Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[karn]

So much word salad by CAS. But regarding there main asset fighter aircrafts they remain clueless as ever. Still only one solution foreign MRFA and nothing else in pipeline for a long time .
Funds for mk2 coming this late.

No movement on tankers. Su30mki radar upgrade no sign.

Only upgraded networks and Sam installations are saving grace.

They don't want to look more at porkies yet soon enough they'll have their squadron strength down to the number of porkies air force. While chinese catching up to USAF.

You just need to find important words in said word salad.

 

[NoobWannaLearn]

So theatarisation is going to happen maybe a bit late but it will right?

 

[NoobWannaLearn]

Should Indian take it?

 

[Flying Dagger]

I am glad our Air Chief has more than 2-functioning brain cells, which is good news because many people in the defense echelons advocating for Tu-160s do not.



Su-30MKI Radar upgrade is only possible when DRDO comes up with scaled-up Uttam Mk2, which I guess should be around 2026 ? So expect upgrades to start by 2030 only.

Yes but a small batch 4 Sqd around in number, need to be upgraded asap.

Should Indian take it?

Depends on the workshare and tot sharing. I don't know how much we will be able to negotiate for ourselves . But do sound good but costly as they don't have French or German support.

 

[gajapati.]

 

[Dark Sorrow]

I am glad our Air Chief has more than 2-functioning brain cells, which is good news because many people in the defense echelons advocating for Tu-160s do not.

No one in who matters in defense echelons ever considered Tu-160. Not even for SFC.
It was defense entertainment channels, arm-chair analyst and journalist on pay for import lobby harping on the wet dram of Tu-160.
The entire Tu-160 saga was for some people a means to increase their social media influence and appeal.
In the height of Tu-160 saga their were some people claiming we are in talks or should be in talks for B1B and should also consider B-21 or PAK-DA.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Su-30MKI Radar upgrade is only possible when DRDO comes up with scaled-up Uttam Mk2, which I guess should be around 2026 ? So expect upgrades to start by 2030 only.

Let Uttam Mk1 be certified for operation on Tejas. Not all modes are operational.
Even upscaled Uttam Mk1 will be okay.
Uttam Mk2 will take a lot of time as we will be moving from GaAs process to GaN process.

 

[IndianHawk]

For Su-30MKI ew upgrades have been started like rwr and other esm made by drdo being installed in mkis
Navachakshu is progressing and other upgrades will take place in phased manner and completely indigenously
Radar cockpit will be last phase I feel along with hud if hal and iaf intends to
But Su-30MKI upgradation is going on
I feel by 2030-32 many major upgrades of mkis would have been completed

Radar is the most important upgrade. Aesa will make it jamproof , may provide electronic attack capabilities.

Aesa will add terrain mapping mode for low flying penetration mission .

 

[mist_consecutive]

US Army grounds workhorse Chinook helicopter - Times of India

US News: The US Army has grounded its fleet of workhorse H-47 Chinook helicopters, an icon of US wars from Vietnam to the Middle East, after several experience

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

We too have faced occasional engine problems in Chinook.

 

[mist_consecutive]

Let Uttam Mk1 be certified for operation on Tejas. Not all modes are operational.
Even upscaled Uttam Mk1 will be okay.
Uttam Mk2 will take a lot of time as we will be moving from GaAs process to GaN process.

Uttam Mk1's initial performance puts it into the same ballpark range as Flanker's BARS radar (of course, except for all the AESA niches like frequency hopping, anti-jamming, etc.). We need something like AN/APG-77 with a massive range of 300+ km for MKIs.

 

[IndianHawk]

Uttam Mk1's initial performance puts it into the same ballpark range as Flanker's BARS radar (of course, except for all the AESA niches like frequency hopping, anti-jamming, etc.). We need something like AN/APG-77 with a massive range of 300+ km for MKIs.

That comes with size . Uttam is scalable.

