India-China Border conflict

[AnantS]

CCP are fools , they will risk war with India over a few square km of waste land . Indian gov is not asking back land but for a buffer zone - pretty much a win-win for both sides .

PLA very well knows fighting a war with India now wont be like bullying Vietnam or Taiwan . thats y there was disengagement at pangong tso .there in the end we got what we wanted a "buffer zone" -

last big stand off in arunachal pradesh went on for 7 years . like now both sides brought in divisions for war , , IAF migs used to do recon flying all over Tibet , but it ended peacefully , chinese vacated their forward position this will end similarly , most likely with a buffer zone at pp15 and depsang .

China's main aim is to grab all water and natural resources rich land in himalayas- making northen India at mercy of china. So nibbling of land whenever India becomes enamored by prospects of Hindi Chinn Bhai Bhai and progressing 100 Sq km every decade should not be taken lightly.

Indian like playing Chess Defeating Vajeer, killing Ghoda and outing of Emperor is What defines our End goal. After that we Return to our barracks. CHINESE ON OTHER hand play Chinese Chequers, Move in horde patiently to occupy opposite space

 

[hit&run]

Baba got patrolled by official handle of army

The guy was given benefit of doubt and allowed all his conspiracy theories.
Looks like people stop using discretion and revoke self control on themselves when get attention for all the good or wrong reasons. BTW a majority of our members stopped taking him seriously few years ago. I hope he will man-up and use his SM influence with better content and information.

 

[hit&run]

Talk is cheap.

Then. show images or vidoes Of PLA in galwan conflict taken from ur side.


BTW another question. Why IA as you claimed won the battle But not pla soldier got captured. But meanwhile PLA sent batch of IA back to India from our released images? Any explanation?

This has been already explained. Stop recycling old Chinese rants which its propaganda machinery used to save their beaten face at the very start.

 

[hit&run]

Okay, so I think I can summarise a few things.

How it started -

5th May : The author says the escalation started with a physical brawl at North Pangong Tso on the 5th of May. A patrol from 17 Kumaon Btn had a violent fight with a Chinese patrol, with both sides having grievous injuries, but not life-threatening. The author also mentions that this fight was in a different area than that of the August 2017 clash which was videotaped (probably referring to this).

7th May : A small number of 16th Bihar troops led by 2-in-C Lt.Col. Ravi Kant (hereafter referred only by Col. RK) ventured across PP14 to confront a Chinese patrol that clearly strayed past its usual limits. There was a small physical fight resulting in light injuries to both sides.

9th May : Brigade commander visits Galwan to take stock of the situation. Meanwhile, another physical brawl takes place in Naku La, Sikkim, including a large number of troops, resulting in heavy injuries to both sides.

Between 9th May & 6th June : Both sides patrol till PP14. A series of meetings take place between local commanders at multiple clash points. Higher-level intervention sought looking at the declining situation.

6th June : Fire & Fury Corps commander Lt.Gen. Harinder Singh meets with his counterpart Maj. Gen. Lin Liu at Chusul. The meeting was unexpectedly cordial, which leads MEA to issue a statement saying "Sb Changa Si".

7th June : Escalation continues, Chinese soldiers set up tents near the makeshift helipad at PP14. Soldiers have heated discussions, and thereafter Chinese moved back. However, the Chinese refused to retreat further than PP14, which Indian Army considers LAC. (bit contradicting and confusing)

Between 7th to 14th June : 4 separate meetings between local commanders at Galwan, but Chinese troops refuses to move back any further than PP14. Instead, they reinforce their positions with more tents & equipment on that triangular piece of land circumscribed by the bend of Galwan river.

15th June : Chinese army set up an observation post at the river bend. 16th Bihar C.O, Col. Santosh Babu's patience ran out as Chinese setting up tents & equipment at PP14 was enough provocation.

3 PM : Col. Santosh Babu (hereafter referred only by Col. SB) orders 75 troops to be sent to PP14. They were to dismantle the Chinese tents and push back Chinese soldiers. 75 troops from 16th Bihar reaches PP14 by 3:30 PM on 7 vehicles.

