India-China Border conflict

[Tactical Doge]

Yep training matters but no amount of traning can prepare you for what's going to happen in real life. Every veteran of every conflict, WW2, Desert Storm, GWOT and Ukraine, they all say the same thing. Training goes out of the window when bullets start flying specifically to shoot you and your buddies. Training is bullshit if you cannot apply it in practicality in real world conditions. It's like learning the theory but never practicing it.

Whole point of training and doing drills is to make sure that what you say doesn't happen

You cannot run around like headless chickens in combat with nothing drilled in

you for what's going to happen in real life

Let's take a simple ambush
Reaction to contact is a thing, and an untrained troop will react differently to a trained troop.

Training goes out of the window when bullets start flying specifically to shoot you and your buddies.

Hence specific SOPs are laid out and men are trained accordingly

"Shameless foreign-maal love" comes from the fact that DRDO is just pathetic at making weapon platforms on time or with quality. Why do you think we even have to import in the first place lmao? DPSUs are going to stay the same no matter what.


We have no clue on Chinese expeditionary logistics (yeah I mean for Taiwan). If Uncle Sam is trying to Invade China, that's a different story, but you just simply can't say PLA has the current logistical capabilities that can match the US. Economic wise, it's a different matter, and I'm not going to talk about that.


Purely speaking militarily, only the Chinese A2/AD cover is the only formidable foe US has occured, because its a threat to CSGs. The PLAGF simply hasn't gone toe to toe with any professional military since the Civil War that ended in 1949 (Vietnam was a border conflict, kind of like Kargil and 1962).


Regarding the PLAAF, most of their aircraft are still Soviet ripoffs, with only some amount of capable aircrafts, like the J-20 and J-10. While the USAF is filled with F-35s, Raptors and Vipers.

Also funny that officers are actually being seen as same as US officers. Lmao our officers are also fighting alongside the boys, almost all the officers go through some shit hard training and are taught by NCOs and JCOs. Most of the training is field training and a bit of service training, unlike in US officer academies, where they rarely go for field exercises, and are mostly focused on staff training.



Anyways convo is getting spicy so I take my leave now

Training and kit goes hand in hand

Good equipment -> you develop solid SOPs and play to your strengths

Bad equipment -> you work around whatever is given to you, compelling you to be a Jugaadu, which is the case with IA

 

[jai jaganath]

Yep training matters but no amount of traning can prepare you for what's going to happen in real life. Every veteran of every conflict, WW2, Desert Storm, GWOT and Ukraine, they all say the same thing. Training goes out of the window when bullets start flying specifically to shoot you and your buddies. Training is bullshit if you cannot apply it in practicality in real world conditions. It's like learning the theory but never practicing it.


Can you give a source on the PLA hiring ex-SOF personnel of NATO countries? Because as far as I know, the PLA has only recruited some amount of pilots, and half of them are double agents leaking PLA stuff to NATO. Besides, PLA won't hire too many of them since I'm gonna bet most of them are still active even after retirement unless they're too old, by which the tactics they know is just utterly obsolete


I'm not even talking about SOF here. Any unit, SOF or not, needs on ground experience to actually be effective in combat instead of flip flopping all over the place. An experienced grunt, no matter what type of combat he has been through, will be far more composed and level headed than a fresh green grunt who hasn't fought and has been trained by instructors who haven't fought either.


You're jumbling all over the place mate, I simply can't comprehend your point

Pls check the post I quoted bro
U said plasof lack experience and my respective post was related to it
In sof the one is well versed with mordern scenario well trained and competent then that guy has advantage in battle field
In today's world training isn't that behind especially in sof coz its more about tech and fighting technique
Their SOF has completely revolutionized their ops and sop at par with western ones
This bullet theory doesn't place any relevance today coz in training itself they have experienced and created many probable scenarios possible
Regarding airforce they have required many ex NATO pilots and many of them are generally in 40s based on crashed video and most importantly u don't need many pilots for training purpose a few of them exposing NATO sop and tactics is sufficient

 

[Tactical Doge]

