India China LAC & International Border Discussions

[Prakshepak]

Look now who is talking
Man Mohan Singh

 

[vampyrbladez]

View attachment 50910

Still using the word casualties.

Inki fati padi hai. We have documentation and evidence of casualties.

 

[here2where]

Chinks are worse than bengaluru reddys on land grabbing....

How China channelled Galwan river to claim territory

How China channelled Galwan river to claim territory

China has recently claimed the entire Galwan Valley as its own. New Delhi rejects Beijing's claims. But a deeper analysis of satellite imagery shows China also altered the Galwan river's ecosystem to claim the area.

www.indiatoday.in

 

[tarunraju]

View attachment 50910

Still using the word casualties.

If Indian Army puts out Chinese casualties, backed by IR satellite footage and on-ground video, there will be a coup in Beijing.

They didn't do India a favor by not releasing the scale of their casualties, they did themselves one.

 

[captscooby81]

Disgusting unwarranted and seriously stooping way low from all the sides , Its time Veterans use their calmer side of brain and stay away from these social media shit fights seriously they are degrading the army which they served nothing else . What is the need to take dig at someone because he is from OTA and SSC and he didn't attend DSSC courses . Bloody its the Indian army which runs OTA and SSC its you who said not able to train so many officers through NDA routes lets take some lateral entry . If you are going to look down someone in our own forces because he didn't come to NDA and not belonging to few of our stupid squadrons like charlie alpha bla bla then better don't take him in army at all . This was there for long NDA ones feeling they are best and looking down ones from OTA and other SSC .

What kind of fucking example these veterans are trying to set . What will a guy preparing for OTA will think of himself when he feels this is how PC officers think about SSC ?

Its seriously nuts veterans taking political sides and then involving in such mud slinging because their views are different .

Brig Sandy had enough shit on his hands he run away deleting his tweets when Col Hunny of TSD took him to cleaners for his role in the leaks to media . They all have some shit to hide so they find someone else and keep throwing shit on them .

And then there are few junks called Army brats jump right in it as if they were polishing their boots of their fathers in the war zone and know the strategy of every military move and go one lecturing even veterans in social media .

This journo Man singh was another such army brat who tries to push his points using his fathers credentials (remember he was that guy who posted video of army major giving a speech or poem in little drunk state in uniform and breaking the glass on his forehead after the poem) he started questioning what type of officers army keep these days, BC khud army join nahi kiya but keep taking dig at others .

I don't know in any other country we have veterans who are having such shit show especially when enemy is at the gates . Even paki guys behave far better i think as they have unit . Here we have ghanta unity everyone wants his ego massage some go to Rndtv and some go to Ropublic and start shouting at each other .

Totally uncalled for.

 

[afako]

The 5 times GDP and 3 times arms spending did not prevent China from collecting 43 dead bodies and many more.

These fools still do not understand mountain warfare where their propogandu and nice feeling stronky pictures of well fed clothed and trained PLA soldiers in East China and transferred at short notice to Galwan isn't going to win war with fist or gun.

 

[Flint]

It's good. i'd be worried if they were all hunky-dory and agreeing with each other.

 

[IndiaRising]

Disgusting unwarranted and seriously stooping way low from all the sides , Its time Veterans use their calmer side of brain and stay away from these social media shit fights seriously they are degrading the army which they served nothing else . What is the need to take dig at someone because he is from OTA and SSC and he didn't attend DSSC courses . Bloody its the Indian army which runs OTA and SSC its you who said not able to train so many officers through NDA routes lets take some lateral entry . If you are going to look down someone in our own forces because he didn't come to NDA and not belonging to few of our stupid squadrons like charlie alpha bla bla then better don't take him in army at all . This was there for long NDA ones feeling they are best and looking down ones from OTA and other SSC .

What kind of fucking example these veterans are trying to set . What will a guy preparing for OTA will think of himself when he feels this is how PC officers think about SSC ?

Its seriously nuts veterans taking political sides and then involving in such mud slinging because their views are different .

Brig Sandy had enough shit on his hands he run away deleting his tweets when Col Hunny of TSD took him to cleaners for his role in the leaks to media . They all have some shit to hide so they find someone else and keep throwing shit on them .