3:30 PM : Seeing approaching IA men, a group of Chinese soldiers led by their C.O, Maj. Chen Hongjun (hereafter referred only by Maj. CH), confronts the 16th Bihar troops. Chinese soldiers instantly react belligerently, pushing & shoving our soldiers, including Col. SB.

Col. SB tries one last time to communicate peacefully, but everybody knew things were already decided when Chinese tried to assault Col. SB. Physical fight starts between Indian & Chinese soldiers. Chinese soldiers pick up rocks & start pelting them at Indian troops. Few Chinese soldiers run up the cliff to throw rocks from a vantage point.

After a few minutes of hand-to-hand brawl and stone pelting, Chinese soldiers are defeated, and they retreat. However, 6 Chinese soldiers, including Maj. CH & his interpreter Chen Xiangrong (hereby referred to only by CX), get badly injured and are unable to retreat. 2-3 Chinese officers and 4-5 Chinese soldiers remained on the Indian side, and are provided first-aid immediately.

Evening ? : As light starts fading, medics rush to administer first-aid to injured. Chinese officers & soldiers are provided first-aid in priority over Indian soldiers. Col S.B. tries to revive Chinese interpreter CX who was unconscious from head injury. Chinese interpreter was crucial in communicating with Chinese soldiers for a truce, as Col. SB. tries unsuccessfully to communicate with Chinese soldiers with a Megaphone.

Dusk : Stone pelting stops for few minutes, with Chinese soldiers now mainly retreating & hurling abuses from a distance. Col. SB senses the situation has crossed the point of no return. He calls for more reinforcements. Soldiers from 3 Punjab, 81 Field Regt. and 3 Med. Regt. arrive at PP14 shortly, with Indian strength totalling around 400 troops.

7:30 PM : Under the cover of darkness, the main Chinese assault arrives within minutes of Indian reinforcement, totalling more than 1200 Chinese soldiers. These soldiers were from a completely different unit, and were equipped with clubs, maces & barded wires around their fists and weapons. They were wearing riot-control gear like padded helmets, carbon-fiber shields and carrying LED flashlight batons to disorient the enemy in the dark.

A complete stampede takes place. Chinese main force overruns the previous Chinese troops and injured on the ground. Col. RK says it was a possibility their own forces were trampled and injured in this charge.
400 Indian soldiers clash with 1200 well-equipped Chinese soldiers. Complete chaos ensures. One group of Indian soldiers moved ahead to confront the Chinese were seperated from the main force, and aftermath, captured.

8 PM : Violent fighting has spread across the valley, and continues in multiple isolated pockets. Medics rush to administer first-aid to injured, irrespective of nationality.

8:30 PM : Base contacts soldiers for whereabouts of Col. SB, as he was untracable and no radio contact can be established. Injured Indian soldiers ferried back to base camp for treatment.

~9 PM : Fresh Chinese assault, this time from Chinese Special Forces. Fiercest fighting of the day starts and continues till 9:30 PM.

10:30 PM : Things fall quiet. Chinese retreat to their side, Galwan valley littered with severely injured soldiers from both sides. Indian side starts headcount, casaulty identification & evacuation starts.

16th June :

12:00 Midnight : Col. SB's body found, and quickly taken to base hospital.

01:30 AM : Efforts to revive Col. SB fails, body sent to Army field hospital Durbuk.

Throughout the night, search and identification of Indian soldiers were carried out. No such mention of Chinese doing the same.

04:00 AM : Col. RK, 2nd-IC 16th Bihar, who missed the fight due to his work in Leh, reaches PP14, and rallies his troops & motivates them. He orders a small group of soldiers to climb the highest point around PP14 and establish an observation post.

06:00 AM : Dhruv helicopter used to ferry out griveously injured to better-quipped hospital at Leh.

09:00 AM : Most of the casualties now have been account for, except for the advanced party which moved ahead and was captured (this was not known at that time).

