India-China Border conflict

[Jimih]

i doubt this will be the case in few years . or maybe a decade .

they have made great stride in several areas.

u dont launch a space station or a moon rover with simple copy-paste. their moon rover is still operational - still fucking around on moon surface for some years now.

Sometimes you need to come out of Chinese "10 foot long dong syndrome".

Also @mist_consecutive wrote in this forum sometimes back that, "Chinese commie propaganda has muddled your thoughts."

This is not a China Appreciation thread.


They are stealers par excellence and there are lots and lots of confirmation about it, even from their best buddy Russia.

 

[Jimih]

Nothing in space station or moon is their own

i know they copy a lot of shit , but where did they copy the moon rover from ?

Direct from Uncle Sam himself

 

[mokoman]

Sometimes you need to come out of Chinese "10 foot long dong syndrome".

Also @mist_consecutive wrote in this forum sometimes back that, "Chinese commie propaganda has muddled your thoughts."

This is not a China Appreciation thread.


They are stealers par excellence and there are lots and lots of confirmation about it, even from their best buddy Russia.

yes plenty of propaganda , plenty of copy-paste .

but u cant simply ignore the things they have accomplished .

my posts were not 'appreciation' , its 'heads up'

u dont place 1 rover on mars , another on moon , a large space station using copy-paste . its because they have capabilities.

it should all be a wakeup call to our babus , but i doubt it will change anything .

 

[The Saffron Knight]

yes plenty of propaganda , plenty of copy-paste .

but u cant simply ignore the things they have accomplished .

u dont place 1 rover on mars , another on moon , a large space station using copy-paste . its because they have capabilities.

Appreciated. Everything original just like it should be.

 

[Jimih]

A lot of MSS agents getting pushed into India

2 Indian Soldiers missing in Arunachal Pradesh.

2 Chinese MSS agents caught red handed in Bihar.


India should not hastily return these agents without leveraging.

 

[another_armchair]

2 Indian Soldiers missing in Arunachal Pradesh.

2 Chinese MSS agents caught red handed in Bihar.


India should not hastily return these agents without leveraging.

Interesting thing is we went public and one of the chaps hands seem tied with a rope.

Some shit is definitely cooking beyond our northern borders.

 

[mokoman]

2 Indian Soldiers missing in Arunachal Pradesh.

2 Chinese MSS agents caught red handed in Bihar.


India should not hastily return these agents without leveraging.

according to army , most likely they fell into river .

seen posts about several deaths on Chinese side too , they call their border patrol route 'road of death' or something

 

[Kumaoni]

Recently, US study put IAF above Chinese airforce by a good margine. Now @ym888 can say that this ranking is wrong. Can anyone explain why China is ranked bellow India inspite of double the numbers of plane.

Since when was USA a reliable source on China? It’s like me using Chinese sources on America kek

 

[Kumaoni]

Their airforce's abilty is displayed in various excercises. Their poor performance was demonstrated in various UN missions where Chinese soldiers ran away. J11 was badly humiliated by saab gripen. Their soldiers cried when posted to face Indian army. They have a poor and humiliation histroy of loosing.

Yet we lost 20 soldiers to this supposedly weak army. Why isn’t there an inquiry into what went down at Galwan? How did they manage to ambush unarmed Indian soldiers so perfectly, and how did they plan this meticulously to outnumber our soldiers by at least 5:1?

 

[Angel of War]

Why isn’t there an inquiry into what went down at Galwan?

Even if they did start an inquiry you'll never know nor are you supposed to know . Such things are not disclosed in public.

 

[daya]

Yet we lost 20 soldiers to this supposedly weak army. Why isn’t there an inquiry into what went down at Galwan? How did they manage to ambush unarmed Indian soldiers so perfectly, and how did they plan this meticulously to outnumber our soldiers by at least 5:1?

There are some rumors also but ..... we will never know ...