And then there are few junks called Army brats jump right in it as if they were polishing their boots of their fathers in the war zone and know the strategy of every military move and go one lecturing even veterans in social media .

This journo Man singh was another such army brat who tries to push his points using his fathers credentials (remember he was that guy who posted video of army major giving a speech or poem in little drunk state in uniform and breaking the glass on his forehead after the poem) he started questioning what type of officers army keep these days, BC khud army join nahi kiya but keep taking dig at others .

I don't know in any other country we have veterans who are having such shit show especially when enemy is at the gates . Even paki guys behave far better i think as they have unit . Here we have ghanta unity everyone wants his ego massage some go to Rndtv and some go to Ropublic and start shouting at each other .

In Major Arya’s case, he left army due to medical reason. He was given honorable discharge, yet they throw muck at him because they can’t stand anyone challenging their status as the torchbearers of military insight for the dumb civilians.

 

[johnq]

Problem is we allowed them. For so long the political leadership were literal traitors. All they wanted was to cover their asses and sit in their thumbs. This govt is a lot different. At least we took this head on and are not backing down.
ANI consistently reports migs, sukhois, apaches, chinook in Ladakh now... ideas distributed shows artilleries moving in to the area. That is by no means a deescalation.

This is military chest thumping. India’s daring the chinks. This has not been done before. If it was the congress schmicks in power, they would ha e withdrawn troops altogether. Something a lot of people are forgetting.

The Chinese have already built permanent fortified buildings several kms deep into Indian territory in Galwan Valley area, Pangong Tso area and elsewhere. India has to blow up these buildings via missiles first, in order to restore status quo. The Chinese took advantage of a lull in Indian deployment due to their Coronavirus in order to construct these buildings.

 

[afako]

Happy Fathers Day

 

[sydsnyper]

We’ve surrenderd more in the last decade and a half. A few pages back I posted a tweet that has all the passes surrendered quietly during congress rule.

Can you point me to that post.

 

[Sridhar_TN]

The Chinese have already built permanent fortified buildings several kms deep into Indian territory in Galwan Valley area, Pangong Tso area and elsewhere. India has to blow up these buildings via missiles first, in order to restore status quo. The Chinese took advantage of a lull in Indian deployment due to their Coronavirus in order to construct these buildings.

Here’s the deal. These structures are not permanent. Can be dismantled. The fortification is something that is arguable, because various sources point out that these are not fortified.

We can also build the same now. There’s no one stopping us. We’ve completed all our bridges and the roads will be finished. Building fortified structures will not take long. It takes political will. Looking at the previous 2 weeks events, we can build them. Non issue.

Yes, their positions will have to be destroyed. Air strikes. Only way. Precision air strikes. When there’s war , the strikes will happen. Otherwise, we’re just going to have to wait to see what this goi is going to do.
Like I said Before, there is a lot of firepower amassed at Ladakh. They aren’t there just for show.

 

[johnq]

Hmmm...the Chinese J-20s are supposed to be '5th generation stealth fighters' but are lit up like Christmas trees on radar screens?? WTF? Lol! Nuff said!!

The J-20 and other stealth fighters can still be detected via long wave radar. The J-20's big weakness is its heat signature from those massive engines used to keep this flying brick in the air. You can set up an ambush with several fighters firing heat-seeking missiles like Abhinandan did with the F-16.

 

[scatterStorm]

Let's focus on what's happening next. Some interesting things have started happening specially WTO level.
Is this the start of the fall of China?


The Indian Army administered a crushing defeat to the invading Chinese People's Liberation Army, which hides its true high casualty numbers desperately trying to save face. U.S. Secretary of State Pompeo clearly blamed China for escalating border tensions.https://bit.ly/37OhaJF
https://t.co/7kYozs1Ocm

China is in a downward spiral. First, the Indian Army defeats China in the Galwan Valley, now China loses to the European Union in a World Trade Organization dispute. https://bit.ly/37K95Wl

Historic defeat: Chinese Communist Party loses WTO dispute to European Union

The Chinese Communist Party lost its so-called market economy status in a dispute with the European ...

thebl.com

The Chinese Communist Party lost its so-called market economy status in a dispute with the European Union (EU) at the World Trade Organization (WTO) that is considered historic.

