HAL HJT-36 Sitara

[Twinblade]

Re: HJT 36 Project a complete failure

You know the thing about getting foreign consultants.

First the client in this case HAL will never share all the data with.

Second the brass working originally on the project will never co-operate 100% with the outside consultants.

And lastly the client will expect to get a 100% solution on the table the minute the agreement is signed.

If you do not get the consultants from day one you will have this situation. Let us admit it as of date we do not have 100% of the expertise. It will come but we need to accept that and not devote our time in re inventing the wheel.

And lastly if a project is going to take a decade or more than the specs are going to change agains and again. You cannot blame the client of being choosy. Gone are the days when the customer had to buy whatever was on offer.

Also, there is only so much fixing that can be done to an existing design. Putting lipstick on a pig doesn't make it beautiful.

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: HJT 36 Project a complete failure

You know the thing about getting foreign consultants.

First the client in this case HAL will never share all the data with.

Second the brass working originally on the project will never co-operate 100% with the outside consultants.

And lastly the client will expect to get a 100% solution on the table the minute the agreement is signed.

If you do not get the consultants from day one you will have this situation. Let us admit it as of date we do not have 100% of the expertise. It will come but we need to accept that and not devote our time in re inventing the wheel.

And lastly if a project is going to take a decade or more than the specs are going to change agains and again. You cannot blame the client of being choosy. Gone are the days when the customer had to buy whatever was on offer.

the client should also know to stagger their increasing demands in the next tranche and let the original project continue to develop so that an end product that is usable comes out of it.

If you change the engine spec midway with different intake, space and thrust figures , there is no way it can be fit in to the original design.
Is this spec creep reserved for local products only?

Every product in the world is upgraded in batches at regular time interval. Why cant IAF accept Sitara with lazerac engines first in limited numbers and ask them to develop a newer AL based one , after a time interval that will give HAL enough time to go for a new design?

How come buy IAF buy decades old hawk as it is, while change the ASR every now and then for local products upsetting their developmental shedule?
And then how come IAF goes to open market to buy a product that is entirely different from the original specs they have given earlier to HAL or DRDO?

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: HJT 36 Project a complete failure

Also, there is only so much fixing that can be done to an existing design. Putting lipstick on a pig doesn't make it beautiful.

But then IAF goes to international market and finds a pig that has no relation to the original pig they specified to HAL or DRDO and buys it putting a lipstick on those MNC pigs.It is pretty much routine. Ask for a higher powered engine mid way in IJT Sitara. when it fails go to the market and buy a product that has lower powered engine than the one prescribed to the local DRDO and HAL divisions.

But when it comes to hawk they can buy a product that is decades old. Or when it comes to jaguar they are very content to upgrade it by spending billions more even after their makers have retired it. SO why can't IAF apply the tranches method here?Say OK HAL guys give the IJT with Lazerac engine first, then develop this higher powered version in the next tranche.

 

[Pulkit]

Re: HJT 36 Project a complete failure

Policy of our defense forces is if they want 'X' they will give requirement of 'Y' .... Even or DRDO ADA are also very smart ... On the requirement of 'Y' they will develope 'Z'.... Everyone gets kick backs all foreign goods which doesnot meet any of these X Y Z requirements will be bought saying what we asked is now not required what we are buying is what was needed.... during the course of time world has moved ahead so shud we so lets more more foreign goods....

All Win...
Defense forces get there Fav Foreign Toys..
DRDO gets to remain ideal No Work only pay...
Politicians are happy as they never need to take responsibility...
Foreign Lobbies are happy they are getting Paid + they are making profits and getting all the benefits...

Sorry forgot Kick backs ....

And we tax payers keep paying more and more taxes and can't even question them in the name of National Security.....

I wish we could file RTI or PIL in the issues related to defense.....

the client should also know to stagger their increasing demands in the next tranche and let the original project continue to develop so that an end product that is usable comes out of it.