 

[IndianHawk]

You just need to find important words in said word salad.
View attachment 169664

If budget is their priority why are the so hell bent upon 114 MRFA. 114 rafale will cost 28 billion USD. How will they fund anything else then su30 upgrade , mwf , AMCA , lch , tapas ??

If they were serious about budget they would buy 36 more rafales and move on with mwf. Perhaps order a few more mk1a to arrest shortfall faster with another production line.

But no they will cry about budget for everything while crying for 114 foreign maal.

 

[mist_consecutive]

If budget is their priority why are the so hell bent upon 114 MRFA. 114 rafale will cost 28 billion USD. How will they fund anything else then su30 upgrade , mwf , AMCA , lch , tapas ??

If they were serious about budget they would buy 36 more rafales and move on with mwf. Perhaps order a few more mk1a to arrest shortfall faster with another production line.

But no they will cry about budget for everything while crying for 114 foreign maal.

This path of thinking, that the Armed forces are always trying to do some corruption needs to be re-evaluated by a lot of members here.

If budget is their priority why are the so hell bent upon 114 MRFA. 114 rafale will cost 28 billion USD. How will they fund anything else then su30 upgrade , mwf , AMCA , lch , tapas ??

Budget is not the priority, it is the restriction. Priority is safeguarding Indian interests and protecting our skies, which is the mission of IAF.

Regarding budget, as I have already clarified in this post, IAF has a 5 Bn$ annual budget for the purchase, however, this can be increased/decreased per year according to tri-service purchase requirements.

France delivered 36 Rafales in 4 years, which gives an average rate of 9-10 Rafales per year. So that means 114 MRFA (given we select Rafale), will be delivered in around 11 years timeline. So, the 28 Bn $ purchase price is divided into 11 years each, giving 2.5 Bn $ per year, which is not unreasonable.

If they were serious about budget they would buy 36 more rafales and move on with mwf. Perhaps order a few more mk1a to arrest shortfall faster with another production line.

Let's not forget why IAF wants 114 MRFA, it is to upscale our squadron strength to the required levels. Now that it has been made clear that LCA Mk2 won't be starting production anytime before 2030, whereas 83 LCA Mk1A will be delivered by 2028.

Even with that, we will be critically short of airpower in the 2024 - 2032 timeline. We need something to offset this disadvantage while giving a comfortable margin for AMCA & LCA Mk2 to realize its full potential. MRFA will probably be the last lot of foreign jets we will ever purchase.

 

[mist_consecutive]

But no they will cry about budget for everything while crying for 114 foreign maal.

(2008)
IAF : We are falling short of aircraft, while Pakistan & China are acquiring more advanced aircraft. We need 126 latest 4+ gen. fighters to maintain credible offense & defense capability.
GoI : Alright, start 126 MMRCA.

(2012)
IAF : Hey, we finalized Rafale, can we buy it ?
GoI : Yeah sure, but our illiterate child HAL has to manufacture it.
Dassault : WTF, no not possible, HAL can't make a complex jet like Rafale.
GoI : Well too bad, the deal is off.
IAF : Umm, but we still need more jets, and China has already started making J-20s.
GoI : Lol too bad dude, go buy some jets from our scrap-seller uncle Rusia.

<==== Govt. Changes ====>

(2014)
IAF : Can we buy Rafales now ?
GoI : Yeah sure, kitne deti hai ?
Dassault : Don't know, but we just increased the price by 100%
GoI : Oh, we hoped you would give us Rafales for cheap, plus we will throw some Modi hugs.
IAF : I have no hope left (Buys some more outdated Flankers from scrap-dealer Rusia)

<==== China squats on Doklam ====>

(2017)
GoI : Cool, I think we need to buy Rafales.
IAF : Told you.
GoI: Hey France, give us 36 Rafales.
IAF : WTF, we need 100+ jets, this is not going to change anything. Our jets are old and outdated.
GoI : No money, honey. Also, we will be rolling 1000+ Cr. freebie schemes to get more votes from poor people.

