Modernization of Indian Special Forces

Holy Triad

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Modernization of special forces is a much bigger and broader topic, which is deserved to be discussed in a open forum.


Even if a certain sof is well equipped,the concept of modernizing it with cutting edge equipment is a constant battle. Such topics deserves a separate thread,and it'll be plenty useful for those wants to get updated on this topic.

Current sf thread plays as a multi purpose thread,which often leads to unnecessary arguments. The way I see it,some people just want to get updates on sf related news, and others more interested in the modernization aspects of it.


Since this thread is solely created on the premises of modernization,everyone can freely express their point of view without derailing the thread.


The ground rule is simple,
Any news,updates,personnel change,pictures,etc can be discussed in the current SF thread.

Any lack of equipments,or the gears you would like to see in the future can be discussed in the modernization thread.



Regards,
 
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Waanar

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Modernization of special forces is a much bigger and broader topic, which is deserved to be discussed in a open forum.


Even if a certain sof is well equipped,the concept of modernizing it with cutting edge equipment is a constant battle. Such topics deserves a separate thread,and it'll be plenty useful for those wants to get updated on this topic.

Current sf thread plays as a multi purpose thread,which often leads to unnecessary arguments. The way I see it,some people just want to get updates on sf related news, and others more interested in the modernization aspects of it.


Since this thread is solely created on the premises of modernization,everyone can freely express their point of view without derailing the thread.


The ground rule is simple,
Any news,updates,personnel change,pictures,etc can be discussed in the current SF thread.

Any lack of equipments,or the gears you would like to see in the future can be discussed in the modernization thread.



Regards,
Too right, buddy.
This was so needed. I am a huge proponent of modernization but yes, was getting irritated (of others as well as myself) on the original SF thread.
Anyways.
I'm going to repost an article and talk about some of it's 'messages'.
If you have any criticism (of my analysis or the article, please pitch in)


US elite forces ill-equipped for cold war with China




Katrina Manson in Washington

16/05/2020
© Provided by The Financial Times
The elite US special operations forces are ill-equipped for high-tech warfare with China and Russia, experts warn, as the Trump administration pivots from the “war on terror” to a struggle with geopolitical rivals.
Special operations, known for kicking down doors and eliminating high-value targets, number 70,000 personnel, cost $13bn a year and have carried much of the burden of the war on terror. But it is unclear what role they will play as the Pentagon moves to redeploy troops from Afghanistan to the Indo-Pacific to counter China’s regional ambitions.
General Richard Clarke, commander of special operations command (Socom), told an industry conference this week that the US needed to develop new capabilities to “compete and win” with Russia and China. He added that Socom must develop cyber skills and focus on influence campaigns rather than “the kill-capture missions” that characterised his own time in Afghanistan after the September 11 2001 attacks. Socom’s fighters include US Navy Seals, Army Green Berets and Marine Corps Raiders.


Defence officials say China has raised military spending and research with the aim of exploiting American vulnerabilities, while Russia has tested out new technology during combat in Syria.

“Maybe we are further behind than we know,” Colonel Michael McGuire, director of combat developments at Socom, told the annual Special Operations Industry Conference. Because of Covid-19 the event was conducted virtually for the first time. “Things just moved much more quickly than we expected,” he said of the new threats, citing the erosion of America’s traditional military advantages in the sky, space and communications.

© Getty Col McGuire highlighted US vulnerabilities in cyber security, and soft-power tactics by America’s enemies that could “drive fissures through some of our alliances”. He proposed shifting focus to defence over attack.

While some military analysts have suggested SOF should take on more of a supporting role and expand their psychological operations, others urge speedier development of new stealth weapons and cutting-edge technology.

Using over 50 factors to determine a country’s PowerIndex score, the Global Firepower 2020 list ranks the most powerful military nations in the world. The list ranks 138 advanced and lesser-developed nations, based on parameters such as geographical location, logistical and financial capabilities, availability of natural resources and military might. Here's a look at the top 50 most powerful military nations according to the list.




“You could have hundreds and thousands of engagements every single day in a fight against China. We are just not fast enough, dynamic enough or scaleable enough to handle that challenge,” said Chris Brose, chief strategy officer at Andruil, a start-up defence technology company, which supplies SOF. He added that satellites could be blinded or shot out of orbit.