 

[Knowitall]

There are some rumors also but ..... we will never know ...

What rumors?

 

[INDIAFIRST]

it should all be a wakeup call to our babus , but i doubt it will change anything .

Civil Babus... Military Babus... Civil Scientist... DRDO Scientist... Top IITIANS...all dream for an Americian Life...

 

[Sanatani]

Civil Babus... Military Babus... Civil Scientist... DRDO Scientist... Top IITIANS...all dream for an Americian Life...

Don't speak about IITians. They are a seperate breed whom I don't understand. My relative who is a Chemical engineer from IIT got a job in a big business advisory company. I don't understand what will a chemical engineer do in it. He spent 4 years in gaining knowledge about a subject, but is going in a field where it is not at all required.

 

[RoaringTigerHiddenDragon]

Many of your points are valid. But dude, don't underestimate the Chinese that much. They are conquering more verticals than we are. They already built a 40W, 4kHz Argon Flouride Laser.
Where do you think we stand in this vertical? Not even at the starting line yet. Its going to take a heck of a lot more than just time to catch up to the Chinese on all fronts.

Are you saying that because the Chinese built it, the Argon Flouride laser is the highest level in that technology?
Are you saying that ArF laser has been proven to be the highest level of laser tech and Chinese are doing it and that is a threat to our national security because you have to be at the highest level of each and every tech to have a deterrence?
Are you saying that the Chinese are able to master materials science and physics , the fundamental sciences behind laser technologies in a way we cannot?
What if India becomes the first to master single crystal blades because we focused on this area more than them, and China lags here but is ahead on ArF lasers? What is the total strategic position?

Germany was the first to engineer a whole lot of new weapons including the V2 rockets, U2 boats, blitzkrieg concept. Yet they finally got roasted. How is Chinese posturing different from WW2 Nazi Germany’s technology or even Soviet Union (first to space, largest nuke warheads, deadly missiles & SSBNs etc.) posturing? Mastering technology alone is not sufficient, if it is done only for defense purposes.

The thing is Chinese will focus on a list of strategic tech that they think will bring them battlefield supremacy especially in the Pacific where they will face their highest challenge from the US, Japan, and Australia. It is not necessary that India focuses on the same list. Our border history, future goals, strategic location, vast Indian ocean control etc., require a different list of tech to be prioritized and achieved. That is why it doesn’t make sense to just blindly state Chinese have done this or that without understanding if that tech is relevant in our context.

 

[RoaringTigerHiddenDragon]

Correct me if i was wrong, 70% of Indian mobile phone market is owned by Indian local brands?
80% of India local solar energy equipment owned by Indian local brands?
75% of world civil drone market owned by a Indan brand named Dajiang Innovatives?

And 90% of Chinese equipment requires transistors and ICs to be imported from Japan, in fact close to $55billion with $25 billion of ICs alone. Japanese turn this pipe off and Chinese will have no ICs and micro assembles to make even a flip phone. There are several such fundamental components that China imports from Japan as China has not mastered any of these technologies. So, yeah, try harder. You are able to do large things at scale. This does not mean you have mastered technology at a fundamental level. India is already doing large things at scale and this will increase as India gets wealthier, which it certainly will.

China Imports from Japan of Electrical, electronic equipment - 2024 Data 2025 Forecast 1992-2023 Historical

China Imports from Japan of Electrical, electronic equipment was US$43.83 Billion during 2023, according to the United Nations COMTRADE database on international trade. China Imports from Japan of Electrical, electronic equipment - data, historical chart and statistics - was last updated on...