If you change the engine spec midway with different intake, space and thrust figures , there is no way it can be fit in to the original design.
Is this spec creep reserved for local products only?

Every product in the world is upgraded in batches at regular time interval. Why cant IAF accept Sitara with lazerac engines first in limited numbers and ask them to develop a newer AL based one , after a time interval that will give HAL enough time to go for a new design?

How come buy IAF buy decades old hawk as it is, while change the ASR every now and then for local products upsetting their developmental shedule?
And then how come IAF goes to open market to buy a product that is entirely different from the original specs they have given earlier to HAL or DRDO?

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: HJT 36 Project a complete failure

DRDO plans to set up R&D centres in universities | idrw.org

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: HJT 36 Project a complete failure

Policy of our defense forces is if they want 'X' they will give requirement of 'Y' .... Even or DRDO ADA are also very smart ... On the requirement of 'Y' they will develope 'Z'.... Everyone gets kick backs all foreign goods which doesnot meet any of these X Y Z requirements will be bought saying what we asked is now not required what we are buying is what was needed.... during the course of time world has moved ahead so shud we so lets more more foreign goods....

All Win...
Defense forces get there Fav Foreign Toys..
DRDO gets to remain ideal No Work only pay...
Politicians are happy as they never need to take responsibility...
Foreign Lobbies are happy they are getting Paid + they are making profits and getting all the benefits...

Sorry forgot Kick backs ....

And we tax payers keep paying more and more taxes and can't even question them in the name of National Security.....

I wish we could file RTI or PIL in the issues related to defense.....

IJT Sitara is not an ADA or DRDO project. It was HAL's .
According to some reports the ADA was contacted first by IAF for this project and they wisely declined knowing the future!!!!

 

[Ray]

Re: HJT 36 Project a complete failure

the client should also know to stagger their increasing demands in the next tranche and let the original project continue to develop so that an end product that is usable comes out of it.

Would that not be risky?

Given the attitude of people like Antony that has brought the Defence Forces to the Stone age levels, what is there is a war forced on India?

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: HJT 36 Project a complete failure

Would that not be risky?

Given the attitude of people like Antony that has brought the Defence Forces to the Stone age levels, what is there is a war forced on India?

Sir , it is a trainer only whose specs were issued by IAF originally, and now we have AJT Hawk as well to cater for advance training. So why increase the engine power requiremnet mid way?

generally if design requirements are changed midway in a development project the product is doomed or sub optimal.


F-16 was inducted with deep stall issues and then later upgraded.Even J-10 is being upgraded in blocks.

IJT Sitara was going well till the engine change requirement came from IAf for a more powerful engine.Logically they should have accepted first 20 or 30 prototypes to validate the design and then asked for a redevelopment. If IJT floundered then we can rightly call it a design failure.

For example if we ask Dassault to give a more powerful engine now , will they be able to deliver as per their original time lines?

http://idrw.org/?p=41621#more-41621

Ongoing Tussle between Indian Air force and India's Biggest Public sector aeronautical company Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) was well known fact but IAF now has taken serious steps to, not depend on HAL and other DRDO labs for Maintenance and overhauling of its fighter aircrafts .

IAF which boost of 14 base repair depots (BRDs) under the maintenance command that presently carry out various levels of repairs and overhaul, but still depended on HAL and other PSUs for AMC and overhauling of its fighter aircrafts , IAF over the years has not been happy with the quality of work carried out by Government PSUs and now has decided, in phase manner to carry out most of the Maintenance and repairs in house .

Tussle has been growing since the time when , IAF wanted HAL to licence-build Pilatus PC-7 Mk II Basic Trainer Aircraft (BTA) for IAF , but HAL turned downed the offer and instead offered Hindustan Turbo Trainer-40 aircraft currently under development with HAL . Furius IAF At first mooted the idea of assembling Pilatus PC-7 Mk II in its base repair depots (BRDs) , but after feedback from maintenance command it asked Pilatus company to search for an Indian partner to assemble aircraft locally but that too could not take place since no Indian Private company was interested in Kit assembly of the aircrafts which had minimum returns for them , since then a Cold war between HAL and IAF has been growing .

