India China LAC & International Border Discussions

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ARVION

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I think we should increase our defence export to Vietnam or indonesia and even malaysia as it is right time all the three countries could be interested in LCA as Vietnam needs to replace the mig 21 which we helped earlier to upgrade and Malaysia could think of it's as previously shown interest by them and us last year even for barter system of palm oil and Indonesia is interested to purchase fighter as they have shown interest in f 16 su 35 surely they fulfill their light combat roles easily by lca and should find a way to export brahmos by cutting russian red tape
 

A chauhan

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You are right , US army will induct a truck based laser weapon by 2024 . Can fry electronics helicopter , drones .

DRDO is also working on one .


“The laser beam hit a target located 250 metres away,” an official said. “It took 36 seconds for it to make a hole in the metal sheet.”

🤔 Still If a chinese laser system burned and downed our aircraft , we would have known , damage would be visible .

There is also this recent report by US on energy weapons for the interested .


The Chinese are working on ship based lasers , anti-sat lasers , air defence lasers against drones.
But i don't see anything that can bring down a fighter jet.
But laser is a light beam and it can be deflected as well like radar waves. 🤔
 

porky_kicker

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I think we should increase our defence export to Vietnam or indonesia and even malaysia as it is right time all the three countries could be interested in LCA as Vietnam needs to replace the mig 21 which we helped earlier to upgrade and Malaysia could think of it's as previously shown interest by them and us last year even for barter system of palm oil and Indonesia is interested to purchase fighter as they have shown interest in f 16 su 35 surely they fulfill their light combat roles easily by lca and should find a way to export brahmos by cutting russian red tape
First priority should be

Make sure we first start producing enough weapons and ammo for ourselves

Khud ka madad nahi kar sakte aur dusro ka kya karenge
 

ARVION

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First priority should be

Make sure we first start producing enough weapons and ammo for ourselves

Khud ka madad nahi kar sakte aur dusro ka kya karenge
My narrative was for a scenario where we defuse a war and also even we go for a war it takes Times to supply equipments so it might take some years to supply products to these nation so if they purchased our product we could use the amount paid for it for increasing our productions capacity and capabilities again correct me if I am wrong
 

Shashank Nayak

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One of the ways is
By using optical reflecting surfaces and paints .

Basically need to combine several technologies to defeat laser or just for enough period of time to get out safely
But, would require intelligence on the wavelength... of the hostile laser
 

ARVION

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Best deploy jammers or EW systems which are already available to defeat drones
I think DRDO was working on a portable deployable laser system even chines, Japanese Korean us EU countries and even trukey which claims to use it but I doubt that they used it against haftar forces so it's not farfetched it is a technology which is maturing fast
 

ezsasa

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3 separate brawls, outsider Chinese troops & more: Most detailed account of the brutal June 15 Galwan battle

Three separate brawls divided by time and space. Chinese troops who aren't normally deployed at Patrol Point 14. And, a young Indian Army team that took a decision to cross the Line of Actual Control (LAC) to square things up with the Chinese Army. The contours of the June 15 bloodletting have become cleared.

Plenty has been written so far about the clash between Indian and Chinese troops in Ladakh's Galwan Valley. But contradictory claims, and gaps in the narrative have so far left the story bereft of cohesiveness. Several questions have remained unanswered, with individual aspects lending themselves to speculation and guesswork. Now with a series of conversations with Army personnel in the Galwan Valley, Thangtse and Leh, India Today TV pieces together the most detailed account so far of how things played out.

The context is well known. Ten days prior, Lieutenant General-level talks had taken place and disengagement between both sides had begun at Patrol Point 14, since both had mobilised very close to the Line of Actual Control.

A Chinese observation post, which had been set up at the vertex of the bend in the Galwan River was proven, during talks, to be on the Indian side of the LAC, and an agreement had been reached to remove it. A few days after talks the post was dismantled by the Chinese. Commanding Officer of the 16 Bihar infantry battalion controlling the area Colonel B Santosh Babu even held talks with a counterpart Chinese officer on the day after the Chinese dismantled the camp.

