India-China Border conflict

[Kumaoni]

On average the Chinese have a smaller height due to genetics. This evident in some confrontation videos

No it’s not, they look the exact same. And a one or two inch median height isn’t the extreme difference most online Indians make it out to be.

 

[MikeTheInfantryman]

Seeing as of how our SOF is at par with other SOFs in terms of gear (Idk about NVGs but I'm assuming gen 3+) I wonder why the average grunt units aren't given at least a fraction of the gucci gear


At least we're on par with PLA in terms of SOF gear. We one up them on experience and tactics so there's that

 

[Kumaoni]

Seeing as of how our SOF is at par with other SOFs in terms of gear (Idk about NVGs but I'm assuming gen 3+) I wonder why the average grunt units aren't given at least a fraction of the gucci gear

Lol we aren’t at par with even SEA nations in terms of SOF. If anything there’s practically zero difference between the RR and Paras

 

[jai jaganath]

I wouldn't say that, considering how some units are locally procuring some amount of modern gear for infantry troops.


Procuring winter clothing is a different stuff I don't know how that affects competency when it really is a matter of procurement which the army isn't really in control of.

Tbh, tactics change only when heavy weaponry like light tanks are involved. Infantry tactics kind of remain the same in its basics, be it in the mountains or anywhere. Seeing as how we're having multiple exercises with our military partners such as from US, France and Israel, I wouldn't say we are outdated either. On the other hand, China only had exercises with Russia, and we can see how the Russians are doing in Ukraine.

Now, most of the problem lies with procurement decisions and lack of any plans. Current weapons procurement is haphazard and without any form, and half of the time it's on an emergency basis. The civilians at MoD are batshit crazy on locking horns with the army for some reason and the resulting bureaucracy is just a nightmare. So in essence it all boils down to a absence of a plan to modernise the military, especially the army in a proper manner in terms of individual equipment.


Well seeing as how officers complain about not getting enough equipment for the troops, I won't say they're brain dead on competency and tactics but rather they're just helpless and can't do shit unless the mighty lord and savior MoD does something or at least allows them to. In some cases some units get plate carriers because they're going for a foreign exercise, but that's it.


Keyword is bureaucracy. That needs a change.

Nah bro I beg to disagree here
Some units procuring mordern equipments but point being just good pc and mku helmets enough and moreover if u look at them their pc arrangement is poor their plates hanging low
Moreover if specifically speak pc then I haven't seen any infantry with mordern pc except sf
Moreover most of the troops are equipped with 1974 helmets, bpj etc which are damn outdated
Have u come across any procurement initiated by army for winter clothing
Procurement initiation has to be done by military not bureaucracy
Similarly for light tanks drones or pgm for iaf
From RFI to testing rfp is job of army ig bureaucracy comes during selection negotiation and clearance
When basics like winter clothing is not in requirement list that speaks about their training
This logic of we being in training with multiple countries but China by one has popped up many times
Point is these joint trainings ofcourse has importance as exchange of learning occurs but none of significant war is fought on their learning yes we get some impression but u have to go alone wrt tactics and planning
So that isn't significant
The important training is done by the country itself if that's isn't modernized then joint training doesn't have any effect
Rest procurement initiation has to be done by armed forces not MoD if they never initiated that is they never felt requirement that is they never trained or simulated such situation

 

[jai jaganath]

Seeing as of how our SOF is at par with other SOFs in terms of gear (Idk about NVGs but I'm assuming gen 3+) I wonder why the average grunt units aren't given at least a fraction of the gucci gear


At least we're on par with PLA in terms of SOF gear. We one up them on experience and tactics so there's that

Kabhi ao haveli Indian sf thread pe

 

[MikeTheInfantryman]

Kabhi ao haveli Indian sf thread pe

Damn never went into that thread lmao sounds fun

 

[Kumaoni]

Nah bro I beg to disagree here
Some units procuring mordern equipments but point being just good pc and mku helmets enough and moreover if u look at them their pc arrangement is poor their plates hanging low
Moreover if specifically speak pc then I haven't seen any infantry with mordern pc except sf
Moreover most of the troops are equipped with 1974 helmets, bpj etc which are damn outdated
Have u come across any procurement initiated by army for winter clothing
Procurement initiation has to be done by military not bureaucracy
Similarly for light tanks drones or pgm for iaf
From RFI to testing rfp is job of army ig bureaucracy comes during selection negotiation and clearance
When basics like winter clothing is not in requirement list that speaks about their training
This logic of we being in training with multiple countries but China by one has popped up many times
Point is these joint trainings ofcourse has importance as exchange of learning occurs but none of significant war is fought on their learning yes we get some impression but u have to go alone wrt tactics and planning
So that isn't significant
The important training is done by the country itself if that's isn't modernized then joint training doesn't have any effect
Rest procurement initiation has to be done by armed forces not MoD if they never initiated that is they never felt requirement that is they never trained or simulated such situation

There’s more than that but okay.

