India-China Border conflict

[DingDong]

Bloody levels of cringe. Muh Gurkhas, Gurkhas fought in 1962 too, their “martial prowess” couldn’t save them from their poor gear against inhumane living conditions.

Their infantrymen are better equipped than our most elite SOF units (and likely better trained).

Let me introduce TALIBAN to you, have you seen their shiny uniform and battle gears. There are complex reasons behind India's battle performance in 1962 (still kept secret for a reason).

 

[Tactical Doge]

Lmao how has our officer quality gone down, mind explaining that? Bad apples exist in every organisation but the overall quality of our officers still kind of remains the same

The IA present scenario screams low quality of officers, atleast a good number of them, even If I say so as a civillian

It's painfully obvious, the troops are hardy, their leadership is what's failing them

 

[Kumaoni]

Lmao how has our officer quality gone down, mind explaining that? Bad apples exist in every organisation but the overall quality of our officers still kind of remains the same

Mid level and younger leadership (until brigadier) has more or less stayed the same.

The Upper Brass, however, has been Ina. Slow decline since the death of General BC joshi, and in every preceding year, has gotten worse and worse.

Here’s proof:
1. How many years after the US army adopting camo in Vietnam did we follow suit?
2. How many years after learning that conventionally trained soldiers can’t fight against guerillas (Ipkf in Lanka) did we create RR?
3. In how many years after learning that the lee Winfield was bloody outdated did we manage to make the SLR standard in the army?
4. How many years after SAS creation did we make a para brigade?
Now think about the oeprations in 1971 and beyond. A class apart!

Now here is the current generation of officers for you
1. Zero sniping capabilities when sniping importance became highlighted in GWOT
2. No centralized SOF command, something which General BC joshi tried to make in 1990 but was discontinued due to laziness
3. Similar gear barring few things like rifles and PCs (that too mostly with only frontline troops) from the Kargil war. BARELY any modernization
4. Now jokers doing shit like buying jetpacks and making different camos for field officers

 

[Kumaoni]

Let me introduce TALIBAN to you, have you seen their shiny uniform and battle gears. There are complex reasons behind India's battle performance in 1962 (still kept secret for a reason).

Let me introduce “caves and country side” for you, a place where the US rarely ventured into. It was the ANA which did most of the fighting, not the US.

 

[mist_consecutive]

Calm down. Don't swallow yellow Chinese phallus so deep your mind stops working.

What is this bullshit? They are Better equipped than us, in more number than us, likely more motivated as our jawans are dying for a thankless Government while theirs has brainwashed their soldiers into thinking they are fighting a war of recon quest.

They aren’t just decades ahead of us, they are generations. This isn’t in the 90s anymore, they have overtaken us significantly while our socialist MoD baby’s and their yes men commanders while buy a gorrilion tanks while keeping our jawans with 1974 tier helmets and actively degrading its SF capability.

If this was 90s, sure, our army of 90s would’ve wiped the floor with the PLA of the 90s, same with that of the 2000s however they are literally on par with the west in terms of equipment, while we are barely on par with Pakistan! And now the army is ordering jet packs and making different uniforms from brigade level plus commanders.

What is this bullshit? They are Better equipped than us, in more number than us, likely more motivated as our jawans are dying for a thankless Government while theirs has brainwashed their soldiers into thinking they are fighting a war of recon quest.

Marginally better equipped than us. Don't go by cheesy propaganda photoshoots, look at ground-level pictures. When we bought T-72s and T-90s on Rezang La, they panicked and fielded older Type-88s (inferior to even T-72 Ayeja) and a handful of slow and lethargic MBT Type-96s.

All the drama of advanced lightweight tank specifically made for Tibet Type-15 was nowhere to be found.

They aren’t just decades ahead of us, they are generations. This isn’t in the 90s anymore, they have overtaken us significantly while our socialist MoD baby’s and their yes men commanders while buy a gorrilion tanks while keeping our jawans with 1974 tier helmets and actively degrading its SF capability.

If we are talking about troop-level equipment, they are at most a few years ahead of us.

If this was 90s, sure, our army of 90s would’ve wiped the floor with the PLA of the 90s, same with that of the 2000s however they are literally on par with the west in terms of equipment, while we are barely on par with Pakistan! And now the army is ordering jet packs and making different uniforms from brigade level plus commanders.

Yet we wiped the floor with them on many occasions, from Op. Snow Leopard to Tawang clash of 2022.

 

[another_armchair]

Would be nice if some of the posts are moved the the Indian Army discussion thread.