tradingeconomics.com

I am not going to answer questions on one-off technology. But Kaveri engine has gotten the basics of aircraft engine development right. WS15 is an unreliable reverse engineered copy of a RD93 series Russian engine. Even the Pakistanis did not want that on their feared fighter JunkFighter 17. Knowing China, it will probably end up selling the WS15 junk to failed countries like Nigeria and Myanmar just to show off. This is the thing with commies - most of it appears solid like their buildings. Scratch the surface and you find that the buildings have been built without rebars in the concrete so much so that they sway back and forth in the Shenzhen wind. China has definitely mastered rebarless concrete building tech and swaying buildings tech for sure. And in another damning evidence on Chinese capabilities, almost all modern buildings in China were designed and architected by the US, UK, German architecture firms, including the Olympics stadiums. Lol.
The thieving Houston consulate of China has been shut down. Huawei backdoors have been shut down. Fraud Chinese and Chinese funded western professors in western universities have been kicked out. Confucius spying institutes have been uprooted. Since then, IP development in China has slowed down considerably with very little progress on advanced technologies that China hoped to have by 2025. The age of stealing IP to get to top level tech is over for the CCP. And that is why all kinds of boasting and aggression from the CCP. As they say, empty vessels make more noise.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

Are you saying that because the Chinese built it, the Argon Flouride laser is the highest level in that technology?
Are you saying that ArF laser has been proven to be the highest level of laser tech and Chinese are doing it and that is a threat to our national security because you have to be at the highest level of each and every tech to have a deterrence?
Are you saying that the Chinese are able to master materials science and physics , the fundamental sciences behind laser technologies in a way we cannot?
What if India becomes the first to master single crystal blades because we focused on this area more than them, and China lags here but is ahead on ArF lasers? What is the total strategic position?

Germany was the first to engineer a whole lot of new weapons including the V2 rockets, U2 boats, blitzkrieg concept. Yet they finally got roasted. How is Chinese posturing different from WW2 Nazi Germany’s technology or even Soviet Union (first to space, largest nuke warheads, deadly missiles & SSBNs etc.) posturing? Mastering technology alone is not sufficient, if it is done only for defense purposes.

The thing is Chinese will focus on a list of strategic tech that they think will bring them battlefield supremacy especially in the Pacific where they will face their highest challenge from the US, Japan, and Australia. It is not necessary that India focuses on the same list. Our border history, future goals, strategic location, vast Indian ocean control etc., require a different list of tech to be prioritized and achieved. That is why it doesn’t make sense to just blindly state Chinese have done this or that without understanding if that tech is relevant in our context.

There is a J-20 flying with WS-15 engine, which has a TET that can't be achieved without single crystal blades. So no, its not as if we will master single crystal blades before the Chinese. Our engine that does use single crystal blade is not using our inhouse material (DMS series), instead, we are using American material CMSX-3 (still don't know the reason why).
.
As for ArF laser, I am not sure if you are aware, but its one of the key challenges in making a Deep UV lithography machine which is used for making microchips. Currently, only two entities on Earth have this technology, other than China. And that is not all, Chinese have already solved their photomask issues and are therefore, very close to achieving an end-end capability of making most mature node chips within China, making them immune to American efforts of stopping ASML machines from being sold to the Chinese.
.
These are two strategically important verticals and in both, Chinese are close to realizing their goal while we are yet to start. In engines we have started, but still far away from where the Chinese are already.
.
Are you trying to tell me that the ability to make chips and jet engines in-house is "not relevant in our context"?
.
And no, Chinese are not just investing in military tech alone. Their R&D sector as a whole is ahead of ours based on the number of papers of particular quality as well as the level of integration their industry and academia have with each other. I will agree that military tech alone will not win you a war, the men, military organization, logistics, etc all have an equally important part to play. But my qualm is with people's tendency to underestimate the Chinese. They are looking to compete with USA. We are trying to hit a moving target. First try and understand how insanely proficient American R&D sector is and how stellar their industry-academia-military cooperation is. Then look at where the Chinese R&D sector is in trying to match that, and then finally compare that with where we are, with our reluctance to R&D especially in private sector. This is obviously related to the levels of economic development where China has a headstart, but that is no reason to look down on the Chinese or believe that we'll automatically be in the same position when we reach that level of economic development.