Also this is the problem that why no indian private industry will step in for tejas or any other local product, low order sized no chance of profit, sudden requirement changes.

When IAF chief brownie first said that they can start assembling Pliatus from their base repair depot , he did not even know whether thay had the capacity or not, And
he even went on to say that the base Repair depots can produce a MMRCA winner like fighter in a decade!!!, Only to be immediatley rebutted by his another Airforce high ranking officer called kanaga raj(I am not sure about the name.).

They should take a closer to look at the viability and feasibility of product development plan.

TATAs are doing heli body panels for Sirkorsky, only because they see a stable production possibility.

IAF in a phase manner wants to snap ties with Government PSU's on Maintenance and overhauling of its aircrafts , but it will not be easy for IAF to completely snap ties with Government PSU's due to many technical reasons. Indian air force (IAF) also recently has Issued RFI For Intermediate Jet Trainers , after intermediate jet trainer, designated HJT-36 in development for past 14 years under HAL failed to clear IOC for last few years .

But if they go about like this then it is all over for local equipment ,

 

[hitesh]

Re: HJT 36 Project a complete failure

Koi nahi Hal ab sidha Rafael fighter jets bnayega

 

[maomao]

Re: HJT 36 Project a complete failure

Has Sitara Project been scrapped completely? If not, it's again media's spin doctors working on behalf of middlemen and foreign companies on the same lines that we we had seen in the case of Tejas!

 

[Zebra]

Re: HJT 36 Project a complete failure

What is the empty weight of this aircraft?

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: HJT 36 Project a complete failure

Has Sitara Project been scrapped completely? If not, it's again media's spin doctors working on behalf of middlemen and foreign companies on the same lines that we we had seen in the case of Tejas!

talking about media middle man,

MODI government's 132000 crore headache-by pranay sharma,-OUTLOOK

The article is a clever attempt to obfuscate the real issues around the rafale deal.

To start with the blurb goes like"India's search for 5th gen fighter jet is on the cusp.". It confirmed my long held suspicion these so called defence features are cone by people who have no understanding of the matters regarding the stuff they write.

Simply put rafale is 5th gen only in price, by technology it is 4.5th gen like tejas .Without even knowing that journos write whatever they wish , and give the article the color they want to give.

The journo says the non completion of rafale deal is the reason for the depleting squadron strength!!! He does not seem to know that rafale is going to perpetuate the lower squadron numbers of IAF with huge cost it takes to buy the 126 planes for a long time to come.

Another interesting snippet was,"Initially it was thought that Mirage-200o must be upgraded,But later that idea was junked and search began for a newer better combat jet". Well some one forgot to tell the journo that the mirage-2000 upgrade was not junked but it is being pursued at a huge cost of 45 million dollar per plane.

"Since the indian economy was booming ,the politcal bosses had told the IAF top brass to go for the best and not to worry about the cost"------Does that mean buying a 4.5th gen fighter at a 5th gen cost at 5th gen time frame? SO does all the reasoning that IAF needed an MMRCA that should weigh below 30 ton , which was the governing principle behind MMRCA tender as peddled by various worthies of IAF in stratpost conference not correct?

is this the reason for buying rafale not worrying about the cost!!!!

