India-China Border conflict

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Stop please. WS-15 and WS-13 are different. Would be pretty hilarious if someone tried slamming a WS-15 in a JF-17. It would become a crime scene.
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As for your rant on ICs being imported from outside China, your claim that "China hasn't mastered this tech" is patently false. What do you think I was talking about when I said ArF laser? They are targeting mastering 28nm node end-end within China, which will happen by 2025 at least. And their research for higher nodes is running parallel to this.
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Just so you know, the only fab in India currently is SCL of ISRO, which can make 180 nm node chips. Chinese can actually build machines that can build 90 nm node chips right now. See that? We can build the chips, and they build the machines to build chips denser than ours. The difference is ridiculously large, obviously because our government's thrust was not in this area. But its still a far cry from your delusions that China is only relying on stolen IPs and are not that far ahead when compared to India.

We really need to read more and talk less when it comes to the Chinese.
WS15 is an unproven, unreliable engine.

https://en.topwar.ru/190602-resheni...moj-zadachej-dlja-kitajskih-specialistov.html


WS15 is a bigger version (more thrust) of WS13, which is a reverse engineer copy of Klimov RD93. You can search this for yourself.
 

Kumaoni

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Stop please. WS-15 and WS-13 are different. Would be pretty hilarious if someone tried slamming a WS-15 in a JF-17. It would become a crime scene.
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As for your rant on ICs being imported from outside China, your claim that "China hasn't mastered this tech" is patently false. What do you think I was talking about when I said ArF laser? They are targeting mastering 28nm node end-end within China, which will happen by 2025 at least. And their research for higher nodes is running parallel to this.
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Just so you know, the only fab in India currently is SCL of ISRO, which can make 180 nm node chips. Chinese can actually build machines that can build 90 nm node chips right now. See that? We can build the chips, and they build the machines to build chips denser than ours. The difference is ridiculously large, obviously because our government's thrust was not in this area. But its still a far cry from your delusions that China is only relying on stolen IPs and are not that far ahead when compared to India.

We really need to read more and talk less when it comes to the Chinese.
True. Even to this day we still don’t know how the Chinese infiltrated behind our lines which such ease in 1962. People still buy the rubbish “CoNsCrIpT ArMY dId fRoNtaL cHaRgEs” shit when in reality they used entirely different tactics in 1962 than IA ever saw.
 
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True. Even to this day we still don’t know how the Chinese infiltrated behind our lines which such ease in 1962. People still buy the rubbish “CoNsCrIpT ArMY dId fRoNtaL cHaRgEs” shit when in reality they used entirely different tactics in 1962 than IA ever saw.
PLA I believe were battle hardened too - I think they fought the Korean War and took bloody casualties. Plus they had momentum from militarily annexing Tibet which our stupid politicians did not think of as a threat due to the Panchsheel doctrine. The reality is India’s entire strategic apparatus failed due to lack of foresight and naïveté.
 

Okabe Rintarou

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WS15 is an unproven, unreliable engine. And there is no confirmation or proof that Chinese have mastered scb tech for highly durable, long life engines. At best it is a notch below Klimov RD series engines. The point I am making is not that Chinese are not ahead of us in R&D and industry-academia collaborations but a lot of their technology does not necessarily pose a national security threat to us. Plus it is not a given that Chinese are ahead of India in every single infrastructure. For example, India now has the world’s largest synchronous, single frequency power grid. You can look up for yourselves the advantages of a single frequency, integrated power grid. China does not. So Indian engineers are able to achieve cutting edge infrastructure at scale. But India is not in a position to spend at the level of China in general R&D; That day will come. But India has an advantage - the west trusts India with its top tech defense manufacturing, which may not allow india to get its hands on that fire walled technology but it will give rise to an ecosystem of thousands of Indian aerospace and defense engineers well trained in top engineering standards. These people will then go and build their own tech and that’s really when our tech will take off. That is why I keep saying privatizing defense and aerospace initiatives by GoI is a huge step to achieve pole position in a variety of technologies.
If Chinese are developing tech to advance themselves in civilian areas with no military threats to us, we should not be bothered to match all their civilian tech. Let’s say if they are able to master and deploy 6G tech, we should not focus on that but rather be known for operating the largest digital payment interface in the world even if on 4G or 5G tech. Despite everything India is still able to design and deploy its own 700MW Fastbreeder reactors and has been able to develop critical technology like cryogenic engines, futuristic rocket fuels, advanced radars, miniaturized nuke reactors, several advanced industrial systems like boilers, turbines, generators, transformers, advanced components for missiles etc. And is able to proceed even if slowly on mastering ultra critical tech like SCB, 5G, vaccines, air breathing tech, antiSAT weapons, Space based Quantum Key technology etc. With more money and experience we will certainly do more. If Indians can build a company like Skyroot Aerospace with several original tech in quick time, we can do so in a variety of other areas.
I agree with your point that Chinese have more R&D funds and that we have much stronger diplomatic ties with other nations so we are not in dire straits the way Chinese are when it comes to technology. We can substitute weaker domestic tech with foreign tech and still match or even exceed Chinese technology on the field.
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I am not sure we should not be worried at all that Chinese civilian tech is ahead of ours, because armies fight battles and nations fight wars. But I get your point, its not of immediate military concern, not a direct threat to us.
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But we must also not think that the Chinese fundamentally strengthening their R&D sector would not give them a military tech edge in the long run. It will. And at that time, it would be a direct threat and we won't have the luxury to point to the fact that the Chinese had a headstart.
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And we must always be wary of a G2 forming between US and China (even if the possibility seems low right now) for if that happens, we could find ourselves in the crosshairs of two entities that rule the tech of this world. And so, we must tirelessly pursue domestic tech in critical areas through national missions the way Chinese created their own lithography machines.

