Indian Special Forces

[DumbPilot]

Afaik Indians received the British army culture.. in WW1 brits had 90% officer death rate (contrary to common joking)

And the Israelis:

The book is "Maneuver Warfare Handbook", published 1980s. It meant as scientific literature for the US Marine Corps officer who wishes to understand and cope with combat. One of the greatest books on this subject in my opinion

 

[Kumaoni]

I know and even then, he was in the minority. I can only assume that the situation has got only worse over the years.

Back then the quality of officers was far better, so he likely wasn’t in the minority. The officers had far more respect of jawans than they do now

 

[jai jaganath]

lol what? You think good tactics are the results of just good equipment? Then please explain to me how the Assam rifles has the record for gunning down 72 militants in a single operation when they were outnumbered and outgunned, using SLRs against militants with Ak56 assault rifles?

If we are talking about infantry then tactically, yes our infantry is doing decent. It could be doing better, agreed, but it is doing decent given the fact that the army allocates more funds to other arms than basic kitting.

The main issue is that the tactics SOF use are identical to that off infantry, which is why they lose the same amount of men as infantry to holed up militants.

13 RR in 2009 and 10 Para SF in 2016 faced an almost identical situation when they had to deal with two holed up militants. 13 RR lost one Major and one Naik while gunning two dreaded insurgents while 10 Para and 4 Para took 3 KIA. To kill 3 fidayeen in holed up positions. Infantry and SF has zero difference

Nah
Infantry=!sof in practical world
Especially when talking about rr let's not include them in Infantry for time being to avoid confusion
Again Assam rifles isn't sof nor rr
That occurred long ago and no relation with today's scenario
This is the problem of discussion u are hellbent to compare ops of 90s or 2000s to present times
For infantry's performance u don't have any war post 1999 to judge their competency
That's why I say to speak about infantry in sf tread needs a conflict to explain
But if u see training videos they still haven't developed any new training methodologies and continuing the older ones and equipment needless to say
They are are poorly trained and equipped
Regarding tactics used by SF being similar to infantry yes it is
That's why I sat they are poorly trained thus they no find no requirement of mordern and new equipments nor tactics specific to them
It has been iterated by many members that proper sof mentality leads to changes in training which arises the need of mordern equipments thus pushing brain to develope mordern tactics
This is for sof
If u want to talk respective of infantry or Assam rifles pls this is not the thread

 

[jai jaganath]

Well Feb 27th was the result of AF but Galwan was a nationwide humiliation and Indian army effectively became a joke after 2020

Again bro do u have some timeline for meltdown
What's the point of this discussion

 

[Blood+]

Back then the quality of officers was far better, so he likely wasn’t in the minority. The officers had far more respect of jawans than they do now

You could make the argument that there were more like him back then but they were still a minority never the less (I agree with you on this one wholeheartedly by the way). A larger minority is still a minority.

 

[Kumaoni]

Nah
Infantry=!sof in practical world
Especially when talking about rr let's not include them in Infantry for time being to avoid confusion
Again Assam rifles isn't sof nor rr
That occurred long ago and no relation with today's scenario
This is the problem of discussion u are hellbent to compare ops of 90s or 2000s to present times
For infantry's performance u don't have any war post 1999 to judge their competency
That's why I say to speak about infantry in sf tread needs a conflict to explain
But if u see training videos they still haven't developed any new training methodologies and continuing the older ones and equipment needless to say
They are are poorly trained and equipped
Regarding tactics used by SF being similar to infantry yes it is
That's why I sat they are poorly trained thus they no find no requirement of mordern and new equipments nor tactics specific to them
It has been iterated by many members that proper sof mentality leads to changes in training which arises the need of mordern equipments thus pushing brain to develope mordern tactics
This is for sof
If u want to talk respective of infantry or Assam rifles pls this is not the thread

LOL you would be saying the same shit no matter the year we were in. We could be in 1971 and you’d say the same thing. We could be in 1990 and you’d say the same thing. We could be in 2003 and you’d say the same thing. The fact of the matter is that simply modernizing your equipment doesn’t mean you develop new tactics automatically.