At least the journo got one quote right, each rafale costs 200 million and above a quote by Rahul Bedi defence analyst. Then all the guys who are lying here hoping up and down , when bhrath karnard said that each aircraft will cost upwards 238 million dollars as offered to brazil can calm down for a while.SO4.5 the gen rafale is going to cost more than 5th gen FGFA it seems,

And a jump cut by K.C .pant has the following quote,

"other than SU-30 MKIs procured in 1990s the IAF's squadrons have a shrinking strength due to depleting core of Mig-21 "

The number of Sukhois procured is not just one or two but 272 in total. So it is not as if no new fighter was procured through out the 2000-2010 period. Every year a fixed number of SU-30 MKis are rolling out from HAL lines. SO if depleting squadron strength is the issue , then more SU-30 MKI numbers and tejas mk1, mk2 numbers automatically settle the issue.

On the contrary rafale is going to contribute to the shrinking squadron strength by concentrating more than 22 billion dollars in just 6 squadrons. With 22 billion dollars we can raise more than 12 squadrons of SU-30 MKI whose entire production is indigenized(even SCB tech for AL-31 engine is in our hands according to our resident expert here!!!!) Then why should we do the exact opposite if we have to arrest the shrinking squadron strength?Or we can add more than 30 squadrons of Tejas for the price of 6 rafale squadrons a sure fire recipie to double the IAF squadron strength with a fighter whose radar is bigger than rafale.

And then comes the parting shot"With cost over runs and delays reports indicate that IAf's unhappiness with performance /technical features of PAKFA ". SO now IAF rates PAKFA over rafale, even Karlo Kopp would faint at such radical airpower analysis!!!!

Is PAKFA really that bad? Worse than rafale as per IAF?

Well I suspected something cooking when earlier reports indicating the supposed shortfalls of FGFA or PAKFA was aired very vigorously some times back. Now it sems it is all the work of MMRCA lobbies is sure .

Well this is the shortest cover story I have ever read. It had no features about the competing fighters ability or whether local alternatives are good enough. Just a few big photos of rafales and "expert opinion" favorably pitched does the job.

Well I never thought that OUTLOOK could throw much on a product chosen by UPA joint. So I was surprised to read the headline at the news stand and bought the book. After reading it I felt perfectly satisfied that OUTLOOK is still the best sickular UPA official publication.

The article is an artful dodge sen ofetn in the world cup foot ball, nothing about educating the readers on the real issues involved as usual , so typical of our sickular press.

In all the din the real issue that rafale is eating into tejas squadron share is clearly papered over.

 

[sob]

Re: HJT 36 Project a complete failure

Would that not be risky?

Given the attitude of people like Antony that has brought the Defence Forces to the Stone age levels, what is there is a war forced on India?

sir, the problem is that HAL does not have a successful product portfolio to impress that brass at IAF. It is also a known fact that at the regular meetings HAL demands to be treated as a Holy Cow and not be answerable to the ultimate customer.

HAL has very deep pockets, ideally they should make the IJT on their own looking at the specs of comparative trainers around the world and then call the IAF to try it out. With the time frame of development from HAL the specs are bound to change and why should IAF accept half baked cookies when they can get from other sources.

We just cannot be jingoistic and try to peddle products which has yet to show it's mettle. It is fine that on paper it may be a world class product, then we know that specs are not everything.

A Merc with 2000 CC engine and a Mahindra Jeep with 2000 CC engine cannot be compared. Only on paper they are similar.

 

[Pulkit]

Re: HJT 36 Project a complete failure

I just presented a general view and approach... it is applicable to one and all.....
When you say they knew its future then they should have stopped it and could have presented better option.....

IJT Sitara is not an ADA or DRDO project. It was HAL's .
According to some reports the ADA was contacted first by IAF for this project and they wisely declined knowing the future!!!!

 

[Pulkit]

Re: HJT 36 Project a complete failure

sir, the problem is that HAL does not have a successful product portfolio to impress that brass at IAF. It is also a known fact that at the regular meetings HAL demands to be treated as a Holy Cow and not be answerable to the ultimate customer.

HAL has very deep pockets, ideally they should make the IJT on their own looking at the specs of comparative trainers around the world and then call the IAF to try it out. With the time frame of development from HAL the specs are bound to change and why should IAF accept half baked cookies when they can get from other sources.