Medic Deepak's body discovered deeper into Chinese side, his wounds still fresh, signalling he was killed recently (and not part of the conflict). Around 1 PM, when his body was brought to Galwan base camp, his wounds were still fresh and blood flowing. He appeared to have been killed by some sharp object. Subedar Sahu of 16th Bihar, insists he was killed by the Chinese in cold blood after capturing him.

The battlefield was littered with dead Chinese soldiers. Throughout the night, the injured Chinese soldiers were pulled out of the area where the fighting took place to the PLA positions in the depth beyond PP14.

"Since the time we assembled in the area in the morning, we had spotted dead bodies of many Chinese soldiers lying around. Our orders were not to touch them, as the Chinese were expected to retrieve them later", says Havildar Dharamvir.

Afternoon : Chinese soldiers arrive with stretchers to take back casualties. (Now lying in freezing temperatures for more than 12 hours). Indian observation post above keeps an eye on Chinese casualties being evacuated by multiple ambulances and helicopters, and count at least 36 Chinese casualties being evacuated, although a conservative estimate can be made of at least half of them being dead.

18th June, 05:30 PM : China returns back 10 soldiers who were isolated & captured during the brawl, including 2 Majors, 2 Captains, and 6 soldiers through PP14.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is not even 50% of what is written, I skipped personal stories, incidents and fight descriptions in light of summarising the event.

Recommend folks to buy this book.

So basically 1200 fully equipped PLA multiple units vs 400+ Indian soldiers.

More Chinese casualities.

Didn’t pick their dead bodies for 12 hours. (This information came at the very start but didn’t get much traction)

Chinese hostility on ground when their sissy diplomats talked peace.

India Army acted professionally and sticked not to escalate.

Our medic who was forced to give them first aid, later killed in cold blood because he would have revealed exact numbers of their dead.

Whole nation, one of P5s goes mum and grew no balls for months to name its martyrs with silly excuses. Then releases select photographs of Indian contingent that invade deep into their side and only stopped fighting when the battle settled after Chinese retreated at the front in panic after knowing many of its troops are unaccounted.

At the end just imagine the unprofessionalism and panic of PLA (I call militia) that acted like a medieval force who charges enemy cluster by trampling its own tired troops who are getting defeated and retreating.

Well done PLA.

 

[omaebakabaka]

So basically 1200 fully equipped PLA multiple units vs 400+ Indian soldiers.

More Chinese casualities.

Didn’t not pick their dead bodies for 12 hours. (This information came at the very start but didn’t get much traction)

Chinese hostility on ground when their sissy diplomats talked peace.

India Army acted professionally and sticked not to escalate.

Our medic who was forced to give them first aid, later killed in cold blood because he would have revealed exact numbers of their dead.

Whole nation, one of P5s goes mum and grew no balls for months to name its martyrs with silly excuses. Then releases select photographs of Indian contingent that invade deep into their side and only stopped fighting when the battle settled after Chinese retreated at the front in panic after knowing many of its troops are unaccounted.

At the end just imagine the unprofessionalism and panic of PLA (I call militia) that acted like a medieval force who charges enemy cluster by trampling its own tired troops who are getting defeated and retreating.

Well done PLA.

We all acknowledge the IA's bravery and deeds but why the heck we are always blindsided and fail on intel? Is it the training or what, I would like to see 1200 of ours thrashing 600 of theirs for once....this is not threta yug to bound by the rules to show kindness. No IA men should lose their life to this scum or paki scum....too much restraint on our side. Treating theirs over ours first, wtf? There is a line between professionalism and being stupid...send the fear down the spine if you are soldier against hans and islamists. There will not be reciprocation of kindness from either

 

[hit&run]

We all acknowledge the IA's bravery and deeds but why the heck we are always blindsided and fail on intel? Is it the training or what, I would like to see 1200 of ours thrashing 600 of theirs for once....this is not a treata yug to be bound by the rules to show kindness? No IA men should lose their life to this scum or paki scum....too much restraint on our side. Treating theirs over ours first, wtf? There is a line between professionalism and being stupid...send the fear down the spine if you are a soldier against Hans and Islamists. There will not be a reciprocation of kindness from either

A lot has been discussed on this concern.