I never claimed that WS 15 was production ready. But its close since its already flying.

RD-33 series uses directionally solidified blades. WS-15 uses single crystal blades. Therefore my assertion that they are very different. Obviously if you think the layman way, that WS-15 is enlarged version of an engine reverse engineered from RD93, you'd think they are the same. They aren't.
 

karn

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RD-33 series uses directionally solidified blades. WS-15 uses single crystal blades. Therefore my assertion that they are very different. Obviously if you think the layman way, that WS-15 is enlarged version of an engine reverse engineered from RD93, you'd think they are the same. They aren't.
Maybe Offtopic but ..
What is our level exactly ? Can we make the Al 31 and rd 33 without russian hand holding since I remember seeing directionally solidified blades from DRDO atleast 10 years ago.
 

Okabe Rintarou

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Maybe Offtopic but ..
What is our level exactly ? Can we make the Al 31 and rd 33 without russian hand holding since I remember seeing directionally solidified blades from DRDO atleast 10 years ago.
Yep, we can. Theoretically. But there could be some issues like the afterburner instability we encountered during the test phase in Kaveri engine. So its really hard to say for sure until the engineering is already done, but right now, at least theoretically, we could say its within our capabilities. In fact, Al-31 was being built by HAL from raw material stage if I remember right.
 
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I agree with your point that Chinese have more R&D funds and that we have much stronger diplomatic ties with other nations so we are not in dire straits the way Chinese are when it comes to technology. We can substitute weaker domestic tech with foreign tech and still match or even exceed Chinese technology on the field.
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I am not sure we should not be worried at all that Chinese civilian tech is ahead of ours, because armies fight battles and nations fight wars. But I get your point, its not of immediate military concern, not a direct threat to us.
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But we must also not think that the Chinese fundamentally strengthening their R&D sector would not give them a military tech edge in the long run. It will. And at that time, it would be a direct threat and we won't have the luxury to point to the fact that the Chinese had a headstart.
.
And we must always be wary of a G2 forming between US and China (even if the possibility seems low right now) for if that happens, we could find ourselves in the crosshairs of two entities that rule the tech of this world. And so, we must tirelessly pursue domestic tech in critical areas through national missions the way Chinese created their own lithography machines.


I never claimed that WS 15 was production ready. But its close since its already flying.

RD-33 series uses directionally solidified blades. WS-15 uses single crystal blades. Therefore my assertion that they are very different. Obviously if you think the layman way, that WS-15 is enlarged version of an engine reverse engineered from RD93, you'd think they are the same. They aren't.
Thanks for this education. It always feels like there is a connection between versions like in software.Like I said they are generally ahead in R&D including advanced aircraft systems including the capability to put together a commercial passenger jet body. But how, if at all, these technologies affect our national security and if we need to follow them on every tech stream they develop is not clear at all. maybe we should focus on building powerful unmanned, reliable aerial vehicles with in-house designed engines engines as a real deterrent and not invest in piloted air force technology, where we just buy and assemble from the west. Maybe we just focus on hypersonic flight and building MOAB or TsarBomba style mega bombs and procure long range bombers. Maybe we focus on EW and CEW weapons. Maybe we focus on having the best AI driven network warfare. The Chinese cannot focus on everything. Not even the US can. That is why NASA flew its astronauts in Soyuz spacecrafts to service the ISS. What we need to do is to put down a list of 5 critical weapons tech we want to develop and go all out in developing that. Spreading ourselves too thin with the limited resources and talent we have is not an option at this stage.
‘It is not a given that CCP will reach the critical technologies they want to develop to end US’ tech dominance by 2025, especially if they were banking on stealing IP to do so. That path is now shut for them. What worries me more is do we have a deliberate list of 5 or 10 core technologies we want to become world #1 in and then work to achieving that by a certain timeframe? A lack of such a systematic process and setting aside a budget to achieve them is what is bothering me a lot - not the Chinese progress or lack of in achieving critical tech.
 