We just cannot be jingoistic and try to peddle products which has yet to show it's mettle. It is fine that on paper it may be a world class product, then we know that specs are not everything.

A Merc with 2000 CC engine and a Mahindra Jeep with 2000 CC engine cannot be compared. Only on paper they are similar.

I might agree on the view regarding HAL you have but there is a small disagreement also...

On paper its perfect but for performance you need to try and test it... Give it a chance...


With getting to know the ability of the product one should not set up the mind regarding the product.... every product matures and grows with time and learning while usingit only.... one cannot make picture perfect product everytime.... Every product needs backing and support...

With the aproach you want to judge a product you will never be able to induct a new product which can be new to us not to the world....


I do agree we can't just force half baked products but by your approach they will never mature and we will never get our own product....

 

[Eastman]

Re: HJT 36 Project a complete failure

It the aircraft have a basic aerodynamic flaw then why it took so long to realise it?

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: HJT 36 Project a complete failure

sir, the problem is that HAL does not have a successful product portfolio to impress that brass at IAF. It is also a known fact that at the regular meetings HAL demands to be treated as a Holy Cow and not be answerable to the ultimate customer.

HAL has very deep pockets, ideally they should make the IJT on their own looking at the specs of comparative trainers around the world and then call the IAF to try it out. With the time frame of development from HAL the specs are bound to change and why should IAF accept half baked cookies when they can get from other sources.

We just cannot be jingoistic and try to peddle products which has yet to show it's mettle. It is fine that on paper it may be a world class product, then we know that specs are not everything.

A Merc with 2000 CC engine and a Mahindra Jeep with 2000 CC engine cannot be compared. Only on paper they are similar.

thats not he way HAL works,

It need MOD's sanction to start funding a project, and in turn MOD will ask IAF if there is any need. Only after IAF node it can start work.

HAL showed two models of pliatus like basic trainer , from 2000 to 2010 , but IAF showed no interest , and asked for a basic trainer only in 2009.

 

[Twinblade]

Re: HJT 36 Project a complete failure

I do agree we can't just force half baked products but by your approach they will never mature and we will never get our own product....

Stop being such a traitor. It's the IAF's fault because they love their phoren maal. Even though HAL has failed spectacularly to deliver a trainer 9 years after the decision to change the engine was taken, it is still IAFs fault. If IAF had been involved in the project, teaching HAL how to keep a plane from dropping from the skies, this wouldn't have happened. IAF should order large number of HJT-36 to support the domestic industry.

Tranche 1
IAF orders 50 HJT-36 in current configuration, the plane occasionaly makes human chutney-kebab out of pilots, but it's not as if IAF is out there defending the country. HAL cribs about low orders and not being able to recuperate costs due to low orders. Deliveries to begin June 2015 at 2 units per year till a planned date of 2050. HAL misses several deadlines on the way.

Tranche 2 (upgraded Sitara)
IAF Orders 150 HJT-36 in upgraded configuration, the plane has a major upgrade. Instead of outright killing the pilots it simply paralyses them, thus turning them into human vegetables. Everybody knows veggies >> Kebabs. Jingos scream murder and call IAF traitors for not wholeheartedly accepting the product despite the fact that it only killed a quarter of the pilots that attempted to fly it. HAL cribs about low orders and not being able to recuperate costs due to low orders. Deliveries to begin June 2060 at 5 units per year till a planned date of 2090. HAL misses several deadlines on the way.

Tranche 3 (Super-Sitara upgrade)
IAF orders 450 HJT-36 in super-sitara configuration, the plane now only takes away a few limbs and/or puts pilots in the hospitals for a few years. Jingos hail the ingenuity of indigenous design that only lead to a fifth of pilots trying to fly it to honourable discharge on medical grounds. Those men and women, Jingos will claim, were not fit to be in the IAF anyways. HAL cribs about low orders and not being able to recuperate costs due to low orders. Deliveries to begin June 2100 at 15 units per year till a planned date of 2130. HAL misses several deadlines on the way.