If I can use the example of Balakot air bombing of Pakistani mainland by IAF which Pakistan retaliated with very overwhelming PAF ingress that fizzled out even before it started you will hear a lot of cacophony from both sides of analysts but not the conclusion which can be drawn out from utterances of IAF leadership and dispassionate analysis of IAF actions and reactions or lack of it.

If one can invest in those analyses and draw the right conclusions to then superimpose them on other branches of our forces who are mostly cut from the same fabric and on top of that all subservient to ruling political dispensation and security establishment with the same monotonous outlook one can easily read how our security calculous against Pakistan and China works and classify escalations.

The Air skirmish we had with Pakistan after strategic escalation lead by IAF, cleverly wrapped with word play of only attacking terrorist camp not Pakistani military the Pakistani response was categorised as failed tactical oneupmanship which was thwarted by just a miser IAF CAP action. There was nothing to read more into that but we still gave the warning to escalate further at the time and place our choice to end that thread.

The same categorisation of Chinese belligerence and escalation is at work here. I may disapprove of them but there is prudence in not to skew those lines and create disorder among ranks who would like to enjoy more tactical independence read go rogue like PLA.

Chinese tactics so far have been to do salami-slicing for our lands which in strategic terms make no sense and can be undone in half a day of combined IA and IAF action. I have no reason to give unsolicited tips to China-man but they have been acting like a fool who will end up investing more in propaganda victory than giving any good assurance to its forces who may be expecting some good military learning here to face future challenges with other adversaries.

India will not act in haste and would like to play by the rule book as it is healthy not only on an organisational level but on the overall takeaway point that there will be losses and gains in any case.

 

[omaebakabaka]

A lot has been discussed on this concern.

If I can use the example of Balakot air bombing of Pakistani mainland by IAF which Pakistan retaliated with very overwhelming PAF ingress that fizzled out even before it started you will hear a lot of cacophony from both sides of analysts but not the conclusion which can be drawn out from utterances of IAF leadership and dispassionate analysis of IAF actions and reactions or lack of it.

If one can invest in those analyses and draw the right conclusions to then superimpose them on other branches of our forces who are mostly cut from the same fabric and on top of that all subservient to ruling political dispensation and security establishment with the same monotonous outlook one can easily read how our security calculous against Pakistan and China works and classify escalations.

The Air skirmish we had with Pakistan after strategic escalation lead by IAF, cleverly wrapped with word play of only attacking terrorist camp not Pakistani military the Pakistani response was categorised as failed tactical oneupmanship which was thwarted by just a miser IAF CAP action. There was nothing to read more into that but we still gave the warning to escalate further at the time and place our choice to end that thread.

The same categorisation of Chinese belligerence and escalation is at work here. I may disapprove of them but there is prudence in not to skew those lines and create disorder among ranks who would like to enjoy more tactical independence read go rogue like PLA.

Chinese tactics so far have been to do salami-slicing for our lands which in strategic terms make no sense and can be undone in half a day of combined IA and IAF action. I have no reason to give unsolicited tips to China-man but they have been acting like a fool who will end up investing more in propaganda victory than giving any good assurance to its forces who may be expecting some good military learning here to face future challenges with other adversaries.

India will not act in haste and would like to play by the rule book as it is healthy not only on an organisational level but on the overall takeaway point that there will be losses and gains in any case.