 

[jai jaganath]

There’s more than that but okay.

Ur wish I can't argue but requirement is higher than it
But I haven't seen any infantry during standoff with pc

 

[Kumaoni]

Ur wish I can't argue but requirement is higher than it
But I haven't seen any infantry during standoff with pc

Not going off stand-off pics but going off pics in the infantry thread, which some members highlighted and broke down

 

[jai jaganath]

Damn never went into that thread lmao sounds fun

Prep yourself for an unforgettable journey from optimism to pessimism
If u have doubts then ask @Kumaoni how it hits differently

 

[Kumaoni]

Damn never went into that thread lmao sounds fun

You’ll learn the reality of our so called “special forces”.

 

[MikeTheInfantryman]

Nah bro I beg to disagree here
Some units procuring mordern equipments but point being just good pc and mku helmets enough and moreover if u look at them their pc arrangement is poor their plates hanging low
Moreover if specifically speak pc then I haven't seen any infantry with mordern pc except sf
Moreover most of the troops are equipped with 1974 helmets, bpj etc which are damn outdated
Have u come across any procurement initiated by army for winter clothing
Procurement initiation has to be done by military not bureaucracy
Similarly for light tanks drones or pgm for iaf
From RFI to testing rfp is job of army ig bureaucracy comes during selection negotiation and clearance
When basics like winter clothing is not in requirement list that speaks about their training
This logic of we being in training with multiple countries but China by one has popped up many times
Point is these joint trainings ofcourse has importance as exchange of learning occurs but none of significant war is fought on their learning yes we get some impression but u have to go alone wrt tactics and planning
So that isn't significant
The important training is done by the country itself if that's isn't modernized then joint training doesn't have any effect
Rest procurement initiation has to be done by armed forces not MoD if they never initiated that is they never felt requirement that is they never trained or simulated such situation

On the topic of PCs hanging low, I think everyone does that at some point when they get a break. I've seen lots of NATO troops having their PCs low (the big wide ones, not the micro tiny ass ones). I'd say it's a personal option because it gets really sweaty underneath and you have to air it out by leaving the sides open or having it hang loose


On the topic of BPJs, Helmets and other stuff, I still don't see how it boil downs to tactics. Current military thinking is trying to stay modern with old gear, basically make do with what you have right now.


On winter clothing, I think we have the iconic artic clothing right now. Regarding to tundra clothing, there's no standard clothing except for the olive green jackets that you see a lot. And that's a bad camo choice. Seeing as to how the current camo is still having lots of green, a tundra themed one would have been pretty good but again procurement is a mess



Seeing as how Ukrainian units are being rotated back to the rear echelon for training with NATO troops, join training gives a lot of input for "editing" and changing our tactics. Field manuals are changed every decade (and seeing as how luckily or unluckily have some not too old ones with me right now, it's going for Western/NATO standards). Tactics are being improved constantly, so I'd attribute the current lack of attention to personal gear to some amount of confidence in tactics.

 

[Kumaoni]

On the topic of PCs hanging low, I think everyone does that at some point when they get a break. I've seen lots of NATO troops having their PCs low (the big wide ones, not the micro tiny ass ones). I'd say it's a personal option because it gets really sweaty underneath and you have to air it out by leaving the sides open or having it hang loose


On the topic of BPJs, Helmets and other stuff, I still don't see how it boil downs to tactics. Current military thinking is trying to stay modern with old gear, basically make do with what you have right now.