Pls check the post I quoted bro
U said plasof lack experience and my respective post was related to it
In sof the one is well versed with mordern scenario well trained and competent then that guy has advantage in battle field
In today's world training isn't that behind especially in sof coz its more about tech and fighting technique
Their SOF has completely revolutionized their ops and sop at par with western ones
This bullet theory doesn't place any relevance today coz in training itself they have experienced and created many probable scenarios possible
Regarding airforce they have required many ex NATO pilots and many of them are generally in 40s based on crashed video and most importantly u don't need many pilots for training purpose a few of them exposing NATO sop and tactics is sufficient

Good Training can more than make up for lack of Experience, nobody in the army has fought a full scale war since 1971

Chinkis already have NATO civilian trainers, Pilots and all that shiiet training their troops, employed with lucrative offers

 

[jai jaganath]

"Shameless foreign-maal love" comes from the fact that DRDO is just pathetic at making weapon platforms on time or with quality. Why do you think we even have to import in the first place lmao? DPSUs are going to stay the same no matter what.


We have no clue on Chinese expeditionary logistics (yeah I mean for Taiwan). If Uncle Sam is trying to Invade China, that's a different story, but you just simply can't say PLA has the current logistical capabilities that can match the US. Economic wise, it's a different matter, and I'm not going to talk about that.


Purely speaking militarily, only the Chinese A2/AD cover is the only formidable foe US has occured, because its a threat to CSGs. The PLAGF simply hasn't gone toe to toe with any professional military since the Civil War that ended in 1949 (Vietnam was a border conflict, kind of like Kargil and 1962).


Regarding the PLAAF, most of their aircraft are still Soviet ripoffs, with only some amount of capable aircrafts, like the J-20 and J-10. While the USAF is filled with F-35s, Raptors and Vipers.

Also funny that officers are actually being seen as same as US officers. Lmao our officers are also fighting alongside the boys, almost all the officers go through some shit hard training and are taught by NCOs and JCOs. Most of the training is field training and a bit of service training, unlike in US officer academies, where they rarely go for field exercises, and are mostly focused on staff training.



Anyways convo is getting spicy so I take my leave now

Seriously mate
The amount of budget drdo gets is far worse we can imagine
It's for God sake the only rnd institution here
Drdo doesn't manufacture and Yes the quality by production psu are not upto standards but that's the reason for military to move away from indigenous equipments
The only reason we import even having indigenous option is presence of import lobby in military and MoD
Even then drdo make things using marvel level psqr given by military and constantly change qr thus convincing babus and politicians for import
Regarding time most of the time things get delayed by military in name of trails but yeah few exception exists
The gernails are fully responsible for incompetency, poor equipments, nil indigenization, all sorts of imaginary psqr and gsqr with evil intentions of import

 

[Overlord]

"Shameless foreign-maal love" comes from the fact that DRDO is just pathetic at making weapon platforms on time or with quality. Why do you think we even have to import in the first place lmao? DPSUs are going to stay the same no matter what.

Is that so, then why endless trials & piecemeal order (if inducted) for an indigenous platform like ATAGS.

The harami UN generols & their cahoots deserve nothing less than purge & gulags for keeping armed devoid of any modern equipments & killing the indigenous programs, just for few kickbacks.
@jai jaganath jara RFI dikha isko towed artillery wala

Anyways convo is getting spicy so I take my leave now

You sound a lot like that bhosdika amriki dalla wisemarko, uska alt hai kya ?

 

[jai jaganath]

Is that so, then why endless trials & piecemeal order for an indigenous platform like ATAGS.
@jai jaganath jara RFI dikha isko towed artillery wala


You sound a lot like that bhosdika amriki dalla wisemarko, uska alt hai kya ?