I would like to agree with you but historically we are not in black overall regarding land considering its all our land to begin with, so for once we need to be aggressive even if it does not end well for us. This historic calculated passive slumber needs to end in my opinion, its a wrong type of wisdom that has taken root over us due to political impotency paralyzing the military which ends up shedding needless blood in applying restraint. I have relatives in forces and I hate any of them losing their lives over poor strategy. I am seeing more aggressiveness from Modiji but I guess we are not yet ready to take them on if it goes full retard. Not asking for recklessness but fear needs to be instilled back into the enemy. I don't like the 300 style retardness, to some it appeals but for me go on offence like US not defensive Russia which ends up shedding too much blood and money

 

[hit&run]

I would like to agree with you but historically we are not in black overall regarding land considering its all our land to begin with, so for once we need to be aggressive even if it does not end well for us. This historic calculated passive slumber needs to end in my opinion, its a wrong type of wisdom that has taken root over us due to political impotency paralyzing the military which ends up shedding needless blood in applying restraint. I have relatives in forces and I hate any of them losing their lives over poor strategy. I am seeing more aggressiveness from Modiji but I guess we are not yet ready to take them on if it goes full retard. Not asking for recklessness but fear needs to be instilled back into the enemy. I don't like the 300 style retardness, to some it appeals but for me go on offence like US not defensive Russia which ends up shedding too much blood and money

There are two main factors we have to look into.

Escalation and Sustainability.

In my understanding, the Chinese have the same hindrances rather they have more odd variables to manage than we do. That is why they appear to be more in a haste on infrastructure, Ironing out geographical disadvantages and even ready to lose their advance defences if India decides to go berserk.

Since both are even on unlimited uncontrolled escalation and sustainability up to 2nd wave which in our case is 3rd or 4th and 1st or 2nd as far as IAF is a concern there is more than what meets the eye.

I can only guess, that the Chinese do not want to fight but looking for an exit or favourable permanent agreement. Following that possibility which can be totally wrong, it has now all reduced down to India reading it correctly and obliging. I mean I am saying it from a Chinese perspective.

From India's perspective, the Chinese are being idealists here because India has nothing to negotiate even if we remove the usual crap of internal pressure on the ruling party. Having said that, the Chinese can not be trusted is not a mere slogan but correct profiling of their national strategic interests which they will never compromise and may come back to renegociate previous agreements by force.

Therefore only correct course for both India and China is to go to war and win as many frontiers as they can to then reset the disputes on new geographical lines for future generations to fight it out diplomatically or militarily.

Since the war is inevitable we must not rush and set achievable targets so that in future we too have a lot of bargain chips and a lot to rub on their faces.

What we can do in short term depends on what we have designed for the long term. Hopefully, India will go for some kinetic action and test Chinese escalation than simply staying there in a guessing offensive posture. It is good for IA and IAF to run some offensive pilot projects, do counter salami-slicing to reassure long-term planning and show our intent to the world at large.

 

[rockdog]

So basically 1200 fully equipped PLA multiple units vs 400+ Indian soldiers.

More Chinese casualities.

Didn’t pick their dead bodies for 12 hours. (This information came at the very start but didn’t get much traction)

Chinese hostility on ground when their sissy diplomats talked peace.

India Army acted professionally and sticked not to escalate.

Our medic who was forced to give them first aid, later killed in cold blood because he would have revealed exact numbers of their dead.

Whole nation, one of P5s goes mum and grew no balls for months to name its martyrs with silly excuses. Then releases select photographs of Indian contingent that invade deep into their side and only stopped fighting when the battle settled after Chinese retreated at the front in panic after knowing many of its troops are unaccounted.

At the end just imagine the unprofessionalism and panic of PLA (I call militia) that acted like a medieval force who charges enemy cluster by trampling its own tired troops who are getting defeated and retreating.

Well done PLA.

Why PLA captured so many POW if PLA lost the battle... Normally who controls the battle field who have chance to harvest POWs.

 

[ezsasa]

Yes India may not need that port but Iranian needs it.
You signed the contract to build that for them but failed to deliver in time.
What that will tell Iranians?

intruding into conversations, why so nervous, what's cooking?
is something about to happen to Xi in Nov?

 

[Marliii]

Why PLA captured so many POW if PLA lost the battle... Normally who controls the battle field who have chance to harvest POWs.

Why PLA so quiet about casulties if they lost so few soldiers ...normally the one who got butt f*cked would stay silent in the fear of embarresment

 

[rockdog]

Why PLA so quiet about casulties if they lost so few soldiers ...normally the one who got butt f*cked would stay silent in the fear of embarresment

I repeated again and again in this forum, China didn't want full scale war. Humiliate IA is not our strategic aim, the tactic aim was holding the disputed area in GALWAN, they did.