For four years the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) tried to force the EU to recognize it as a market economy, a case which it had already lost last year by a provisional decision, and which now stands firm, as Bloomberg pointed out on June 16. The EU argued that the CCP heavily subsidized its industries, in particular, the steel and aluminum industries, which made its sales prices on the international market unfair.

As a result of the decision, the EU and the United States will be able to apply high “anti-dumping” tariffs to goods from the CCP, in order to protect their industries. The CCP was accused of applying the system known as “dumping,” which offers products at a much lower price than the real one and damages the economies of the importing countries, and then takes over the market and raises prices.

U.S. Trade Representative Robert Lighthizer called the case the “most serious WTO dispute.”

Even President Donald Trump himself warned the WTO to take a good look at the situation, otherwise, his country could withdraw from the organization. In the process the CCP “lost so much that they didn’t want the world to see the panel’s reasoning,” said one knowledgeable official, quoted by Reuters.

“They were going to win something, but they were overshadowed by the big defeat they had in the main suit,” the official added. Recent research shows that the CCP has infiltrated many international organizations, including the UN and the world’s major financial institutions, such as the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund, and the Inter-American Development Bank.

Within this framework, the action of the World Health Organization is highlighted, accused of irregularities and complicity with the CCP in its handling of the CCP Virus pandemic, which is causing death and economic losses as it passes through the world.


View attachment 50876

They are now royally f**** from all sides. Which means, to save face, they well either fall into there own internal pressure or escalate. They have to save face. Escalation may be imminent.

 

[afako]

Meanwhile another front being worked out:

 

[Kumata]

I think we Engineers and IT workers should also contribute. @Bhumihar @ezsasa @indiatester @Kumata

I know we are not much as we are not coordinated and what not's. Just with the basics first.

Not sure whats the context but anything ....let me know over PM

 

[Sridhar_TN]

Can you point me to that post.

India China LAC & International Border Discussions

Big Sports tournaments to ban chicom brands from sponsorship.

defenceforumindia.com

 

[Bhadra]

It’s hard to believe the blindness to the events that has taken place and people calling every single move as bending over backwards. This is the kind of war mongering attitude that will drive you into a brick wall.

The present GOI has not betrayed or bent over backwards for anyone. This is the only govt in 60 odd years that has stood up to China in doklam in another country’s turf . Let that sink in.

The present situation with the Chinese is that there are NO Chinese’s troops in Indian territory. How difficult is that to get Through your heads. When the Galwan clashes happened, the all party meet statement has clearly conveyed that this who killed 20 Indian troops have been punished equally. Intelligence assessment from around the world peg the Chinese casualties at 30 plus.

We are not withdrawing from the leh Ladakh areas. THAT would be bending over backwards. On the CONTRARY, we have amassed more troops, tanks , fighter jets and attack helis to the border. THAT is called resolve. Not bending over backwards. We have amassed so much troops at the border that we’ve ensured even in the future, no such drama can take place regardless of who is in power.
This is not the Congress govt to bend over backwards.

With regards to the statement that modi made, the mea released a clarification immediately after saying his words are being taken out of context. I’ve explained this before. You don’t go to war because you feel like it. You go to war when you’re sure you can win. On the contrary You defend whenever war is thrust upon you. And we defended.

Re =read the write up in which an attempt has been to understand India China border issue in institutional framework of Indian governments in he past,

It is not anywhere a commentary on the present state of affairs.

I can not help if you did not read it properly and just jumped to respond based on your preset mindset.

Come ahead point by point.

 

[scatterStorm]