So why do people keep bringing US oeprations in 2011 then? I can bring operations from late 2000s and they would still apply because several of the soldiers who joined at that time are still serving.

RR is COIN infantry, as soldiers from battalions usually do tenures in RR then come back to their base units.

And the point in bringing infantry was to highlight that there’s not much difference between Indian infantry and Indian SF. Only thing is Indian SF has more skilled operators, like L nk Mohan Nath Goswami.

 

[Bleh]

lol what? You think good tactics are the results of just good equipment? Then please explain to me how the Assam rifles has the record for gunning down 72 militants in a single operation when they were outnumbered and outgunned, using SLRs against militants with Ak56 assault rifles
If we are talking about infantry then tactically, yes our infantry is doing decent. It could be doing better, agreed, but it is doing decent given the fact that the army allocates more funds to other arms than basic kitting. Like they think T90s are more imrootant than a basic kit

The main issue is that the tactics SOF use are identical to that off infantry, which is why they lose the same amount of men as infantry to holed up militants.

13 RR in 2009 and 10 Para SF in 2016 faced an almost identical situation when they had to deal with two holed up militants. 13 RR lost one Major and one Naik while gunning two dreaded insurgents while 10 Para and 4 Para took 3 KIA. To kill 3 fidayeen in holed up positions. Infantry and SF has zero difference

IMO India's weakness has historically been rigidity towards change, constant betterment & adoption of alterations may be lacking in our forces... That RR & SF who got KIA for ambushed by equally well-trained & equipped during the assault where they didn't know their exact location. Could happen to anyone

 

[Blood+]

lol what? You think good tactics are the results of just good equipment? Then please explain to me how the Assam rifles has the record for gunning down 72 militants in a single operation when they were outnumbered and outgunned, using SLRs against militants with Ak56 assault rifles
If we are talking about infantry then tactically, yes our infantry is doing decent. It could be doing better, agreed, but it is doing decent given the fact that the army allocates more funds to other arms than basic kitting. Like they think T90s are more imrootant than a basic kit

The main issue is that the tactics SOF use are identical to that off infantry, which is why they lose the same amount of men as infantry to holed up militants.

13 RR in 2009 and 10 Para SF in 2016 faced an almost identical situation when they had to deal with two holed up militants. 13 RR lost one Major and one Naik while gunning two dreaded insurgents while 10 Para and 4 Para took 3 KIA. To kill 3 fidayeen in holed up positions. Infantry and SF has zero difference

His point was specifically in regard to the SOFs and not the infantry as a whole, and in that regard, I'd have to agree with that. Tactics and equipment go pretty much hand in hand. Tactics are based on your equipment profile. I mean, think about it for a moment - you can't just hand a soldier a Gen 3 NVG and then expect him to become completely proficient in its use just like that, now can you?? The same goes for his weapon, his armor, and even the load-out setup!

 

[Kumaoni]

Nah
Infantry=!sof in practical world
Especially when talking about rr let's not include them in Infantry for time being to avoid confusion
Again Assam rifles isn't sof nor rr
That occurred long ago and no relation with today's scenario
This is the problem of discussion u are hellbent to compare ops of 90s or 2000s to present times
For infantry's performance u don't have any war post 1999 to judge their competency
That's why I say to speak about infantry in sf tread needs a conflict to explain
But if u see training videos they still haven't developed any new training methodologies and continuing the older ones and equipment needless to say
They are are poorly trained and equipped
Regarding tactics used by SF being similar to infantry yes it is
That's why I sat they are poorly trained thus they no find no requirement of mordern and new equipments nor tactics specific to them
It has been iterated by many members that proper sof mentality leads to changes in training which arises the need of mordern equipments thus pushing brain to develope mordern tactics
This is for sof
If u want to talk respective of infantry or Assam rifles pls this is not the thread

Okay okay fine.

3 PARA SF notched up 58 kills in 2007. And almost 30 more throughout the 2010s in J and K until now, and has suffered only 5 KIA in operations dating back to 2003.