 

[Whatever]

I repeated again and again in this forum, China didn't want full scale war. Humiliate IA is not our strategic aim, the tactic aim was holding the disputed area in GALWAN, they did.

The tactic aim was to intrude and they got butt f*cked in it, so they are quite about their casualities as Xi pig can't come out and say to the world that we are paper tiger and got f*cked when our troops tried to salami slice the land.

 

[Whatever]

I repeated again and again in this forum, China didn't want full scale war. Humiliate IA is not our strategic aim, the tactic aim was holding the disputed area in GALWAN, they did.

Bitch, your golbal times CCP mouthpiece and barking dogs of CCP don't loose a single chance to bad mouth IA and India, if your strategic aim was not to humiliate IA then why cry and release a half cut video to save your ass?

 

[Whatever]

I repeated again and again in this forum, China didn't want full scale war. Humiliate IA is not our strategic aim, the tactic aim was holding the disputed area in GALWAN, they did.

How much time did your master Xi took to announce and accept even 4 casualities bitch try to remember?
Rest of them died dogs death without even getting a burial or acceptance from your CCP.

 

[another_armchair]

Chinese casevac lasted well into the evening of 16th June.

No mention of Indian Special Forces involved in the early hours of 16th and thereafter.

No mention of 'high ranking' Chinese officer in our custody either.

Wonder how many Maotards were bludgeoned to death by IA that PLA brutally assaulted our POW's who were in their custody.

 

[mist_consecutive]

3 separate brawls, 'outsider' Chinese troops & more: Most detailed account of the brutal June 15 Galwan battle

Plenty has been written so far about the clash between Indian and Chinese troops in Ladakh's Galwan Valley. But India Today brings you the most detailed account of the brutal June 15 Galwan battle.

www.indiatoday.in

Here is Shiv's version in 2020, many a details are contrary to what he has claimed in the book. I am curious to understand why were these reports manipulated?

Actually, if you read the book (where more detailed information is given), you will realize both version actually compliments each other. Nothing is "contrary" here, only details have been shifted by time, which is common when you talk to multiple sources (and they will have different time perceptions).

For example, the book mentions that 3rd wave of attack happened somewhere at 9-10 PM, however, the article mentions it being sometime after 11. Book and article also correctly state Col. Santosh Babu's demise in the second wave, and that we won the first wave.

The article also correctly states that 10 of our soldiers were taken captive, and we took some of theirs as well.

We all acknowledge the IA's bravery and deeds but why the heck we are always blindsided and fail on intel? Is it the training or what, I would like to see 1200 of ours thrashing 600 of theirs for once....this is not threta yug to bound by the rules to show kindness. No IA men should lose their life to this scum or paki scum....too much restraint on our side. Treating theirs over ours first, wtf? There is a line between professionalism and being stupid...send the fear down the spine if you are soldier against hans and islamists. There will not be reciprocation of kindness from either

That is because you don't hear the cases where our opponents are thrashed badly. They duly hide their casualties and spin their narrative. Perks of having state-controlled media and absolute dictatorship.

You don't hear about the thrashing of Chinese at Naku La, you don't hear about the thrashing & capturing of a large number of Chinese soldiers at Tawang (after which they released more Galwan pictures in revenge, ), in fact, you don't even hear the operation details of Op. Snow Leopard. apart from few tidbits.

Chinese state propaganda machinery works like a well-oiled engine, churning news and propaganda as required for its consumption of domestic audience. Indian army is not concerned about anything as such.

 

[mist_consecutive]

Look, who is facing a 2-front war now

 

[Kumaoni]

@mist_consecutive how were our men captured? It still slips my grasp of understanding

 

[mist_consecutive]

@mist_consecutive how were our men captured? It still slips my grasp of understanding

I thought you were reading the book ? Anyway I mentioned it in my summary.