Thanks to RaviB, a BRF poster -
Part 2 and conclusion of previous post

How China sees itself

• China is not a Communist country: It is a country ruled by a communist party, that's the extent of its communism. In some ways it is like Post-Soviet republics of the USSR with a hyper-capitalist, robber baron, crony capitalist oligarchy.
• It is a Han nation. All other minorities get to wear regional costumes like dressed up monkeys when the attend a few congresses in Beijing, but they are second class. This is seen in their repression of Tibetans and Uyghurs. Partly, they want to cilvilise (or make Han) these barbarians practicing strange religions, and stuck in the past.
• China is a modern civilised country (almost western). Think Meiji restoration Japan, think Singapore. See the CCP functionaries wearing western suits, with CCP badges.
• China is on its way to restoring its place as the centre of the world. The USA is an obstacle it will need to overcome for this.
• The CCP has the mandate of heaven. All Chinese emperors needed to have this, otherwise someone with the mandate would usurp their place. CCP is the current dynasty and Xi is the current emperor (for life). Everything becomes a lot clearer when China is seen in its imperial tradition.
• China is orderly and stable. At the moment. The typical condition of China over the past 200 years has been of disorder. The Taiping rebellion, civil war, cultural revolution, etc. So finally the CCP has brought order. Order is way more important than "freedom". Freedom is something they know from Hollywood, not really for China but maybe its worth visiting Disneyworld to see what it's like.
• China is corrupt to the core and the CCP is the heart of this corruption. This is something most people find terrible and all the protests and opposition are inevitably protests against corrupt petty functionaries. But to get rid of corruption, you have to get rid of the CCP and if you get rid of the CCP, China wouldn't function. At the moment corruption is not as ostentatious as before. People are keeping their heads down because Xi was collecting heads to stabilise his rule. Since everyone is corrupt, everyone was afraid of his anti-corruption drive.
• China is a merchant empire. The CCP to sustain its corruption needs heavy trade. If the size of the pie shrinks, there will be infighting. Which will weaken its hold.
• CCP has two enemies The Chinese People and the USA. The fall of the USSR has been the biggest nightmare of the CCP, and both these factors are thought to have played a role. The CCP spends a very substantial amount on internal security, according to some accounts as much as on external security.
• China has 3 classes: Peasants (the majority, who nowadays are usually migrant workers); the nouveau riche and the rulers CCP. All three are afraid of each other. The newly rich are happy, obedient and scared to lose what they have, send their children to study abroad and hope to migrate to USA; the worker/peasants are the ones who cause disturbances and are in terrible shape. The rulers are insanely rich, insanely corrupt and insanely paranoid, everyone has at least 2 different passports for their children, apart from the chinese one.

What is China doing in Ladakh?

Based on what I have written so far I think this is a mission to subdue the periphery. The army is on an expedition to pacify the frontier and punish the uppity kingdom on the periphery, India. Show them who's the boss and then return to the heartland.

This is also about warning India not to join an alliance with the USA. For us, this might sound ridiculous but when you read how the Chinese see us, it makes perfect sense that we will not ally ourselves with the USA after receiving this warning. Ideas like humiliation being bad for relations are alien to them (humility is a virtue, they are simply showing India its place). That we might have self-respect or might actually care about strategic autonomy or be protecting our own interests are simply incomprehensible and completely out of sync with how they see us.

Several people have tried to think of the current situation in terms of military strategy. That makes absolutely no sense. It is almost certainly not about protecting the Aksai Chin highway. Firstly the PLA is not too bright in terms of military tactics, for example having 200 trucks inside a gorge seems foolish even to a civilian like me. Secondly, the empire never expects trouble or attack inside its borders. I think maybe one or two junior officers in the PLA might entertain the thought of an Indian armored attack and prepare a report on that but I think that's inconceivable for the majority. Also practically, China has enough heavy lift capability and construction skills to have a replacement highway running very quickly.

For those suggesting more fantastic ideas like a shortcut to PoK over the Karakoram pass. The Karakoram Pass is the one point on the boundary that there is no conflict about. Secondly, the Karakoram Highway has nothing to do with the Karakoram Pass. The geography of the area makes it impossible to build a road. Thirdly even the KKH is more or less a gesture for Pakistan, nothing seriously economic about it. it is far away from the economic and population heartland of China. Pakistan is a model tributary state, so it is rewarded with favors like the CPEC. From at least 2013, I have been telling anyone who would listen that it's a big joke. Some Chinese companies will get to build stuff and make a lot of money, which will be shared through the hierarchy but trade with Pakistan over the KKH makes utterly, absolutely no sense.