One Kumaon Battalion notched up nearly 100 kills and 300 apprehensions in Assam and NE in 2009-2010, won unit citation.

One Sikh battalion did a spectacular raid in 2017 against Pakistani soldiers in which 3 soldiers were killed.

Good enuf for you? I’ll find some more, here analyze those performances

 

[jai jaganath]

LOL you would be saying the same shit no matter the year we were in. We could be in 1971 and you’d say the same thing. We could be in 1990 and you’d say the same thing. We could be in 2003 and you’d say the same thing. The fact of the matter is that simply modernizing your equipment doesn’t mean you develop new tactics automatically.

So why do people keep bringing US oeprations in 2011 then? I can bring operations from late 2000s and they would still apply because several of the soldiers who joined at that time are still serving.

RR is COIN infantry, as soldiers from battalions usually do tenures in RR then come back to their base units.

And the point in bringing infantry was to highlight that there’s not much difference between Indian infantry and Indian SF. Only thing is Indian SF has more skilled operators, like L nk Mohan Nath Goswami.

The last point sums up the reason of our worse sof condition
Modernization of equipments does improve training and that leads for mordern tactics
Yeah the fact about rr draws its men from infantry is well known but the role I am speaking about
Once the guy leaves rr he doesn't have to dill the role of rr
So comparing rr with both infantry and sof doesn't make sense
It's about role or mandate that a man has to follow
U are not getting why people bring sof ops of western forces to discuss is to show improvements from past and also comparing their equipments and training to ours which is far superior to us in present

 

[Blood+]

IMO India's weakness has historically been rigidity towards change, constant betterment & adoption of alterations may be lacking in our forces... That RR & SF who got KIA for ambushed by equally well-trained & equipped during the assault where they didn't know their exact location. Could happen to anyone

The tragedy could have easily been averted if the troopers had been properly equipped for fighting at night.

 

[Kumaoni]

His point was specifically in regard to the SOFs and not the infantry as a whole, and in that regard, I'd have to agree with that. Tactics and equipment go pretty much hand in hand. Tactics are based on your equipment profile. I mean, think about it for a moment - you can't just hand a soldier a Gen 3 NVG and then expect him to become completely proficient in its use just like that, now can you?? The same goes for his weapon, his armor, and even the load-out setup!

Yeah but equipment can go so far. You give that NVG and how will we know how to properly use it in the right way? Ofc you have retards from Jai Ho claiming that Gen 3 NVG ain’t needed and that they need their balls and carrots to kill terrorists, but what about the man using it?


Equipment, guts: and tactics all play an important hand.

But my point regarding infantry was that infantry and SOF in India is hardly distuingishable

 

[Kumaoni]

The last point sums up the reason of our worse sof condition
Modernization of equipments does improve training and that leads for mordern tactics
Yeah the fact about rr draws its men from infantry is well known but the role I am speaking about
Once the guy leaves rr he doesn't have to dill the role of rr
So comparing rr with both infantry and sof doesn't make sense
It's about role or mandate that a man has to follow
U are not getting why people bring sof ops of western forces to discuss is to show improvements from past and also comparing their equipments and training to ours which is far superior to us in present

But when I show instances of such operations of Indian military it becomes past tense and irrelevant?

IMO India's weakness has historically been rigidity towards change, constant betterment & adoption of alterations may be lacking in our forces... That RR & SF who got KIA for ambushed by equally well-trained & equipped during the assault where they didn't know their exact location. Could happen to anyone

The RR men were kinda isolated and doing peace duties when they were ambushed.

 

[jai jaganath]

Yeah but equipment can go so far. You give that NVG and how will we know how to properly use it in the right way? Ofc you have retards from Jai Ho claiming that Gen 3 NVG ain’t needed and that they need their balls and carrots to kill terrorists, but what about the man using it?


Equipment, guts: and tactics all play an important hand.

But my point regarding infantry was that infantry and SOF in India is hardly distuingishable

Ur last point is again true and that shouldn't be
That's my entire point is tactics used by rr or sometimes infantry shouldn't be similar to sof unlike our case

 

[Blood+]

Yeah but equipment can go so far. You give that NVG and how will we know how to properly use it in the right way?