© Getty But he said the battle with Beijing would probably fall far short of all-out war. “Most of the US-China competition is not going to be fighting world war three,” he said. “It’s going to be kicking each other under the table.” He cited reconnaissance, influence operations and sabotage.

“It’s not going to be Abbottabad; this is going to look very different,” he said of the 2011 US Navy Seal raid on a Pakistan compound in which al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden was killed.

US special operators have for years had the run of the battlefield. But they face very different conditions in any fight against China, which has developed an arsenal of missiles, fighter jets, spy planes and other eavesdropping and jamming techniques that would make it hard for America to conceal troops, transport and communications.

Special operations forces are not ready for operations against a near-peer foe, such as China, in a direct engagement

Former SOF commander




A former SOF commander said Socom would need to plan operations without GPS or access to satellites, which help with targeting, communications and beaming down intelligence. They would need to develop cheaper, more plentiful and easily replaced equipment in case satellites were shot out of the sky.

“Special operations forces are not ready for operations against a near-peer foe, such as China, in a direct engagement,” the former commander told the Financial Times.

“We need special operations forces to find a way to operate in running gun battles and other scenarios without communications,” he said. He added that units would have to be cut off from higher command and execute plans on the ground with “substantially less oversight than we have practised in the recent war on terror”.

A former SOF intelligence officer said the traditional culture of the troops had been changed by the demand for direct battle in counter-terrorism operations. He called for a return to their cold war roots.





“Vintage special operations forces is about stealth, cunning and being able to blend in — they were triathletes rather than muscle-bound infantrymen with tattoos,” said the former officer. Such attributes, he added, would be more useful in efforts to counter China.

Special operations troops already undergo language training and regularly train, advise and assist foreign militaries in allied countries that face aggressive encroachment from China and Russia.

Tom Mahnken, president of the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments, a Washington DC think-tank, said US special forces needed to “regain proficiency across the spectrum” in order to counter China. However, they were likely to face “gravitational pull” from ongoing counter-terrorism operations, which would remain a priority.

David Maxwell, a former Green Beret and military analyst, is among those who favour a shift towards political warfare. One such idea of his would involve a popular writer being commissioned to pen “the Taiwanese Tom Clancy” — fictionalised war stories based in Taiwan — intended to discourage Beijing from invading the self-governing island.

He told a gathering of Pacific special forces operators in February that fictional losses could “tell the stories of the demise of Chinese soldiers who are the end of their parents’ bloodline”. He argued that Beijing’s former one-child policy could be weaponised to convince China that war would be too costly.

But Mr Maxwell said such ideas have yet to catch on. He added that psyops officers lamented to him that it was “easier to get permission to put a hellfire missile on the forehead of a terrorist than it is to get permission to put an idea between his ears”.


From what I can gather from this, US is going to abandon it's onslaught on Islamic terrorism (or innocence, all the same) for the time being and focus on checking chinese ambitions.
Now, there's a lot of points raised by the article in terms of SOF preparedness and prediction of their roles.
The colonel clearly says things moved too quickly than expected (obviously referencing the pandemic). It mentions SOF being confined to Psy ops, recon etc (rarely if any Direct action).
One point to be noted is that he also says there could be thousands of engagements in a day and they're not agile enough to manage that.
Rest assured, if USA can't manage that, neither can we.
A lot of the article talks of focusing on Cyber warfare with tech savvy SOF operatives.
That's a very important point.

During the invasion of South Abkhazia and South Ossetia, the Russians used cyber warfare and misinformation campaign to terrifying effect. It came to the point that the local populace had no idea the tanks rolling outside were Russian and not Georgian.
Now, if rumors are true, the Russians manipulated the US elections as well and that is (if true) truly a strategic victory of mind blowing proportions. Russia is nothing economically.
If it's able to do it, so should we.

One more interesting caveat though-“We need special operations forces to find a way to operate in running gun battles and other scenarios without communications,” he said. He added that units would have to be cut off from higher command and execute plans on the ground with “substantially less oversight than we have practised in the recent war on terror”.