 

[pmaitra]

Threads merged.

@Twinblade, thanks for helping out.

 

[Pulkit]

Re: HJT 36 Project a complete failure

Am I defending HAL "NO" No body can...
Am I blaming IAF "NO"...
Am i Saying IAF should have taken things in there own hands "YES"..
Am i Saying IAF should have kept fighting "YES"...
Am I saying IAF is responsible for not taking all measure to address this issue"YES"
Am I Say HAL is a failed Organisation "YES"
AM i Saying IAF could have done more "YES"....

How am I being a traitor.... ?You are being a traitor by not even asking IAF to take reposnsibility....

And you better stop Quoting out of context...

"I might agree on the view regarding HAL you have but there is a small disagreement also...

On paper its perfect but for performance you need to try and test it... Give it a chance...


With getting to know the ability of the product one should not set up the mind regarding the product.... every product matures and grows with time and learning while usingit only.... one cannot make picture perfect product everytime.... Every product needs backing and support...

With the aproach you want to judge a product you will never be able to induct a new product which can be new to us not to the world....


I do agree we can't just force half baked products but by your approach they will never mature and we will never get our own product.... "

This is what I wrote ... Read it completely and you will understand it.... I have clearly said that the failed product should not be and cannot be forced on them... Didn't I say that you tell me,,,,,
It was about the general approach which @sob was trying to say....

Stop being So anti Indian Goods.... You have a mentality of nothing made by India is good....
I cannot and i am not even asking you to change that ....
But IAF knew all these years this is not gonna suceed (Its well known to all HAL is a failure) they could have ghad a plan B but they know that in last moment we can get our phoren maal (maal=money)...
I am not targeting any soldies I am targeting the highest most decision making elitite of all the concerned organisation who gets influenced by the lobbies...
It you can't see that I pity you....

Stop being such a traitor. It's the IAF's fault because they love their phoren maal. Even though HAL has failed spectacularly to deliver a trainer 9 years after the decision to change the engine was taken, it is still IAFs fault. If IAF had been involved in the project, teaching HAL how to keep a plane from dropping from the skies, this wouldn't have happened. IAF should order large number of HJT-36 to support the domestic industry.

Tranche 1
IAF orders 50 HJT-36 in current configuration, the plane occasionaly makes human chutney-kebab out of pilots, but it's not as if IAF is out there defending the country. HAL cribs about low orders and not being able to recuperate costs due to low orders. Deliveries to begin June 2015 at 2 units per year till a planned date of 2050. HAL misses several deadlines on the way.

Tranche 2 (upgraded Sitara)
IAF Orders 150 HJT-36 in upgraded configuration, the plane has a major upgrade. Instead of outright killing the pilots it simply paralyses them, thus turning them into human vegetables. Everybody knows veggies >> Kebabs. Jingos scream murder and call IAF traitors for not wholeheartedly accepting the product despite the fact that it only killed a quarter of the pilots that attempted to fly it. HAL cribs about low orders and not being able to recuperate costs due to low orders. Deliveries to begin June 2060 at 5 units per year till a planned date of 2090. HAL misses several deadlines on the way.

Tranche 3 (Super-Sitara upgrade)
IAF orders 450 HJT-36 in super-sitara configuration, the plane now only takes away a few limbs and/or puts pilots in the hospitals for a few years. Jingos hail the ingenuity of indigenous design that only lead to a fifth of pilots trying to fly it to honourable discharge on medical grounds. Those men and women, Jingos will claim, were not fit to be in the IAF anyways. HAL cribs about low orders and not being able to recuperate costs due to low orders. Deliveries to begin June 2100 at 15 units per year till a planned date of 2130. HAL misses several deadlines on the way.