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But on June 14, the camp unexpectedly re-emerged overnight.

At around 5pm on June 15, while the sun was still very much up, Colonel Babu decided to personally lead a team to the camp. Having spoken just a few days prior with the other side, the Commanding Officer is said to have wondered whether there had been a mistake. While young officers and jawans were raring to remove the Chinese post themselves, Colonel Babu, known to be a highly sober, cool-headed officer who had in a previous stint also served as a company commander in the area, decided to personally go.

In normal course, a Company Commander (Major rank) would probably have been sent to check. But Colonel Babu decided not to leave it to 'youngsters' in the unit. It is important to remember here that tempers were not up.

The young officers and jawans were simply motivated by the prospect of a task in a narrow river valley that has seen nearly no tactical disputes of any kind -- and where troops on either side have actually been quite friendly.


Col Santosh Babu, Commanding Officer of the 16 Bihar infantry battalion. (File photo)
At 7pm, Colonel Babu along with a team of about 35 men, including two Majors, proceeded on foot to the post. The mood in the team was not one of belligerence, but rather of inquiry. When they reached the Chinese camp, the first thing the Indian team noticed was that the Chinese troops didn't seem familiar -- they weren't the PLA troops normally deployed in the area.

The men of 16 Bihar had built familiarity with the Chinese unit, and had expected to run into troops and officers they already knew. The fresh faces was the first surprise. It has been assessed during a debrief that the 'new' Chinese troops at the offending post were from a pool freshly diverted from a PLA exercise in Tibet in the second half of May.

ALSO READ | After bloodshed, Army engineers toil 72 hours to finish Galwan bridge that triggered China

The men of 16 Bihar had received word at the time about the arrival of the 'new' PLA troops, but it was clear they were restricted to the 'depth' areas deep on their side of the LAC.

These 'new' Chinese troops were immediately belligerent once the Indian team arrived. When Colonel Babu opened the conversation, asking why the post had been re-erected, a Chinese soldier stepped up and pushed the Indian Colonel backwards hard, with expletives in the Chinese language.

In an Army unit, as several voices have since articulated, seeing your Commanding Officer disrespected and assaulted thus is equivalent to seeing your parents physically abused. The reaction was instant. The Indian team pounced on the Chinese. The fight strictly was a proper fist-fight with no melee weapons of any kind. This was the first brawl and ended about 30 minutes later with injuries on both sides, but the Indian team prevailing.

They rounded off the sparring by smashing and then burning the Chinese post to ashes. The pushing of their Commanding Officer had already crossed a very dangerous red line.

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Once this was done, Colonel Babu, earlier an instructor at the National Defence Academy, is said to have figured that the presence of these 'new' Chinese troops and the totally unexpected 'first punch' by a young Chinese soldier pointed to something bigger possibly afoot. Therefore, he sent the injured men back to the Indian post and asked them to send back more men. Tempers were understandably high at this time, but Colonel Babu is said to have still calmed his men.

The 'new' Chinese troops who had been overpowered, were forcibly taken by Colonel Babu back across the LAC. The Indian team not only wanted to deposit the encroachers back on their side, but also inspect whether there was more coming.

ALSO READ | Exclusive: First images from Galwan show Chinese build-up intact after Ladakh carnage, India holding ground

The events of the previous few hours had set tactical alarm bells ringing and didn't seem like a stray occurrence. It is also possible that they witnessed some movement on the Chinese side. Either way, the crossing of the Indian team into the Chinese side would spark the second phase of the fight a full hour later.

It was in this second brawl that most of the casualties would be inflicted.

"The boys were angry and aggressive. You can imagine how much they wanted to teach a lesson to the aggressors," an Army officer deployed near the Shyok-Galwan confluence a few kilometres from the brawl point told India Today TV.

It was dark by this time, and visibility had plummeted. What Colonel Babu suspected was correct. More Chinese troops, of the 'new' kind, were waiting in positions both on the banks of the Galwan as well as in positions up on a ridge to the right. Almost as soon as they arrived, large stones began to land.