 

[shade]

I mean, even the ruskies are holding a steady defensive line in Ukraine with shit gear and mind you, shit commanders and tactics. Gear doesn't affect you too much if you're on the defensive, unless it's something like a world war two British Indian Army sepoy against a 21st century PLA grunt. Yeah, we are behind the PLA in infantry gear, it's bad but it's not worse for us to be obsolete. Anyways it's not like we're planning to take over Tibet

We aren't, right? Right?

Again, doubt on training. They haven't even been deployed on foreign soil at all. PLASOF may have all the gucci gear but I'll exercise a lot of doubt on their real world experience.

My dude the kumaoni nibba is pointing out that the Chinkies are well prepared to fight an industrial war close to the level of Uncle Sam himself, in terms of equipment, vehicles, airforce, infrastructure everything.

And your argument is basically we will win against them with jazba and junoon.

The Army and Air Force are in a very bad state today and they will be the first to be called to defend in case an actual war breaks out that cannot be "Koi nahi ghussa" away.

No need to defend the incompetence and shameless foreign-maal love of Afsars, Generols etc, because that is what is being criticized here, not the actual boys who fight on the ground, who deserve better.

 

[Kumaoni]

Calm down. Don't swallow yellow Chinese phallus so deep your mind stops working.





Marginally better equipped than us. Don't go by cheesy propaganda photoshoots, look at ground-level pictures. When we bought T-72s and T-90s on Rezang La, they panicked and fielded older Type-88s (inferior to even T-72 Ayeja) and a handful of slow and lethargic MBT Type-96s.

All the drama of advanced lightweight tank specifically made for Tibet Type-15 was nowhere to be found.



If we are talking about troop-level equipment, they are at most a few years ahead of us.



Yet we wiped the floor with them on many occasions, from Op. Snow Leopard to Tawang clash of 2022.

1. Not everything is “Chinese propagnda”.
2. A comparison of Indian army troops and PLA troops in the clash videos bring out stark and nearly generational differences. Standardized uniforms, better helmets, body armor, spears, etc. Meanwhile we were just wearing jackets and bringing sticks to the fight. Not to mention the numbers. In one video they attacked 5 Indian troops with over 60 men.
3. Tanks won’t be used in a war with China. Cmon, it will be like another Kargil like infantry+ artillery war.
4. You need to look at PLA pics and then IA pics on Reddit and you’ll see what I’m talking about.

 

[another_armchair]

1. Not everything is “Chinese propagnda”.
2. A comparison of Indian army troops and PLA troops in the clash videos bring out stark and nearly generational differences. Standardized uniforms, better helmets, body armor, spears, etc. Meanwhile we were just wearing jackets and bringing sticks to the fight. Not to mention the numbers. In one video they attacked 5 Indian troops with over 60 men.
3. Tanks won’t be used in a war with China. Cmon, it will be like another Kargil like infantry+ artillery war.
4. You need to look at PLA pics and then IA pics on Reddit and you’ll see what I’m talking about.

It is Aug 4, 2023.

No point that we keep going back to the Jun 16 incident and dhoti shiver.

A lot changed after that unfortunate incident.

What has China gained after the Galwan clash on the ground?

 

[DingDong]

1. Not everything is “Chinese propagnda”.
2. A comparison of Indian army troops and PLA troops in the clash videos bring out stark and nearly generational differences. Standardized uniforms, better helmets, body armor, spears, etc. Meanwhile we were just wearing jackets and bringing sticks to the fight. Not to mention the numbers. In one video they attacked 5 Indian troops with over 60 men.
3. Tanks won’t be used in a war with China. Cmon, it will be like another Kargil like infantry+ artillery war.
4. You need to look at PLA pics and then IA pics on Reddit and you’ll see what I’m talking about.

They managed to outnumber (60-5) us because we failed to anticipate their movement and intention. They prepared for the action, we did not.

How do you know that battle tanks will not see "limited" action?

Are we sure that PLA soldiers will enter the war wearing those fancy gadgets? Military logistics is a complex issue, even the US military which is the best expeditionary military of modern times has faced logistical nightmares. Arming hundreds of thousands of soldiers is not a small task.

 

[mist_consecutive]

1. Not everything is “Chinese propagnda”.
2. A comparison of Indian army troops and PLA troops in the clash videos bring out stark and nearly generational differences. Standardized uniforms, better helmets, body armor, spears, etc. Meanwhile we were just wearing jackets and bringing sticks to the fight. Not to mention the numbers. In one video they attacked 5 Indian troops with over 60 men.
3. Tanks won’t be used in a war with China. Cmon, it will be like another Kargil like infantry+ artillery war.
4. You need to look at PLA pics and then IA pics on Reddit and you’ll see what I’m talking about.