(2019)
GoI : Go strike Pakistan.
IAF : Yeah, but we are not prepared, we need 4+ gen. jets, our Mig-21s are outdated long back.
GoI : Did I fucking stutter ?

<==== PAF strikes back at J&K, Abhinandan captured====>

GoI: Ohh shieet, if we had Rafale this could have been different.
IAF:

<==== 2022 ====>

IAF : We urgently need MRFA to offset our current squadron strength. Pakistan is getting 4+ gen. jets and China already has advanced 4.5 Gen. and 5th Gen jets with advanced AD layers.
DFI Fanbois : Yeah yeah, corrupt IAF, we know this is work of Chandigarh lobby. How about you buy MWF which is going to start production tentatively only 8 years from now ?

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

This path of thinking, that the Armed forces are always trying to do some corruption needs to be re-evaluated by a lot of members here.



Budget is not the priority, it is the restriction. Priority is safeguarding Indian interests and protecting our skies, which is the mission of IAF.

Regarding budget, as I have already clarified in this post, IAF has a 5 Bn$ annual budget for the purchase, however, this can be increased/decreased per year according to tri-service purchase requirements.

France delivered 36 Rafales in 4 years, which gives an average rate of 9-10 Rafales per year. So that means 114 MRFA (given we select Rafale), will be delivered in around 11 years timeline. So, the 28 Bn $ purchase price is divided into 11 years each, giving 2.5 Bn $ per year, which is not unreasonable.



Let's not forget why IAF wants 114 MRFA, it is to upscale our squadron strength to the required levels. Now that it has been made clear that LCA Mk2 won't be starting production anytime before 2030, whereas 83 LCA Mk1A will be delivered by 2028.

Even with that, we will be critically short of airpower in the 2024 - 2032 timeline. We need something to offset this disadvantage while giving a comfortable margin for AMCA & LCA Mk2 to realize its full potential. MRFA will probably be the last lot of foreign jets we will ever purchase.

IAF annual CAPEX is close to $7-8 Billion, not $5 Billion. But that is being used for MAFI and AD upgrades also, so yeah, fighter procurement budget is much less than that.

All this nonsense could have been avoided had we just gone ahead with the original MMRCA purchase instead of lowering the order to 36 Rafale.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

(2008)
IAF : We are falling short of aircraft, while Pakistan & China are acquiring more advanced aircraft. We need 126 latest 4+ gen. fighters to maintain credible offense & defense capability.
GoI : Alright, start 126 MMRCA.

(2012)
IAF : Hey, we finalized Rafale, can we buy it ?
GoI : Yeah sure, but our illiterate child HAL has to manufacture it.
Dassault : WTF, no not possible, HAL can't make a complex jet like Rafale.
GoI : Well too bad, the deal is off.
IAF : Umm, but we still need more jets, and China has already started making J-20s.
GoI : Lol too bad dude, go buy some jets from our scrap-seller uncle Rusia.

<==== Govt. Changes ====>

(2014)
IAF : Can we buy Rafales now ?
GoI : Yeah sure, kitne deti hai ?
Dassault : Don't know, but we just increased the price by 100%
GoI : Oh, we hoped you would give us Rafales for cheap, plus we will throw some Modi hugs.
IAF : I have no hope left (Buys some more outdated Flankers from scrap-dealer Rusia)

<==== China squats on Doklam ====>

(2017)
GoI : Cool, I think we need to buy Rafales.
IAF : Told you.
GoI: Hey France, give us 36 Rafales.
IAF : WTF, we need 100+ jets, this is not going to change anything. Our jets are old and outdated.
GoI : No money, honey. Also, we will be rolling 1000+ Cr. freebie schemes to get more votes from poor people.