Ha bhai us RFI ke dukh se toh maine abtak do change nahi kia
And most disgusting was how convenient they change requirements first from all electric drive to hydraulic and giving multiple unnecessary reasons
Constantly targeting weight as if 3 tons se unka capability decrease ho raha ho
Aur piecemeal ki bat hi chodo first they wanted 150, now they want some 350 ig but still its piecemeal considering the requirements in 1000s and give reasons like look Russian Ukraine war towed artillery is useless
Will they give this reason when we had only athos as option
When we have shortage artillery guns and u have indigenous option which country would behave like us

 

[jai jaganath]

Is that so, then why endless trials & piecemeal order (if inducted) for an indigenous platform like ATAGS.

The harami UN generols & their cahoots deserve nothing less than purge & gulags for keeping armed devoid of any modern equipments & killing the indigenous programs, just for few kickbacks.
@jai jaganath jara RFI dikha isko towed artillery wala


You sound a lot like that bhosdika amriki dalla wisemarko, uska alt hai kya ?

As Army puts in request for towed artillery guns, Israeli ATHOS is back in race for mega deal

In its request, Army specifies weight of gun system should preferably be less than 15 tons. This brings Israeli firm Elbit in reckoning as indigenous ATAGs are well over 18 tons.

theprint.in

This is latest one but after that MoD cleared 370 atags guns for army but they will order by year end or so
Until then my dp will remain the same
But this is happening due to constant pressure from MoD and RM if not then abtak Athos aa gaya hota

 

[DingDong]

Sir no point in comparing Afghanistan to our case
Our warfare is different participants are different and objectives too

True, however we will need to enter the war while making good use of whatever is available to us. PLA has a bigger budget than India, PLA is being revamped into a leaner and meaner force. Unfortunately, a large part of India's defense budget goes into pensions, we cannot cut the numbers either due to internal political pressure (military is a major employer). We will live with our constraints.

However, the issue goes far beyond logistics. Galwan was not the first instance when the Indian military establishment was caught napping. Remember Kargil? We did not even know for several weeks that we had been invaded. Remember the mobilization in response to the Parliament attack? It took forever and hundreds if not thousands died in freak accidents. These are planning, safety and operational issues. Logistics cannot be blamed, neither can the government.

 

[Hari Sud]

As Army puts in request for towed artillery guns, Israeli ATHOS is back in race for mega deal

In its request, Army specifies weight of gun system should preferably be less than 15 tons. This brings Israeli firm Elbit in reckoning as indigenous ATAGs are well over 18 tons.

theprint.in

View attachment 217081

This is latest one but after that MoD cleared 370 atags guns for army but they will order by year end or so
Until then my dp will remain the same
But this is happening due to constant pressure from MoD and RM if not then abtak Athos aa gaya hota

‘We should rest the Israeli ATHOS gun purchase idea and burry it deep. Transfer the officers who are brining this subject back again and again. The Indian made guns have proved their mettle in field firing, transport and mobility. For mountain tops, enough of M777 are available. For hills and valley hiding of guns and firing them quickly during a battle, there are enough gun design of Bharat Forge and TATA together exist. ATAG is road mobile including in new built roads in Ladakh and Arunachal Pradesh. There is 155/52 truck mounted gun from Bharat Forge. Again there is ultra light 155 mm gun now available from Bharat forge.

Hence do not run to grab Israeli ATHOS at the slightest hint of maintenance and repair issue of locally made guns.

 

[shade]

Microsoft comes under blistering criticism for “grossly irresponsible” security

Azure looks like a house of cards collapsing under the weight of exploits and vulnerabilities.

arstechnica.com

Don't know if we have a thread for Chinky hackerman activities so posting here.

TLDR is Microshaft is being exposed for it's incompetence, maybe an inside job with the amount of PRChingchong employees in America

 

[Kumaoni]

owever, the issue goes far beyond logistics. Galwan was not the first instance when the Indian military establishment was caught napping. Remember Kargil? We did not even know for several weeks that we had been invaded. Remember the mobilization in response to the Parliament attack? It took forever and hundreds if not thousands died in freak accidents. These are planning, safety and operational issues. Logistics cannot be blamed, neither can the government.

Me when I read history from wikipedisb

 

[mist_consecutive]

 

[mist_consecutive]

True, especially the last tweet for the doomer black-pilled generation.