At about 9pm, Colonel Babu was struck on the head by a large stone, and he fell into the Galwan River. The assessment is that it may not have been a targeted attack on the Colonel, but in the flurry, he was struck.

This second brawl lasted nearly 45 minutes, and it is during this fearsome exchange that the bodies piled up. A crucial aspect of brawl No. 2 is that the fighting spread into several different pockets across the LAC. While some have imagined it to be one big crowd of men fighting each other like a mob, the brawl actually separated into different groups, with nearly 300 men fighting each other. When the fighting stopped, several bodies of both Indian and Chinese troops were in the river, including the Indian Commanding Officer.

With energy fully spent by nearly an hour of vicious hand-to-hand fighting, including the use of metal spiked clubs by the Chinese and barbed-wire wrapped rods, the two sides disengaged and things fell quiet. Things quietened down for an hour till about 11pm giving troops on both sides to recover bodies.

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Colonel Babu's body and those of some of the other jawans were carried back to the Indian side, while the rest of the Indian team remained on the Chinese side taking stock of the situation. It had been brutally established that their Commanding Officer's suspicions had been proven correct. And with him killed in front of them, things were at an emotional peak.

During the recovery of bodies, and amidst the groan of injured personnel in the darkness, the Indian side heard the unmistakable hum of a quadcopter drone, something infantrymen are very attuned to in today's battlefield. This was an immediate trigger for what would lead to the third brawl. The drone was slowly moving through the valley, possibly using night vision or infrared cameras to map the damage and mount another assault on survivors.

Backup requested arrived in large numbers, including Ghatak platoons from both the 16 Bihar as well as 3 Punjab Regiment. Every infantry battalion has Ghatak platoons that lead attacks and function as 'shock troops'.
As suspected, the Chinese side had done the same. While the Indian reinforcements arrived, the Indian team stepped deeper into the Chinese side, wanting to ensure they didn't let large numbers of aggressive Chinese troops get close to the LAC.

ALSO READ | Bloodiest India-China clash in 40 years leaves 20 jawans dead, Chinese casualties in Ladakh's Galwan Valley

The third phase of the brawl began shortly after 11pm and would continue with sporadic intensity till well past midnight fully on the Chinese side. Troop groups would continue fighting along the ridgelines moving up towards the right, with the intensity of the fisticuffs leading to many men on both sides plunging into the narrow Galwan river, some injuring themselves on rocks while falling. Earthworks by the Chinese on the banks of the Galwan and adjoining flanks of earth is said to have played a part in this.

With energy completely spent after five hours of fighting since the incident began, things finally fell silent. Indian and Chinese combat medics arrived to move their dead and injured. The remains of soldiers on both sides were exchanged in the darkness. The physical separation of the fighting groups finally led to 10 Indian men -- 2 Majors, 2 Captains and 6 jawans -- being held back the Chinese side even after the disengagement. And it is here that the sequence begins to blur.

Former Army chief and current minister General VK Singh has come in record in media interviews to suggest that the Chinese casualties were more than double the 20 that the Indian Army suffered. India Today TV has learnt that the tactical debrief on the ground -- a kind of First Information Report on the incident -- records 16 Chinese Army bodies handed back to the Chinese side after brawl No.3, including 5 officers. The debrief report does not specify if the Chinese Commanding Officer of the unit was among these five.

The 16 were Chinese Army men confirmed dead on the battlefield. It is speculated that many more of the injured Chinese -- as with the 17 Indian men who perished the following day -- may have died of their injuries later, though there remains no categorical confirmation of this, nor is there likely to be.

General Singh has also hinted at an exchange of men after the incident. This too has been borne out from ground reports, with top Army sources clarifying to India Today TV that it wasn't a 'prisoner exchange'.

In the chaotic melee that was brawl No.3, the disengagement in the darkness led to several injured men from both sides remaining with the other.