1. Not everything is “Chinese propagnda”.

Anything originating from Chinese media & their govt. mouthpieces, which include most of their social media handles as well, cannot be trusted as they are heavily doctored, scripted and edited to show superiority of the PLA.

2. A comparison of Indian army troops and PLA troops in the clash videos bring out stark and nearly generational differences. Standardized uniforms, better helmets, body armor, spears, etc. Meanwhile we were just wearing jackets and bringing sticks to the fight. Not to mention the numbers. In one video they attacked 5 Indian troops with over 60 men.

You are comparing from Galwan/Pangong Tso from 2020 May-June. PLAGF sent special forces along with specialized equipment not seen before at LAC (swords, batons, maces and spears) to specifically attack and kill lightly armed IA troops. They took advantage of the fact that no-arms policy at border means IA will be reluctant to open fire, and the lack of similar sharp arms will put us at a disadvantage.

After Galwan clash, either our troops carry full battle gear with guns & ammunition, similar sharp weapons, or both.

3. Tanks won’t be used in a war with China. Cmon, it will be like another Kargil like infantry+ artillery war.
4. You need to look at PLA pics and then IA pics on Reddit and you’ll see what I’m talking about.

You just displayed your lack of understanding of Indo-Chinese situation at LAC. The fact that you are referring to Reddit pics for judging the preparedness level of IA and PLA, shows me I am talking to an immature mislead person.

Keep on your musings. I will step out of this conversation.

 

[jai jaganath]

I am not sure on the motivation part. Where the hell is your source even from lmao?

Our jawans and sepoys and officers don't fight for the "government", they fight for the country. Nobody in the army gives a shit about what treatment the army gets since the army looks after themselves in matters of welfare. You fight for your fellow troops, officers and for the unit you're in. Government means jackass for the average grunt and officer.


I mean, even the ruskies are holding a steady defensive line in Ukraine with shit gear and mind you, shit commanders and tactics. Gear doesn't affect you too much if you're on the defensive, unless it's something like a world war two British Indian Army sepoy against a 21st century PLA grunt. Yeah, we are behind the PLA in infantry gear, it's bad but it's not worse for us to be obsolete. Anyways it's not like we're planning to take over Tibet

We aren't, right? Right?

What doesn't make u think they won't die for their nation or won't fight
What makes u think they have poor treatment than us when their budget economy pci is far ahead of which we can achieve-just for saying
Ruskies-shitty gear?
Even Russians are equipped like shit then we don't even deserve the standard of shit
Were this logic erupts bro that when u are in defense u have luxury of being poor equipped rather it's opposite

 

[Kumaoni]

Anything originating from Chinese media & their govt. mouthpieces, which include most of their social media handles as well, cannot be trusted as they are heavily doctored, scripted and edited to show superiority of the PLA.

Mega levels of cope, but whatever, you are right.

You are comparing from Galwan/Pangong Tso from 2020 May-June. PLAGF sent special forces along with specialized equipment not seen before at LAC (swords, batons, maces and spears) to specifically attack and kill lightly armed IA troops. They took advantage of the fact that no-arms policy at border means IA will be reluctant to open fire, and the lack of similar sharp arms will put us at a disadvantage.

After Galwan clash, either our troops carry full battle gear with guns & ammunition, similar sharp weapons, or both.

No soldier died in pangong, in pangong they actually (only recorded instance from our side) captured a pla officer. But what happened after that was that a section of 5-10 men was attacked from two sides and had zero gear and weapons to counter attack.

You just displayed your lack of understanding of Indo-Chinese situation at LAC. The fact that you are referring to Reddit pics for judging the preparedness level of IA and PLA, shows me I am talking to an immature mislead person.

Keep on your musings. I will step out of this conversation.

Okay, so then tell me how the war will be fought, you will use tanks to capture mountain peaks? Very nice!

 

[jai jaganath]

Again, doubt on training. They haven't even been deployed on foreign soil at all. PLASOF may have all the gucci gear but I'll exercise a lot of doubt on their real world experience.

This thing of experience is far outdated
Now training is what matters and a well trained force can overwhelm in a constraint conflict
They have hired western ex sof personnel for training and development and they really focus on true sof capabilities
Coming to experience, fighting in coin intensive environment doesn't provide any true sof capabilities in conventional sphere
That is we guys are gonna fight for particular piece of land not entire country
So let's not bring Afghanistan and other invaded countries

 

[jai jaganath]

Let me introduce TALIBAN to you, have you seen their shiny uniform and battle gears. There are complex reasons behind India's battle performance in 1962 (still kept secret for a reason).