 

[RoaringTigerHiddenDragon]

yes plenty of propaganda , plenty of copy-paste .

but u cant simply ignore the things they have accomplished .

my posts were not 'appreciation' , its 'heads up'

u dont place 1 rover on mars , another on moon , a large space station using copy-paste . its because they have capabilities.

it should all be a wakeup call to our babus , but i doubt it will change anything .

When you have blueprints, 60-70% of the R&D is already over. You have the exact engineering specs need to build and launch a rover. Can you point to a stream of patents filed by Chinese for the various components of the rovers like a normally evolving R&D process will? Nopes. What China brings to the table is scale and relatively cheaper costs to execute large projects. They may have matched the previous generation of tech. But this stolen IP approach will not deliver them next Gen technology as they never built up a solid R&D base and ecosystem. For instance, Japanese maglev tech is now ice again the cutting edge tech of the world. The Chinese tried to match but failed. And you can bet that Japan will no,longer ToT advanced tech or even let Chinese researchers anywhere near their R&D facilities.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

And 90% of Chinese equipment requires transistors and ICs to be imported from Japan, in fact close to $55billion with $25 billion of ICs alone. Japanese turn this pipe off and Chinese will have no ICs and micro assembles to make even a flip phone. There are several such fundamental components that China imports from Japan as China has not mastered any of these technologies. So, yeah, try harder. You are able to do large things at scale. This does not mean you have mastered technology at a fundamental level. India is already doing large things at scale and this will increase as India gets wealthier, which it certainly will.

China Imports from Japan of Electrical, electronic equipment - 2024 Data 2025 Forecast 1992-2023 Historical

China Imports from Japan of Electrical, electronic equipment was US$43.83 Billion during 2023, according to the United Nations COMTRADE database on international trade. China Imports from Japan of Electrical, electronic equipment - data, historical chart and statistics - was last updated on...

tradingeconomics.com

I am not going to answer questions on one-off technology. But Kaveri engine has gotten the basics of aircraft engine development right. WS15 is an unreliable reverse engineered copy of a RD93 series Russian engine. Even the Pakistanis did not want that on their feared fighter JunkFighter 17. Knowing China, it will probably end up selling the WS15 junk to failed countries like Nigeria and Myanmar just to show off. This is the thing with commies - most of it appears solid like their buildings. Scratch the surface and you find that the buildings have been built without rebars in the concrete so much so that they sway back and forth in the Shenzhen wind. China has definitely mastered rebarless concrete building tech and swaying buildings tech for sure. And in another damning evidence on Chinese capabilities, almost all modern buildings in China were designed and architected by the US, UK, German architecture firms, including the Olympics stadiums. Lol.
The thieving Houston consulate of China has been shut down. Huawei backdoors have been shut down. Fraud Chinese and Chinese funded western professors in western universities have been kicked out. Confucius spying institutes have been uprooted. Since then, IP development in China has slowed down considerably with very little progress on advanced technologies that China hoped to have by 2025. The age of stealing IP to get to top level tech is over for the CCP. And that is why all kinds of boasting and aggression from the CCP. As they say, empty vessels make more noise.

Stop please. WS-15 and WS-13 are different. Would be pretty hilarious if someone tried slamming a WS-15 in a JF-17. It would become a crime scene.
.
As for your rant on ICs being imported from outside China, your claim that "China hasn't mastered this tech" is patently false. What do you think I was talking about when I said ArF laser? They are targeting mastering 28nm node end-end within China, which will happen by 2025 at least. And their research for higher nodes is running parallel to this.
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Just so you know, the only fab in India currently is SCL of ISRO, which can make 180 nm node chips. Chinese can actually build machines that can build 90 nm node chips right now. See that? We can build the chips, and they build the machines to build chips denser than ours. The difference is ridiculously large, obviously because our government's thrust was not in this area. But its still a far cry from your delusions that China is only relying on stolen IPs and are not that far ahead when compared to India.