The current conflict is for the average Chinese, out there in Timbuktu. Tibet is already like Antarctica inhabited by the savages for the majority of them. And then there is some fight with India, a country they have heard of. It's quite an exotic place, people dance all the time, they've seen Bollywood movies. That's why I think the idea of domestic messaging doesn't quite fly. Hong Kong is easy to crush, also sends out a message about the supremacy of the CCP and the futility of democracy protests, but Tibet, as far away as it can get? With a third rate country like India? They have a vague idea that it's full of poor people who dance but is there really glory in defeating their army? That's only to be expected surely. This has also created a headache for the CCP, did high-tech Han warriors actually get slaughtered by dirty Red Turbans? [This is currently a very popular question on Chinese social media, which is being asked indirectly in many different ways].


Lessons for India

• Conflict with China is inevitable. So we must make sure we find the right time and place for it. It will not be a total war. Total war is too unpredictable and might cut into the CCPs earnings.
• Localised conflict is feasible and manageable Tibet is not worth much to the CCP. Of course a dynasty never allows its size to be reduced, but if Lhasa or Amdo or any city in Tibet or Xinjiang were destroyed, the CCP wouldn't even blink. But the CCP will at no costs see even the smallest threat to the heartland (south-west China). So escalation won't proceed beyond a certain step on the ladder
• Any war will be about temporary deterrence and not permanent victory. When we give them a bloody nose, they'll leave us alone for 30 years. But then we'll have to fight them again
• Diplomacy is about delay and obfuscation, not resolution. Talking helps pass the time until its time for military conflict. Any promises aren't worth the toilet paper they are written on. A loophole will be found as and when necessary.
• It's not Sun Tzu (Sun Zi) who's relevant to Chinese military strategy but Weiqi. I find it a bit ridiculous because The Art of War is quite elliptical and can be interpreted as one wishes. I haven't read it myself and I'm convinced most people who quote it haven't either. What Chinese Generals were also mesmerised by was the Gulf War 1. That and RMA have very much shaped their understanding of how the next war (with USA) will be fought.
• They will be hopeless at mountain warfare From everything I read, their strategy seems to be one of overwhelming the enemy. Send 2000 soldiers, 200 tanks, 500 trucks and 20 bulldozers to scare 200 enemy soldiers. This strategy might work on Tiananmen Square (as it indeed did) but not in the mountains. I don't know anything about weapons systems but I have a suspicion networked warfare is not really the best way to fight in the mountains. Massed forces are also probably not the best idea in Ladakh (perhaps with the exception of Depsang)
• This might make me sound like a Pakistani, but the Chinese have nothing to even remotely match the Indian soldier's spirit. I just tried to think of how many of my Chinese acquaintances might be willing to die for their country and I honestly can't think of a single one. In case of India obviously I have family, friends, neighbors, one doesn't need more than 5 seconds to think of 10 people. The Chinese spirit comes from Han superiority and fear of their officers, especially the political officers. This means they are ripe for desertion, and if there are non-Han soldiers they can probably be used to create disorder within their armies. The han superiority also makes them afraid of barbarians. They are always scared by people with heavy beards and scary mustaches.
• their lack of democracy means they are very brittle against information warfare. I had posted earlier how Chinese social media was relying on the messaging of the new Baba Banaras twitter account. All their news came from Indian media. If we can spread some fake videos or pics of mutilated Chinese soldiers, that will not enrage but scare them. It will perfectly fit their image of savage barbarians and the modern Chinese population is all up for CGI warfare but not to see skulls crushed with rocks.
• The planning is done by Generals, approved by Beijing, and then flows down to the soldiers. This system lacks innovation and probably won't be very flexible on the ground. Though it may very well lead to brilliant strategy in the case of experienced generals, the tactics will probably be shoddy and predictable.
• We should try to understand them and how they see us and take advantage of it. We must also be willing to adapt to their working style, which might mean giving up on values like honour and truth. We always feel betrayed by them because they act differently to our expectations. When we understand their worldview, we will be the ones taking advantage of them.
• What CCP does not want is a widespread front and protracted warfare. Traditionally such pacification exercises (Ladakh, but also Xinjiang and Tibet) were conducted in order to free the empire for more important work (like confronting the USA). We will know we have won this round when General Zhao is recalled to Beijing.

A very thorough investigation. Mods, I vote this series of points to be showed as featured article. Would require some cleanup and Images but put this up.

 

[utubekhiladi]

Meanwhile another front being worked out:

our police force and cisf is more the enough to deal with that group. i dont think saudi will play the ball here.. everybody else