Dude, that's pretty much what I said!! Yes, you can't give just give someone a piece of equipment and then expect him to become proficient without any proper training. That's precisely what I was trying to say. As far as SOFs are concerned, their training and equipment go hand in hand.

Ofc you have retards from Jai Ho claiming that Gen 3 NVG ain’t needed and that they need their balls and carrots to kill terrorists, but what about the man using it?

Too many for our own good unfortunately.

Equipment, guts: and tactics all play an important hand.

Of course, never said otherwise. I know these men are like titans among us, with attributes I personally will never have and that's exactly why I was so outraged when I came across that footage from those PAFF bastards.

But my point regarding infantry was that infantry and SOF in India is hardly distuingishable

No arguments there, and this needs to be changed in earnest.

 

[Kumaoni]

Anyway my core beliefs on this topic can be summed up as:
1. Indian infantry and Indian SOF is hardly distinguishable
2. Indian SOF reached its Peak in the late 90s and early 2000s and began its decline after 2009 with the rapid, baseless expansion of Para SF
3. Indian SOF operators would take far less casualties and probably zero causalities with proper Night vision capabilities, medical kits, and support in the operations
4. Indian SOF officer cadre has gone down, likes of Maj Sudhir Kumar Walia are simply not in the ranks anymore
5. 9 Para taking 5 KILLED in a single ambush has NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE and speaks volume of the decline of the Indian SF
6. Surgical strike operations have been done by regular infantry (ghatak platoons) in the past, and are a moot point to indian SOF capabilities, although conducting an operation with 100% correctness is quite admirable
7. The only solution is to keep half of Para SF as SF and the rest as airborne infantry, and have some para battalions specifically trained in urban warfare.

 

[Kumaoni]

Dude, that's pretty much what I said!! Yes, you can't give just give someone a piece of equipment and then expect him to become proficient without any proper training. That's precisely what I was trying to say. As far as SOFs are concerned, their training and equipment go hand in hand.

Too many for our own good unfortunately.


Of course, never said otherwise. I know these men are like titans among us, with attributes I personally will never have and that's exactly why I was so outraged when I came across that footage from those PAFF bastards.

No arguments there, and this needs to be changed in earnest.

Well you can also be well trained in whatever shitty equipment you have, but you will only be well trained in your shitty equipment and not in modern equipment

 

[jai jaganath]

His point was specifically in regard to the SOFs and not the infantry as a whole, and in that regard, I'd have to agree with that. Tactics and equipment go pretty much hand in hand. Tactics are based on your equipment profile. I mean, think about it for a moment - you can't just hand a soldier a Gen 3 NVG and then expect him to become completely proficient in its use just like that, now can you?? The same goes for his weapon, his armor, and even the load-out setup!

Yeah ofc
When u give someone a mordern nvg without proper training then the tactic particular will deploy will be different from a guy who is properly trained with particular nvg and knows how to use it to full potential
Same for everything as u suggested
That's why many members here don't agree that mordern equipments will modernize our sof
We need training which is basically based on the equipments and capabilities they have thus developing new tactics to increase efficiency

 

[Blood+]

Yeah ofc
When u give someone a mordern nvg without proper training then the tactic particular will deploy will be different from a guy who is properly trained with particular nvg and knows how to use it to full potential
Same for everything as u suggested
That's why many members here don't agree that mordern equipments will modernize our sof
We need training which is basically based on the equipments and capabilities they have thus developing new tactics to increase efficiency

Absolutely.

 

[Blood+]

Well you can also be well trained in whatever shitty equipment you have, but you will only be well trained in your shitty equipment and not in modern equipment

Pretty much. Now certain aspects of training will never remain the same regardless of your equipment profile, for example endurance and strength training, basic squad tactics (so that you don't end up nailing your buddies in the back), patrolling, laying of ambushes etc. and in those regards, our lads are second to none.
It's the other stuffs that we have drastically fallen behind due to our own incompetence.