Okabe Rintarou

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Thanks for this education. It always feels like there is a connection between versions like in software.Like I said they are generally ahead in R&D including advanced aircraft systems including the capability to put together a commercial passenger jet body. But how, if at all, these technologies affect our national security and if we need to follow them on every tech stream they develop is not clear at all. maybe we should focus on building powerful unmanned, reliable aerial vehicles with in-house designed engines engines as a real deterrent and not invest in piloted air force technology, where we just buy and assemble from the west. Maybe we just focus on hypersonic flight and building MOAB or TsarBomba style mega bombs and procure long range bombers. Maybe we focus on EW and CEW weapons. Maybe we focus on having the best AI driven network warfare. The Chinese cannot focus on everything. Not even the US can. That is why NASA flew its astronauts in Soyuz spacecrafts to service the ISS. What we need to do is to put down a list of 5 critical weapons tech we want to develop and go all out in developing that. Spreading ourselves too thin with the limited resources and talent we have is not an option at this stage.
‘It is not a given that CCP will reach the critical technologies they want to develop to end US’ tech dominance by 2025, especially if they were banking on stealing IP to do so. That path is now shut for them. What worries me more is do we have a deliberate list of 5 or 10 core technologies we want to become world #1 in and then work to achieving that by a certain timeframe? A lack of such a systematic process and setting aside a budget to achieve them is what is bothering me a lot - not the Chinese progress or lack of in achieving critical tech.
I agree. We need to focus on certain core areas instead of trying to match the enemy pound for pound, as far as national projects are concerned. Maybe we should have a separate thread for this topic: A list of technologies that need to be pursued as National Missions.
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You've already listed most of them. Now we need to break it down further. Such as Hypersonics can be broken into R&D in computational magnetohydrodynamics, materials research in UHTCMCs, R&D in endothermic fuels, high temperature and shock ruggedized avionics and communication through plasma, etc.
 

Cheran

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MOU
1655105183824.png



Rahul Gandhi upset over Indian company winning power project bid in Sri Lanka, uses debunked claims made in The Wire report to attack Modi govt

It is notable here that the official named MMC Ferdinando had stated the very next that his claims were wrong and he had become "emotional" due to some questions that made him uneasy.
1655105254500.png
 

OFBkaRakhwala

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Don't speak about IITians. They are a seperate breed whom I don't understand. My relative who is a Chemical engineer from IIT got a job in a big business advisory company. I don't understand what will a chemical engineer do in it. He spent 4 years in gaining knowledge about a subject, but is going in a field where it is not at all required.
Probably cause he studies the other subject in his free time and had interest in the other subject.
 

Physx32

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Don't speak about IITians. They are a seperate breed whom I don't understand. My relative who is a Chemical engineer from IIT got a job in a big business advisory company. I don't understand what will a chemical engineer do in it. He spent 4 years in gaining knowledge about a subject, but is going in a field where it is not at all required.
Do you live under a rock? What will an IITian or infact any engineering graduate do when there are almost no jobs in their specialized fields? India doesn't have much industries to employ all graduates in core disciplines, that's why most (including me) work in a different field than my subject.

India is not a dream land full of abundant jobs like you're thinking. So think hard before you call others "separate breed".
 

India Super Power

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If we go by that logic
I would definitely say kaveri is less reliable than any Chinese engine
Bcoz atleast they are flying and being mass manufactured thus defect getting rectified and solved in our case where our kaveri flying
Their tech is much better than ours and advanced also not only that their manufacturing is better than us and they manufacture critical technology products which currently we can dream of
But even if we speak in less details then atleast they have some sort od semiconductor manufacturing capability and most advanced in fab manufacturing atleast in screens and all
Their critical equipment manufacturing is competing western nation
I don't think currently we should say something about their growth if we see our condition of manufacturing no chips no fabs many other even basic manufacturing are have to be done
Atleast they have credible solar panels manufacturing capability
I won't post further if u write something and importantly I am definitely not knowledgeable like you
U have more knowledge and education than me and I have to learn many things so I may have spoken something wrong
Writing further may lead to my ban
 

mokoman

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Yet we lost 20 soldiers to this supposedly weak army. Why isn’t there an inquiry into what went down at Galwan? How did they manage to ambush unarmed Indian soldiers so perfectly, and how did they plan this meticulously to outnumber our soldiers by at least 5:1?
beating a dead horse at this point. but what is there to know ?

both sides agreed to a limited disengagement before clash , we withdraw from across PP14 ,

chinese then backstabbed us .

their goal was to build 1 bridge + a road along the banks right upto PP14.

clash happens , they blocked river , build the road , and once that road was completed , they decided to call truce and withdrew.
 