We really need to read more and talk less when it comes to the Chinese.

 

[RoaringTigerHiddenDragon]

There is a J-20 flying with WS-15 engine, which has a TET that can't be achieved without single crystal blades. So no, its not as if we will master single crystal blades before the Chinese. Our engine that does use single crystal blade is not using our inhouse material (DMS series), instead, we are using American material CMSX-3 (still don't know the reason why).
.
As for ArF laser, I am not sure if you are aware, but its one of the key challenges in making a Deep UV lithography machine which is used for making microchips. Currently, only two entities on Earth have this technology, other than China. And that is not all, Chinese have already solved their photomask issues and are therefore, very close to achieving an end-end capability of making most mature node chips within China, making them immune to American efforts of stopping ASML machines from being sold to the Chinese.
.
These are two strategically important verticals and in both, Chinese are close to realizing their goal while we are yet to start. In engines we have started, but still far away from where the Chinese are already.
.
Are you trying to tell me that the ability to make chips and jet engines in-house is "not relevant in our context"?
.
And no, Chinese are not just investing in military tech alone. Their R&D sector as a whole is ahead of ours based on the number of papers of particular quality as well as the level of integration their industry and academia have with each other. I will agree that military tech alone will not win you a war, the men, military organization, logistics, etc all have an equally important part to play. But my qualm is with people's tendency to underestimate the Chinese. They are looking to compete with USA. We are trying to hit a moving target. First try and understand how insanely proficient American R&D sector is and how stellar their industry-academia-military cooperation is. Then look at where the Chinese R&D sector is in trying to match that, and then finally compare that with where we are, with our reluctance to R&D especially in private sector. This is obviously related to the levels of economic development where China has a headstart, but that is no reason to look down on the Chinese or believe that we'll automatically be in the same position when we reach that level of economic development.

WS15 is an unproven, unreliable engine. And there is no confirmation or proof that Chinese have mastered scb tech for highly durable, long life engines. At best it is a notch below Klimov RD series engines. The point I am making is not that Chinese are not ahead of us in R&D and industry-academia collaborations but a lot of their technology does not necessarily pose a national security threat to us. Plus it is not a given that Chinese are ahead of India in every single infrastructure. For example, India now has the world’s largest synchronous, single frequency power grid. You can look up for yourselves the advantages of a single frequency, integrated power grid. China does not. So Indian engineers are able to achieve cutting edge infrastructure at scale. But India is not in a position to spend at the level of China in general R&D; That day will come. But India has an advantage - the west trusts India with its top tech defense manufacturing, which may not allow india to get its hands on that fire walled technology but it will give rise to an ecosystem of thousands of Indian aerospace and defense engineers well trained in top engineering standards. These people will then go and build their own tech and that’s really when our tech will take off. That is why I keep saying privatizing defense and aerospace initiatives by GoI is a huge step to achieve pole position in a variety of technologies.
If Chinese are developing tech to advance themselves in civilian areas with no military threats to us, we should not be bothered to match all their civilian tech. Let’s say if they are able to master and deploy 6G tech, we should not focus on that but rather be known for operating the largest digital payment interface in the world even if on 4G or 5G tech. Despite everything India is still able to design and deploy its own 700MW Fastbreeder reactors and has been able to develop critical technology like cryogenic engines, futuristic rocket fuels, advanced radars, miniaturized nuke reactors, several advanced industrial systems like boilers, turbines, generators, transformers, advanced components for missiles etc. And is able to proceed even if slowly on mastering ultra critical tech like SCB, 5G, vaccines, air breathing tech, antiSAT weapons, Space based Quantum Key technology etc. With more money and experience we will certainly do more. If Indians can build a company like Skyroot Aerospace with several original tech in quick time, we can do so in a variety of other areas.