This is in reference to China's EW and ASAT capability.
When US SOFs operate in Afghanistan or Iraq, they have uninhibited air dominance, secrecy of communication, lack of means of interception of signals by OPFOR. This will not be the case in China.
China's capability extends far beyond the ability to merely knock out and mess up GPS systems in a vicinity (that'd be enough to mess up any protocol US SOFs follow in a COIN environment or against a weak enemy state like Iraq in 2003).

This is where some aspects of our SOFs shine. They're not bound by technology because they never had it in the first place!! (I don't know whether I should laugh or cry)
Radio silence, operating in solitude with minimum contact with higher command etc are somethings which our forces have dealt with on a regular basis.
During the Myanmar raid, the documentary by History TV18 had Bipin Rawat mention the extent of communications with 21 Paras deployed to kill the cadres of NSCN (K).
A simple beep every interval (I think it was around 3 hours. Not sure) to let higher command know they were not dead and that was the extent of all communications throughout the raid. No chatter other than the occasional beep.

Rest assured, our SOFs don't have and never had as comprehensive of a support network of personnel who are constantly on overwatch and taking in live feed of the operation 24/7 like the USA's while also ready to deploy A10s should things go sour.
This does work in our favor (Very mildly but everything counts) as the mindset required out of a SOF operating against a peer force is already there.
Especially this quote- “Vintage special operations forces is about stealth, cunning and being able to blend in — they were triathletes rather than muscle-bound infantrymen with tattoos,” said the former officer. Such attributes, he added, would be more useful in efforts to counter China.

Its almost like he's describing our own troops and dissing his.
Now, moving on,
They talk of political warfare and raise a very interesting point-
He told a gathering of Pacific special forces operators in February that fictional losses could “tell the stories of the demise of Chinese soldiers who are the end of their parents’ bloodline”. He argued that Beijing’s former one-child policy could be weaponised to convince China that war would be too costly.

Now, this is ART!
Transcending cultural boundaries and using their own mindset against them.
Psy ops will be a big part of this cold war, make no mistake.

TL: DR- We need troops proficient in technology, cultural and lingual skills with very high leadership quality (Lacking in soldiers and present in officers as of yet), a comprehensive plan of psychological operations for fanning the flames of dissent and disillusion with CCP and troops with the capability of working in isolation and uncertainty without faltering.
We also might just want to raise a purely Cyber warfare focused unit like the Israeli Unit 8200.
The Chinese outclass us like hell in terms of cyber tech. We need to close the gap.
This article references the return of US SOF community to it's "Cold war roots".
That's the main takeaway. There will be less of room interventions and more of photography while posing as a tourist.
More R&AW and less Ghatak.

I'd recommend you listen to the experiences of this ex Delta operator in West Berlin against the USSR on Jocko's podcast (Great podcast btw. Seriously good stuff to improve your overall quality of life). He begans talking about his recruitment and experiences in Delta by 01:07:20 but I recommend watching it in entirety if you have the time to. Pretty nice.

His experiences will give you a rough idea of the direction of the SOF community if taken out of asymmetric warfare and what SOF operations are like when fighting an equal or stronger foe.

Keep in mind, SOFs will always end up devolving to super infantry whenever a right proper war break out. This is just the roles they need to fill to preempt and set the stage for minimal resistance when the war actually starts.
Very cerebral stuff till it all goes down the gutter and you're kicking down doors.

It was only a matter of time till the new cold war anyways.
I recommend reading up on the cold war to get a better understanding of the situation we're going to be left in till it turns hot, and it WILL turn hot.
I suddenly grew an appetite for Soviet era war manuals.
Who would've guessed all that stuff was just the warm up, eh?:pound::pound::pound:
 
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WARREN SS

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WARREN SS

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It's the utilisation of the budget that matters much more.
Paras seem to waste a ton of it.
They sharing the budget With Regulars jointly

The Budget is in the hand of Corps commanders not CO's

When You create Institution for Specialized roles

AFSOD ,SPG,NSG

There Priority of funds Will be Standardize as It Will be Audited
 

Bhadra

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They sharing the budget With Regulars jointly

The Budget is in the hand of Corps commanders not CO's

When You create Institution for Specialized roles

AFSOD ,SPG,NSG

There Priority of funds Will be Standardize as It Will be Audited
What makes you put down such utter inaccurate information...
If you know nothing it is better t learn.