On winter clothing, I think we have the iconic artic clothing right now. Regarding to tundra clothing, there's no standard clothing except for the olive green jackets that you see a lot. And that's a bad camo choice. Seeing as to how the current camo is still having lots of green, a tundra themed one would have been pretty good but again procurement is a mess



Seeing as how Ukrainian units are being rotated back to the rear echelon for training with NATO troops, join training gives a lot of input for "editing" and changing our tactics. Field manuals are changed every decade (and seeing as how luckily or unluckily have some not too old ones with me right now, it's going for Western/NATO standards). Tactics are being improved constantly, so I'd attribute the current lack of attention to personal gear to some amount of confidence in tactics.

if this was in the 1990s, you would be right, as the man behind the machine was more important, but in the 2000s and 2010s, technology has changed rapidly. Compare us soldiers from 1990s and 2000s and you’ll know

 

[MikeTheInfantryman]

Prep yourself for an unforgettable journey from optimism to pessimism
If u have doubts then ask @Kumaoni how it hits differently

Damn thats a dopamine crusher

 

[MikeTheInfantryman]

if this was in the 1990s, you would be right, as the man behind the machine was more important, but in the 2000s and 2010s, technology has changed rapidly. Compare us soldiers from 1990s and 2000s and you’ll know

To be honest, PCs started entering US military since late 2000s, and even with that only the overseas deployed units got the PCs. National Guard and reservists got PCs way later in mid 2010s. Yep it changed a lot though but it's only because they give emphasis on standardization instead of haphazardization. That's also the point I'm trying to make. Infantry gear is not being given priority when the PLA is massively issuing modern gear to most of their frontline units. Although we may be competent in tactics we might be outgunned or just be simply overwhelmed because we lack the gear. It's like you know what to do but you don't have the stuff to do that.


So in a sense, modern tactics with ancient gear = mediocre infantry. There has been no undertaking to standardize personal gear across all arms and corps. The only place where we had done that is the uniform, which is still kind of haphazard but it's at least okay. I'm wondering why not standardize the rest of the personal gear so that we can be upto NATO standards

 

[jai jaganath]

On the topic of PCs hanging low, I think everyone does that at some point when they get a break. I've seen lots of NATO troops having their PCs low (the big wide ones, not the micro tiny ass ones). I'd say it's a personal option because it gets really sweaty underneath and you have to air it out by leaving the sides open or having it hang loose


On the topic of BPJs, Helmets and other stuff, I still don't see how it boil downs to tactics. Current military thinking is trying to stay modern with old gear, basically make do with what you have right now.


On winter clothing, I think we have the iconic artic clothing right now. Regarding to tundra clothing, there's no standard clothing except for the olive green jackets that you see a lot. And that's a bad camo choice. Seeing as to how the current camo is still having lots of green, a tundra themed one would have been pretty good but again procurement is a mess



Seeing as how Ukrainian units are being rotated back to the rear echelon for training with NATO troops, join training gives a lot of input for "editing" and changing our tactics. Field manuals are changed every decade (and seeing as how luckily or unluckily have some not too old ones with me right now, it's going for Western/NATO standards). Tactics are being improved constantly, so I'd attribute the current lack of attention to personal gear to some amount of confidence in tactics.

Even during ops in kashmir as seen in pics they keep their pc low
Even during training they keep their pc low
Anyone can definitely say that's not break
I am specifically speaking about training tactics part was like he said we can judge post war especially for infantry better leave it
Incase of sof it's different
Having poor helmets pc or bpj communication equipments shows poor training
Coz if they aren't procuring it that means they haven't faced the need of it which happens when mordern day war scenarios not being validated
But that's not the case we many exercises being conducted by us in those regions to validate new tactics and simulate situations but even after that shortcomings are been cleared then it questions competency and intent
This winter clothing pc light tanks are tip of iceberg many other issues exists which will take the discussion way long and most importantly I personally forgot many things as I have left following this conflict from Dec 2022
Further point regarding winter clothing drdo has developed recently indigenous one but still no orders initiated
Are they waiting for next conflict to begin
Regarding Ukraine no idea coz I cant give that much time to that thread so I am blind in that case
Basically my focus was despite being very well present in terrain and warfare u guys weren't prepared for any misadventures and had to initiate so called emergency procurements for ur preparedness
Anyway personal opinion many guys here avoid it and consider as rant

 

[MikeTheInfantryman]