By dawn on June 16, the Indian troops withdrew back across the LAC, after judging that many were still missing. Men on the ground say this wasn't a 'captivity' or 'prisoner' situation, since these were all injured men. When the sun rose, the situation was handed over to Major Generals on both sides, and talks hinged on the modalities of the exchange.

ALSO READ | How China channelled Galwan river to claim territory

It is testament to the shock of the incident still sinking in that it would take a further three days for the troops on both sides to be sent back to their respective sides.
"It was not a captivity situation. We were providing medical treatment to their men. And they were treating our men," a top Army official tells India Today TV.

The tactical debrief report also records the 16 Bihar's assessment that the Chinese troops involved in the brawl were not the regular unit deployed on the frontlines of the LAC and involved in multiple rounds of talks previously. The assessment is that this was by design, possibly a use of more 'aggressive', less situationally acclimatised troops to spearhead an aggressive action at the Galwan Valley, with a possible larger intent to capture Indian crossover points, culverts and bridges on the Galwan on the track leading up to the Shyok River to the west.

16 Bihar has been no stranger to the Chinese. During the 2017 Doklam standoff, the unit was in reserve in depth areas, even conducing reconnaissance operations for forward deployed troops.

In the Galwan Valley, the unit had been fully acclimatised for a couple of years and had developed a well-rounded rapport with men on the Chinese side. The shock of the Chinese aggression and sequence of events therefore went beyond the immediate tactical comprehension of troops on the ground.

The loss of Colonel Babu was a blow to the unit. A unit officer cleared for promotion previously has now taken over as Commanding Officer of 16 Bihar. The situation is markedly calmer now at Patrol Poing 14, with the disengagement process at Galwan hopefully expected to make progress.

 

Abhijeet Dey

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I hope people stop mentioning kali series , it is not a weapon , it is a R&D system.

Weights more than 50+ tons , takes 24 hours or more to recharge , system is calibrated to work at very small ranges inside the laboratory in controlled environment .

What will one use the system for in a battlefield ?

Too much star war movies
What do you think of this?

Operation Whitewash |A joint operation of DRDO and R&AW.

 

porky_kicker

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I think DRDO was working on a portable deployable laser system even chines, Japanese Korean us EU countries and even trukey which claims to use it but I doubt that they used it against haftar forces so it's not farfetched it is a technology which is maturing fast
AFAIK only the American's have proven systems which can be used in a hostile contested battlefield .
 

Bhoot Pishach

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Guys stop peeing in pants!!!

My Salute to Iron Resolve and Steel Spine of Indian Soldiers!!

Chinese do not know what are up they against. They have literally invoked their own death sentence.

Read this Spine Chilling Article from LT GEN P R Shankar (R)

Must read and spread all in your groups, do this to open the eyes of doubtful Sicklur Indians.


THE ARMED FORCES OF INDIA : UNYIELDING BY LT GEN P R SHANKAR (R)



If you have chosen to face the Indian Armed Forces:

you have chosen to face death and defeat.
Ask the Pakistanis they have the best experience.
The Chinese have recently joined their ranks.

There is clarity that the Chinese did something typically characteristic of China – “Attempted a stab in the back”. Post the agreement of 06 Jun, the Chinese pretended to disengage from the Galwan Area. In doing so, they lured a small party of 16 BIHAR into a premeditated ambush. When reinforcements led by the CO of 16 BIHAR came to the rescue of the ambushed party, they were apparently attacked by a larger Chinese party in hiding. Further reinforcements from the battalion and 3 Medium Regiment, an Artillery unit deployed in the vicinity rushed in from our side. Pitched hand to hand combat started. Slowly the tide turned due to ferocity of our counterattack despite being outnumbered 3:1 by the Chinese. The treacherous Chinese plan, as reconstructed, was to heavily outnumber and massacre the Indians in the ambush. After achieving that, proclaim that the Indians violated the agreement and interfered in their ‘peaceful disengagement’. Globally, pose as the disciplined and innocent Chinese who defended themselves against an aggressive Indian Force in their territory. They would declare themselves as the injured party to spin a story that what they did was in self-defense. A small Chinese Force slays a stronger Indian Army! What Propaganda! What Myth! The idea was to teach the Indian Army and the world a lesson through influence ops - DON’T MESS WITH CHINA. THE CONSEQUENCES WILL BE BRUTAL. This tactical action would have huge geostrategic ramifications and gain.