(2019)
GoI : Go strike Pakistan.
IAF : Yeah, but we are not prepared, we need 4+ gen. jets, our Mig-21s are outdated long back.
GoI : Did I fucking stutter ?

<==== PAF strikes back at J&K, Abhinandan captured====>

GoI: Ohh shieet, if we had Rafale this could have been different.
IAF:

<==== 2022 ====>

IAF : We urgently need MRFA to offset our current squadron strength. Pakistan is getting 4+ gen. jets and China already has advanced 4.5 Gen. and 5th Gen jets with advanced AD layers.
DFI Fanbois : Yeah yeah, corrupt IAF, we know this is work of Chandigarh lobby. How about you buy MWF which is going to start production tentatively only 8 years from now ?

I think IAF needs to start revising the 42 squadron limit upwards right now because its going to be a while before GoI accepts the need for this and Chinese are building new airfields by the day eroding our advantage there. If IAF first waits to achieve 42 squadrons and then starts talking about how 42 ain't enough, its going to lead to pointless delays. And this way, both MWF and MRFA can be justified. Just 7 squadrons of AMCA won't be enough at all either.

 

[IndianHawk]

(2008)
IAF : We are falling short of aircraft, while Pakistan & China are acquiring more advanced aircraft. We need 126 latest 4+ gen. fighters to maintain credible offense & defense capability.
GoI : Alright, start 126 MMRCA.

(2012)
IAF : Hey, we finalized Rafale, can we buy it ?
GoI : Yeah sure, but our illiterate child HAL has to manufacture it.
Dassault : WTF, no not possible, HAL can't make a complex jet like Rafale.
GoI : Well too bad, the deal is off.
IAF : Umm, but we still need more jets, and China has already started making J-20s.
GoI : Lol too bad dude, go buy some jets from our scrap-seller uncle Rusia.

<==== Govt. Changes ====>

(2014)
IAF : Can we buy Rafales now ?
GoI : Yeah sure, kitne deti hai ?
Dassault : Don't know, but we just increased the price by 100%
GoI : Oh, we hoped you would give us Rafales for cheap, plus we will throw some Modi hugs.
IAF : I have no hope left (Buys some more outdated Flankers from scrap-dealer Rusia)

<==== China squats on Doklam ====>

(2017)
GoI : Cool, I think we need to buy Rafales.
IAF : Told you.
GoI: Hey France, give us 36 Rafales.
IAF : WTF, we need 100+ jets, this is not going to change anything. Our jets are old and outdated.
GoI : No money, honey. Also, we will be rolling 1000+ Cr. freebie schemes to get more votes from poor people.

(2019)
GoI : Go strike Pakistan.
IAF : Yeah, but we are not prepared, we need 4+ gen. jets, our Mig-21s are outdated long back.
GoI : Did I fucking stutter ?

<==== PAF strikes back at J&K, Abhinandan captured====>

GoI: Ohh shieet, if we had Rafale this could have been different.
IAF:

<==== 2022 ====>

IAF : We urgently need MRFA to offset our current squadron strength. Pakistan is getting 4+ gen. jets and China already has advanced 4.5 Gen. and 5th Gen jets with advanced AD layers.
DFI Fanbois : Yeah yeah, corrupt IAF, we know this is work of Chandigarh lobby. How about you buy MWF which is going to start production tentatively only 8 years from now ?

Ok so why are they not ordering 40 more mk1a which is already flight testing. And will start delivery soon . It will only cost 3 billion USD. Add another production line.

Because this MRFA / rafale again isn't coming anytime soon either if they award it next year by magic first jet won't be delivered by 2026. Then as you said 11 per year delivery means we will be buying rafale till 2037!!! If you make in India it will take even more time and it will cost way more what 36 from France cost ! ( Add make in India and inflation of 10 years ) .

So Even if mk2 comes after 2030 it will come parallel to rafale from 2030-2037. Why not increase numbers for it then . From 6 sq to 10 squadron. It is planned at 24 per year increase order and make it 30 per year have enough time from now to get supply chain in order.