Even during ops in kashmir as seen in pics they keep their pc low
Even during training they keep their pc low
Anyone can definitely say that's not break
I am specifically speaking about training tactics part was like he said we can judge post war especially for infantry better leave it
Incase of sof it's different
Having poor helmets pc or bpj communication equipments shows poor training
Coz if they aren't procuring it that means they haven't faced the need of it which happens when mordern day war scenarios not being validated
But that's not the case we many exercises being conducted by us in those regions to validate new tactics and simulate situations but even after that shortcomings are been cleared then it questions competency and intent
This winter clothing pc light tanks are tip of iceberg many other issues exists which will take the discussion way long and most importantly I personally forgot many things as I have left following this conflict from Dec 2022
Further point regarding winter clothing drdo has developed recently indigenous one but still no orders initiated
Are they waiting for next conflict to begin
Regarding Ukraine no idea coz I cant give that much time to that thread so I am blind in that case
Basically my focus was despite being very well present in terrain and warfare u guys weren't prepared for any misadventures and had to initiate so called emergency procurements for ur preparedness
Anyway personal opinion many guys here avoid it and consider as rant

Welp

Well regarding the PCs, I haven't seen most of the pics in which grunts have their PCs low, so idk about that. Tactics are a whole different aspect in which we can only make assumptions rather than solid statements. So we can leave it as that

Regarding exercises, I didn't get your point clearly so welp idk what to say


Thirdly, grey zone warfare has been the (and still is) the Achilles hell of the IA. PLA effectively used their previously uneventful training exercises as a smoke screen for salami slicing in 2020. The fact that we didn't predict that is a shortcoming some will be held accountable for. China has been left alone and the political arena was also set to improve bilateral relations (which was an utter shitshow). Since Pakistan was the main focus and since we were conventionally superior to Pakistan, modernisation slacked. China was the wake up call for mass modernisation, and most officers do argue about doing so, but somehow they're helpless and stuck. We're still not doing enough for infantry gear


Again, training and tactics aren't always dependent on personal gear. Yeah NVGs, PEQ15s and IFAKs does enhance the combat effectiveness of the individual soldier, but the basics kind of remain the same. Yeah having NVGs does increase night fighting capabilities but again it doesn't change a whole tactic. At least that's what I think in my humble opinion. I could be wrong but I still believe tactics aren't fundamentally affected by personal gear

 

[jai jaganath]

Welp

Well regarding the PCs, I haven't seen most of the pics in which grunts have their PCs low, so idk about that. Tactics are a whole different aspect in which we can only make assumptions rather than solid statements. So we can leave it as that

Regarding exercises, I didn't get your point clearly so welp idk what to say


Thirdly, grey zone warfare has been the (and still is) the Achilles hell of the IA. PLA effectively used their previously uneventful training exercises as a smoke screen for salami slicing in 2020. The fact that we didn't predict that is a shortcoming some will be held accountable for. China has been left alone and the political arena was also set to improve bilateral relations (which was an utter shitshow). Since Pakistan was the main focus and since we were conventionally superior to Pakistan, modernisation slacked. China was the wake up call for mass modernisation, and most officers do argue about doing so, but somehow they're helpless and stuck. We're still not doing enough for infantry gear


Again, training and tactics aren't always dependent on personal gear. Yeah NVGs, PEQ15s and IFAKs does enhance the combat effectiveness of the individual soldier, but the basics kind of remain the same. Yeah having NVGs does increase night fighting capabilities but again it doesn't change a whole tactic. At least that's what I think in my humble opinion. I could be wrong but I still believe tactics aren't fundamentally affected by personal gear

In my opinion better equipments changes the conventional tactics and thus increase efficiency and productivity in ops
Anyway this is just a personal take so let's leave it here

 

[Kumaoni]

In my opinion better equipments changes the conventional tactics and thus increase efficiency and productivity in ops
Anyway this is just a personal take so let's leave it here

I think it’s both better equipments as well as exposure to the ground, experience, and resourcefulness in training

 

[MikeTheInfantryman]

Current PLA small arms armament. They've taken an interesting calibre. Regarding the range, seems sub optimal but apparently the rifles are made for urban combat. Let's see how this works in mountainous terrain

Seeing as how US is inducting the XM7 (basically a battle rifle) in 6.8x51mm, It outguns the current Chinese calibre in range and power.

7.62mm weapons still wins tho compared to the QBZ-191. Interesting thing to note not all the weapons, at least the QBZ 191 and 192 will be present in a conventional unit.