Unfortunately, they came across the Indian Army which fought back with unexpected ferocity. In this melee many Chinese bunched up on a ledge. It gave way and many of them fell to their death. That is besides those who suffered at the hands of the outnumbered but ferocious Indians. There is no doubt that India lost a brave Commanding Officer and 19 soldiers, but our valiant soldiers inflicted out of proportion casualties. Galwan will go down in the annals of Indian Military History as an incident which upset China’s applecart. Yes. This tactical action will have great geostrategic ramifications; not in the way China imagined.

It is an old saying that 100 soldiers marching on a bridge makes it collapse. Hereafter the saying will be ‘300 dumb Chinese soldiers standing on a ledge will make it collapse’. What were 300 soldiers doing on a Himalayan ledge bunched up like goons on the Shanghai waterfront? It is obvious that the Chinese have no concept of the Himalayan Terrain, where maximum casualties occur due to the environment rather than enemy action. In any case the overall behavior of the PLA has been so poor that it does not befit a modern Army or a great power. If anything this action has exposed the severe character and tactical flaws of PLA. The Indian Army will hereafter exploit it ruthlessly.

Which nation or Army hides its casualties? One that does not have honor or one that is outdone or one that fears the outcome of the casualties it has suffered. I find shades of all three in the PLA. It is dishonorable to carry out a premeditated ambush after an agreement to disengage has been reached. It is not the time-tested code of a noble soldier or a warrior. It is the DNA of ignoble thugs. You plan an unethical ambush. You outnumber the opposition. You suffer casualties which you do not declare. You are outdone Chinaman! China fears declaring casualties. Are they more than even the intercepts? Weibo chatter suggests so. There is also apprehension and tension there. Despite the Chinese canard to downplay numbers to control the situation, prevent escalation, and claim victory; the reality is different. If the numbers are declared, the true worth of PLA soldiers against battle hardened opposition will be nakedly exposed. If PLA suffers more than twice the casualties in a preplanned ambush where its strength is thrice that of Indian Army, where will the morale of PLA be? In the BOOTS! Clearly the PLA has suffered unexplainable and undisclosable casualties in an ambush it has meticulously planned as a coup de grace. That was pretty apparent from the face of the Chinese Spokesperson Zhao Lijian. Normally he is incisive, sharp, and arrogantly dismissive. He bristles with aggression in his answers and in brushing off queries. He was the poster boy “Wolf Warrior” of China when the Wuhan Virus was blooming. When the presser was held on the Galwan Incident, he was subdued and evasive like a ‘Bheegi Billi’ (wet cat). Obviously, the numbers were playing in his head. None of that customary swagger was evident in his body language. He was deliberate and repeatedly side-stepped questions on the number of casualties. This ‘Wolf Warrior’ had become a ‘Gidad’(jackal). This article is written in The Global Times mold. The Global Times reports on this action are like ‘meows’. Read them. That Editor should know how it feels to read an uncouth article. (I hope he reads it). Let us be clear. PLA is not yet up to it. Spare a thought. The Chinese Soldiers who laid down their lives fighting for their cause, deserve honorable last rites. Even that has been denied to them. Sad. What is this nation which does not honor its dead? It is the nation called China run by the Communist Party which once drove its people to cannibalism. Why? Food was being exported to enrich the Communist Party when its own people were being driven to death by starvation. Honor seems to be nonexistent in China. Great Civilization! My foot.

There are strategic ramifications of Chinese actions in Galwan. India will not yield or blink. There is political consensus to face up to China. India will only harden its stand. Status Quo Ante as of April 2020 or nothing. If that does not happen, the LAC will remain manned fully. Which means China can not pull its troops out if the situation deteriorates elsewhere. This will slowly but steadily build and solidify world opinion against China. Others will also show eyes. Matter of time. If the tension lasts, as it promises to, all economic ties will go Southwards. The people of India will ensure that. The longer this tension lasts and the longer the Virus lasts, the greater will be China’s problems. The larger ramification – never trust China. This is another stigma which the nation must bear alongside its pet virus.