Buy two more squadrons of rafale for a total of 72 and be done with it.

But they won't do it.

 

[karn]

Ok so why are they not ordering 40 more mk1a which is already flight testing. And will start delivery soon . It will only cost 3 billion USD. Add another production line.

Because this MRFA / rafale again isn't coming anytime soon either if they award it next year by magic first jet won't be delivered by 2026. Then as you said 11 per year delivery means we will be buying rafale till 2037!!! If you make in India it will take even more time and it will cost way more what 36 from France cost ! ( Add make in India and inflation of 10 years ) .

So Even if mk2 comes after 2030 it will come parallel to rafale from 2030-2037. Why not increase numbers for it then . From 6 sq to 10 squadron. It is planned at 24 per year increase order and make it 30 per year have enough time from now to get supply chain in order.

Buy two more squadrons of rafale for a total of 72 and be done with it.

But they won't do it.

Mk1A is not a replacement for the Rafale. The IAF has maintained this position since the original MMRCA and the mk2 that does come close in that category is 8 years away minimum from being flown by the IAF.
As far as the IAF is concerned , why spend extra money on mk1A if it delays MRFA ?
The failure to not finish MMRCA and the delay of MRFA lie with the GOI not the airforce.
And don't forget there will be some time eaten by price negotiations on mk2 as well. Like it was for the mk1A.
I agree on the point that there should be no further competition... the IAF should cite the results of MMRCA and just buy more Rafale.

 

[IndianHawk]

Mk1A is not a replacement for the Rafale. The IAF has maintained this position since the original MMRCA and the mk2 that does come close in that category is 8 years away minimum from being flown by the IAF.
As far as the IAF is concerned , why spend extra money on mk1A if it delays MRFA ?
The failure to not finish MMRCA and the delay of MRFA lie with the GOI not the airforce.
And don't forget there will be some time eaten by price negotiations on mk2 as well. Like it was for the mk1A.
I agree on the point that there should be no further competition... the IAF should cite the results of MMRCA and just buy more Rafale.

They had to replace 200+ mig21 with lca. So mk1a number can be increased without touching anything in medium category.

We never had budget for 126 rafale . Perhaps for 126 Mirage. If they wanted 126 jets in one go they should have ordered f16 or gripen to be honest.

With rafale they should've kept the numbers limited to 80 then probably we could have had a deal in one go.

Anyway water under the bridge.

Problem is that IAF isn't looking at batches procurement of rafale as suggested by even previous CDS rawat. They are still adamant for 114 MRFA in one go and hence whole re tender.
Meanwhile squadron strength is dropping.
And nothing else is really moving.

 

[karn]

They had to replace 200+ mig21 with lca. So mk1a number can be increased without touching anything in medium category.

We never had budget for 126 rafale . Perhaps for 126 Mirage. If they wanted 126 jets in one go they should have ordered f16 or gripen to be honest.

With rafale they should've kept the numbers limited to 80 then probably we could have had a deal in one go.

Anyway water under the bridge.

Problem is that IAF isn't looking at batches procurement of rafale as suggested by even previous CDS rawat. They are still adamant for 114 MRFA in one go and hence whole re tender.
Meanwhile squadron strength is dropping.
And nothing else is really moving.

Replacing mig 21 with tejas 1 to 1 is just theory. The IAF procurement plan circa MMRCA has been pretty clear on what they require.
The gripen and f 16 did not even pass till the L1 stage .
The IAFs way of adjusting to the constraint of the budget is to buy 2nd hand mig 29s and a few more su 30s.
And doing jugaard like buying phased out mirage 2000s for spare parts (fuck that was embarrassing).
What they require has been spelt out .. giving them less is setting them up for failure. The issue is of budget.. The IAF would love to have the mk2 ready to induct today, the need for MRFA would be a different discussion then.