You certainly are not running disinformation campaigns which have no purpose.. your mind is filled with lot of inaccuracies about the Defence Forces and needs to attend some correction camp sessions ...
 

WARREN SS

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What makes you put down such utter inaccurate information...
If you know nothing it is better t learn.
Allotment few crores To battalion CO is not Now you make Special Ops commence
All Major Procurement Decisions are in the hand of Higher ups in PARA Regiment
For Both Regular Para& Sf battalions



What you need a Dedicated Priority Role based Institution With Authority Independent from Army itself
Similar To US Joint Special Operations Command (JSOC ) or Special Operations Forces of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation (Read What PC Katoch) said


Also
Read Search Paper by Major General Dhruv C Katoch (Retd)

https://archive.claws.in/images/journals_doc/1345211594_DhruvCKatoch.pdf
 

ManhattanProject

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apparently recent pics.
so i wanted to ask about goves, coudnt they get one that they could bot slither and shoot with?
And i understand there is a cutout to shoot from that mitten, but proper gloves would work better right?
And wats up with that vest?

78651c5.png
 

WARREN SS

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Bhadra

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This What we Call arm chair there Is Breed of them in our defense forces Who self entitled

As If there voluntary Services is Some Short Favor To the nation not there Duty

The way he Reduced Thoughts Of A SF Veteran Lt gen Shows How Cultured he is or His Regard for the Institution He proudly Claimed To Serve.
Just tell me in terms of the Armed Forces ... what is more strategic in reality ? Is it the SFC or SOD ?

I wish you to make a choice and not say .. both...
 

Aniruddha Mulay

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I am quite a noob to this topic but now with the AFSOD up and running, would the Para SF be getting a seperate budget like the NSG for their CAPEX??
 

Waanar

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I really liked the vehicle they're using. Seems to be a remote controlled turret. Which vehicle is that?
We should be aiming to develop that for COIN or import it. It makes a lot of sense and minimizes certain risks which are prevalent in urban areas like Kashmir.

Also, the movement of the soldiers in the video below is really fluid. I liked it.
The turks have a good military (if it could just stop couping :p )

From what I could gather, the Turks are succeeding and pretty sorted tactically but looking at the ruins of the town and the Syria like landscape, they're failing pretty terribly in the long term strategic goal of wiping out the insurgency (by winning hearts and minds) or they have already turned the local populace against PKK (doubtful).

Overall, pretty impressive, ain't it?
 

AMCA

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More firepower for Indian Army! To buy small arms for Special Forces from US-based company
“The 7.62 x 51 mm FN Scar, made by a US unit of Belgium’s FN Herstal, is being purchased by the Army under its own financial powers and is roughly around Rs 200-300 crore,” confirmed a source.



NEXT



More firepower for Indian Army! To buy small arms for Special Forces from US-based company

The Indian Army is all set to purchase small arms through a Foreign Military Sales (FMS) route from a US-based firm FN Herstal for the Special Forces (SF). “The 7.62 x 51 mm FN Scar, made by a US unit of Belgium’s FN Herstal, is being purchased by the Army under its own financial powers and is roughly around Rs 200-300 crore,” confirmed a source.
 

WARREN SS

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Old order

Army Para Special Forces Requirements

EquipmentQuantity
Mk 48 light machine guns715
FN Scar (H) assault rifles1,050
Scar (L) / HK-416 assault rifles1,400
FN .50 Cal Browning heavy machine guns110
Helmet mounted night vision goggles400
Combat free fall parachutes600
Barret M107 A1 heavy sniping rifles100
Ammunition rounds20 (M)

 

Gessler

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What makes you put down such utter inaccurate information...
If you know nothing it is better t learn.

You certainly are not running disinformation campaigns which have no purpose.. your mind is filled with lot of inaccuracies about the Defence Forces and needs to attend some correction camp sessions ...
By former Vice COAS Lt. Gen. Vijay Oberoi -

 

Holy Triad

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Vinveli Aerospace Startup by an Indian developed this UAV.


40MM High Explosive Grenade Launcher UAV
+ 10km Secure Control Link
+ Safe and Quick Remote Deployment
+ 40 min Flight time
+ Wind state 6 and Water resistant
+ 40MM HE, HEDP, HEAP, etc. Grenades






Credit: @Karthi

Reposted from:

 

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