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If we go by that logic
I would definitely say kaveri is less reliable than any Chinese engine
Bcoz atleast they are flying and being mass manufactured thus defect getting rectified and solved in our case where our kaveri flying
Their tech is much better than ours and advanced also not only that their manufacturing is better than us and they manufacture critical technology products which currently we can dream of
But even if we speak in less details then atleast they have some sort od semiconductor manufacturing capability and most advanced in fab manufacturing atleast in screens and all
Their critical equipment manufacturing is competing western nation
I don't think currently we should say something about their growth if we see our condition of manufacturing no chips no fabs many other even basic manufacturing are have to be done
Atleast they have credible solar panels manufacturing capability
I won't post further if u write something and importantly I am definitely not knowledgeable like you
U have more knowledge and education than me and I have to learn many things so I may have spoken something wrong
Writing further may lead to my ban
Except we don’t know anything about their tech other than it is generally still behind the leading tech nations of the world. We have not seen it in action in international exercises, have not been deployed by any nation in a war, not proven that it is something India cannot match by getting the tech from our developed partners or developing in-house at some point in time, etc. There are some very critical tech they are working on so they don’t have to rely on the rest of the world for those. The question is do those tech affect our national security? Let’s say they develop the latest gen wafer technology-does that affect our defense equipment development which mostly require simpler chips. Despite all the boasts, Chinese space tech is behind SpaceX now. And they are still reliant on Americans for a lot of tech. Notice what happened to huawei after the Americans turned off access to their chip making tech. Huawei pretty much collapsed. Let them actually prove that they have the tech. It is one thing to write propaganda articles and even research papers on the latest and greatest tech. It is another thing to become a world leader in it. China is far away from being a world leader in any critical tech. And others are NOT sitting still. The US , Germany and Japan are significantly increasing their R&D spend to develop next gen tech. We are still too poor to play the big R&D game. But by 2025-2026 we can do so much more. Sab Bhagwan ki kripa hai. Kadham kadham badathe jha.
 

Hari Sud

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Except we don’t know anything about their tech other than it is generally still behind the leading tech nations of the world. We have not seen it in action in international exercises, have not been deployed by any nation in a war, not proven that it is something India cannot match by getting the tech from our developed partners or developing in-house at some point in time, etc. There are some very critical tech they are working on so they don’t have to rely on the rest of the world for those. The question is do those tech affect our national security? Let’s say they develop the latest gen wafer technology-does that affect our defense equipment development which mostly require simpler chips. Despite all the boasts, Chinese space tech is behind SpaceX now. And they are still reliant on Americans for a lot of tech. Notice what happened to huawei after the Americans turned off access to their chip making tech. Huawei pretty much collapsed. Let them actually prove that they have the tech. It is one thing to write propaganda articles and even research papers on the latest and greatest tech. It is another thing to become a world leader in it. China is far away from being a world leader in any critical tech. And others are NOT sitting still. The US , Germany and Japan are significantly increasing their R&D spend to develop next gen tech. We are still too poor to play the big R&D game. But by 2025-2026 we can do so much more. Sab Bhagwan ki kripa hai. Kadham kadham badathe jha.
You said the key word that is “getting tech from our developed partners”. It requires years of R&D or purchase but not steal like Chi**a. The gap could be bridged. Our exports have to catch to $500 to$800 in next few years to spend a lot of money in R&D.
 

Sanatani

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Do you live under a rock? What will an IITian or infact any engineering graduate do when there are almost no jobs in their specialized fields? India doesn't have much industries to employ all graduates in core disciplines, that's why most (including me) work in a different field than my subject.

India is not a dream land full of abundant jobs like you're thinking. So think hard before you call others "separate breed".
When a Chemical engineer gets a job both as a chemical engineer in a MNC and also as a finance analyst ,I feel he should always opt for the chemical engineer job because he /she has spent precious years of life in learning the subject.
I know about India very well and the availability of jobs too.
 

Sanatani

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Probably cause he studies the other subject in his free time and had interest in the other subject.
I am not very sure. A good number of his batchmates ,even in other streams opted for companies like Bain ,McKinsey and others.
 

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