Sir no point in comparing Afghanistan to our case
Our warfare is different participants are different and objectives too

 

[another_armchair]

When blackpilled and demoralized, watch this post Galwan video and fap.

 

[jai jaganath]

They managed to outnumber (60-5) us because we failed to anticipate their movement and intention. They prepared for the action, we did not.

How do you know that battle tanks will not see "limited" action?

Are we sure that PLA soldiers will enter the war wearing those fancy gadgets? Military logistics is a complex issue, even the US military which is the best expeditionary military of modern times has faced logistical nightmares. Arming hundreds of thousands of soldiers is not a small task.

Proper pc helmets rifles radios and other imp stuffs for infantry are not fancy things rather they are necessity in mordern warfare
And these things are generally well integrated in logistics unlike ours

 

[MikeTheInfantryman]

This thing of experience is far outdated
Now training is what matters and a well trained force can overwhelm in a constraint conflict
They have hired western ex sof personnel for training and development and they really focus on true sof capabilities
Coming to experience, fighting in coin intensive environment doesn't provide any true sof capabilities in conventional sphere
That is we guys are gonna fight for particular piece of land not entire country
So let's not bring Afghanistan and other invaded countries

Yep training matters but no amount of traning can prepare you for what's going to happen in real life. Every veteran of every conflict, WW2, Desert Storm, GWOT and Ukraine, they all say the same thing. Training goes out of the window when bullets start flying specifically to shoot you and your buddies. Training is bullshit if you cannot apply it in practicality in real world conditions. It's like learning the theory but never practicing it.


Can you give a source on the PLA hiring ex-SOF personnel of NATO countries? Because as far as I know, the PLA has only recruited some amount of pilots, and half of them are double agents leaking PLA stuff to NATO. Besides, PLA won't hire too many of them since I'm gonna bet most of them are still active even after retirement unless they're too old, by which the tactics they know is just utterly obsolete


I'm not even talking about SOF here. Any unit, SOF or not, needs on ground experience to actually be effective in combat instead of flip flopping all over the place. An experienced grunt, no matter what type of combat he has been through, will be far more composed and level headed than a fresh green grunt who hasn't fought and has been trained by instructors who haven't fought either.


You're jumbling all over the place mate, I simply can't comprehend your point

 

[MikeTheInfantryman]

My dude the kumaoni nibba is pointing out that the Chinkies are well prepared to fight an industrial war close to the level of Uncle Sam himself, in terms of equipment, vehicles, airforce, infrastructure everything.

And your argument is basically we will win against them with jazba and junoon.

The Army and Air Force are in a very bad state today and they will be the first to be called to defend in case an actual war breaks out that cannot be "Koi nahi ghussa" away.

No need to defend the incompetence and shameless foreign-maal love of Afsars, Generols etc, because that is what is being criticized here, not the actual boys who fight on the ground, who deserve better.

"Shameless foreign-maal love" comes from the fact that DRDO is just pathetic at making weapon platforms on time or with quality. Why do you think we even have to import in the first place lmao? DPSUs are going to stay the same no matter what.


We have no clue on Chinese expeditionary logistics (yeah I mean for Taiwan). If Uncle Sam is trying to Invade China, that's a different story, but you just simply can't say PLA has the current logistical capabilities that can match the US. Economic wise, it's a different matter, and I'm not going to talk about that.


Purely speaking militarily, only the Chinese A2/AD cover is the only formidable foe US has occured, because its a threat to CSGs. The PLAGF simply hasn't gone toe to toe with any professional military since the Civil War that ended in 1949 (Vietnam was a border conflict, kind of like Kargil and 1962).


Regarding the PLAAF, most of their aircraft are still Soviet ripoffs, with only some amount of capable aircrafts, like the J-20 and J-10. While the USAF is filled with F-35s, Raptors and Vipers.

Also funny that officers are actually being seen as same as US officers. Lmao our officers are also fighting alongside the boys, almost all the officers go through some shit hard training and are taught by NCOs and JCOs. Most of the training is field training and a bit of service training, unlike in US officer academies, where they rarely go for field exercises, and are mostly focused on staff training.



Anyways convo is getting spicy so I take my leave now

 

[Gyyan]

Idiotic Musings From Firangistan

Isn't this also the hotel owned by PIA? That was my initial thought when I saw this news bit.

defenceforumindia.com

An example as to why you don't trust the chinki videos showing "mighty" PLA doing "mighty" shit