I think China has very seriously miscalculated on the Indian Armed Forces. They should know what they are up against. The India Armed Forces are the toughest in the world. Did those stupid Pakistanis not advise the Chinese? They should know that in 1971, Captain Mulla of Indian Navy went down with his ship in an awesome example of sacrifice and embracing death in the highest traditions of a soldier. However, is that too ancient? Let us get to recent examples. Wing Commander Abhinandan was captured by Pakistan in 2019. The best comment about him came from a US originated Tweet. It read - ‘If that dude sporting a moustache says he killed an F-16 then he did. After a dog fight, ejecting, being beaten up by the locals and interrogated he complimented the opposition on the quality of their tea. Balls Incarnate’. Cut to the chase. Anand Mahindra, the well-known industrialist tweeted ‘Watched the parents of martyred Col. Babu being interviewed on TV channels. I was struck by their composure, courage & pride. If this steel spine runs through all parents of our armed forces personnel, then our adversaries should recognize they are up against an unyielding force’. That is the Indian Army, Navy and Air Force – Unyielding and Tough.

An incisive message is on the social media probably, by an ex US Marine, says "As an ex-marine, I'll say this: India is the most unrecognized power in the world. Most of the East India Company and later the British Raj was made up of Indian soldiers who were used to control Asia and Africa. They fought in Afghanistan. And more recently in 5 wars with Pakistan. They also fought 2 wars with China, 1962 and 1967. In 62 they were unprepared but in 67 they won against China. Also, 2 million Indians fought in WW2 for the British. And, Indian troops in the UN peace keeping mission are the best performers during operations. India also won 1 major mock air force war against USA during training, some years ago -- surprising us all. Mate! China has no clue what it is taking on. Not to mention the Indians have been fighting wars on and on for centuries."

Finally an ex GOC of the Trishul Division, now retired, said - Imagine what a huge setback for PLA and China if a premeditated and planned op goes so horribly wrong that they lost large number of troops… I think our troops have done a fantastic job. They have taught Chinese a good lesson. Minus 6 degrees C, at 16000 feet plus, went to their occupied position, knocked out 30 plus of PLA. Great work by IA. He knows the reality of what his Division has achieved.

Every Chinese citizen who is reading this article should take note of what the PLA is up against – Unyielding Hardened Steel. All the best. Forget your propaganda videos. Let us get real.
Every Indian citizen should know who is defending them and against what. Be proud that your Armed Forces are laying down their lives without a second thought to overcome all odds so that you can sleep well at home.

The Indian Soldier is the best in the business irrespective of the color of his uniform. As a veteran, my only request to my country is – please Arm these boys better and Pay them well. They will win the world for us.

Theirs not to question why, theirs but to do and die.
With a difference. With victory at their feet.


PS

News reports suggest that the Chinese have released our officers and men who were detained. Some of these reports are bordering on derogation. My horse sense tweeted that there was an exchange. Consider this. It was reported widely that on the morning following the incident, the PLA requested for a meeting at 0730h. Why would they do that? Thought of it? Either to recover bodies which would have got washed downstream to Shyok or seek an exchange since some senior or important person was with us! My guess is both. There is more to it. It is high time some of our Veterans and Media appreciate what our Generals, Commanders, Officers and Men are doing there. Our next generation is better than us. Let them do their job. They will bring laurels to the nation as we once did. Carry on boys. Well done and keep it up.

The Chinese are not 10 Feet tall. Post Galwan, they are lesser than half of that.

Jai hind

Posted 5 hours ago by Palepu Ravi Shankar
 

ARVION

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AFAIK only the American's have proven systems which can be used in a hostile contested battlefield .
That why I said I doubt Turkey's claim and it may take some years but could be be deployed in few years
 
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