 

[Kumaoni]

True, especially the last tweet for the doomer black-pilled generation.

That’s how our brain works my friend: we believe what we see more than what we read or hear: the videos are very worrisome

 

[mist_consecutive]

That’s how our brain works my friend: we believe what we see more than what we read or hear: the videos are very worrisome

Then perhaps it's time to retrospect your blind spots and not submit to the urge of your primitive brain while thinking and making decisions.

You are basically saying, "yeah, the Chinese do propaganda, but I can't help but fall for it because that's how humans are".

While this is a valid argument for a layman mango Indian whose only priority is rising prices of bhindi and petrol, who lacks a basic iota of defense knowledge, someone like you who frequents defense forums and interacts with experts here should hold your standards higher.

 

[Kumaoni]

Then perhaps it's time to retrospect your blind spots and not submit to the urge of your primitive brain while thinking and making decisions.

You are basically saying, "yeah, the Chinese do propaganda, but I can't help but fall for it because that's how humans are".

While this is a valid argument for a layman mango Indian whose only priority is rising prices of bhindi and petrol, who lacks a basic iota of defense knowledge, someone like you who frequents defense forums and interacts with experts here should hold your standards higher.

Mate, propagnda or not that’s literally footage of what happened in the clash. And pics of our POWs. And we are supposed to believe stories of neck snapping and killing 16 Chinese single-handedly, waaah

 

[DingDong]

Mate, propagnda or not that’s literally footage of what happened in the clash. And pics of our POWs. And we are supposed to believe stories of neck snapping and killing 16 Chinese single-handedly, waaah

Chinese did not even acknowledge any casualty or death on their side. According to them this was a perfectly executed operation, should we believe?

A battle is not a reality show. And yes, we are supposed to trust our establishment and the officially released stories in this case. Why should we provide credibility to the enemy propaganda?

 

[mist_consecutive]

Mate, propagnda or not that’s literally footage of what happened in the clash. And pics of our POWs.

Again, as I said, what happened in Galwan & Pangong Tso clashes in May-June 2020 should not be used as a benchmark. Why do you think the Chinese keeps on releasing more & more such videos ? To trap and demoralize soft targets like you.

Do you see the Chinese releasing videos of the 2022 Tawang clash or even the 2020 Naku La clash ? Nope, because they got their asses handed over to them.

For example, this is Indian Army capturing & dominating Gurung Hill. Below you can see the Moldo post of China in direct LoS.


This is the Indian Army dominating the Southern Kailash range and capturing multiple vital positions & dominating the Chinese.

Do you see any videos/pictures from the Chinese side? Ofc no.

What China wants to show you -

vs. Reality

And we are supposed to believe stories of neck snapping and killing 16 Chinese single-handedly, waaah

No, read Shiv Aroor's book where he describes the entire Galwan incident in crisp detail.

 

[Kumaoni]

A battle is not a reality show. And yes, we are supposed to trust our establishment and the officially released stories in this case. Why should we provide credibility to the enemy propaganda?

Probably because they have shown pictures. What have we shown

 

[Kumaoni]

Again, as I said, what happened in Galwan & Pangong Tso clashes in May-June 2020 should not be used as a benchmark. Why do you think the Chinese keeps on releasing more & more such videos ? To trap and demoralize soft targets like you.

Do you see the Chinese releasing videos of the 2022 Tawang clash or even the 2020 Naku La clash ? Nope, because they got their asses handed over to them.

For example, this is Indian Army capturing & dominating Gurung Hill. Below you can see the Moldo post of China in direct LoS.

How much land was taken in Tawang 2022? Or 2020 Naku La? How many PLA prisoners? In Galwan they actually captured our men and released pics of them doing torture poses, that’s my problem. Anywho, I don’t have much interest in Tawang 2022 and Naku La 2020 because I already we won that easily. I want pictures of captured PLA soldiers from the Galwan clash or pangong clash. What I want to see is pla prisoners and dead PLA bodies.

No, read Shiv Aroor's book where he describes the entire Galwan incident in crisp detail.

Already have.