HAL HJT-36 Sitara

[Twinblade]

Re: HJT 36 Project a complete failure

Am I defending HAL "NO" No body can...
Am I blaming IAF "NO"...
Am i Saying IAF should have taken things in there own hands "YES"..
Am i Saying IAF should have kept fighting "YES"...
Am I saying IAF is responsible for not taking all measure to address this issue"YES"
Am I Say HAL is a failed Organisation "YES"
AM i Saying IAF could have done more "YES"....

How am I being a traitor.... ?You are being a traitor by not even asking IAF to take reposnsibility....

And you better stop Quoting out of context...

This is what I wrote ... Read it completely and you will understand it....

Sarcasm detector failure detected.

Stop being So anti Indian Goods.... You have a mentality of nothing made by India is good....

I am not saying they aren't good. They are simply late beyond the excuses provided and their project management reeks of criminal incompetence. Go ahead and major Indian weapon system delivered on time and within specifications, other than strategic assets because their timelines aren't public. You won't be able to list more than 5.

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: HJT 36 Project a complete failure

Am I defending HAL "NO" No body can...
Am I blaming IAF "NO"...
Am i Saying IAF should have taken things in there own hands "YES"..
Am i Saying IAF should have kept fighting "YES"...
Am I saying IAF is responsible for not taking all measure to address this issue"YES"
Am I Say HAL is a failed Organisation "YES"
AM i Saying IAF could have done more "YES"....

How am I being a traitor.... ?You are being a traitor by not even asking IAF to take reposnsibility....

And you better stop Quoting out of context...

"I might agree on the view regarding HAL you have but there is a small disagreement also...

On paper its perfect but for performance you need to try and test it... Give it a chance...


With getting to know the ability of the product one should not set up the mind regarding the product.... every product matures and grows with time and learning while usingit only.... one cannot make picture perfect product everytime.... Every product needs backing and support...

With the aproach you want to judge a product you will never be able to induct a new product which can be new to us not to the world....


I do agree we can't just force half baked products but by your approach they will never mature and we will never get our own product.... "

This is what I wrote ... Read it completely and you will understand it.... I have clearly said that the failed product should not be and cannot be forced on them... Didn't I say that you tell me,,,,,
It was about the general approach which @sob was trying to say....

Stop being So anti Indian Goods.... You have a mentality of nothing made by India is good....
I cannot and i am not even asking you to change that ....
But IAF knew all these years this is not gonna suceed (Its well known to all HAL is a failure) they could have ghad a plan B but they know that in last moment we can get our phoren maal (maal=money)...
I am not targeting any soldies I am targeting the highest most decision making elitite of all the concerned organisation who gets influenced by the lobbies...
It you can't see that I pity you....

he has a fixed line of argument, dont argue with him,

According to him all the weapon systems in the world are developed by foreign manufacturers according to the hot , and humid conditions of India and delivered in perfect shape , accepting periodical Spec revision by Indian armed forces like,
crew fainting in desert heat T-90,
written off Sea King helicopters,
Mirage-2000 with nothing but a gun for 5 years in IAF,
decade long service of 40 SU-30s well below SU-30 MKI specification of IAF
Nav attack malfunctioning jaguar,

but it is DRDO and DRDO alone fails services every time, like Arjun whose GSQR was revised 4 times, better than T-90 , but idle production line.

Strategic missile component is always something special because spec revision by our armed services is not possible here, since it is out of their reach, and no foreign makers ready to supply them with slush money in numbered secret accounts abroad!!!!. SO please excuse the accidental good performance of strategic nuclear and missile division and everything else is crap.

What many in services hate most about DRDO is the preferred access it directly has to PM's office in the means of powerful SA to PM post through which ADA was formed to undertake the Tejas project. To this day many in airforce, HAL and import lobby loathe this influential access to PM's office through which it has at least delivered a workable stock 4.5th gen fighter in the form of tejas , eventhough late( even in that delay 4 years from 1989 to 1993 was due to absence of funding for TDs in FSED phase-1,3 years delay in fly by wire tech due to sanctions, and a few years more delay due to FSED phase-2 in 2004).

SO even if we take the thirty year time period from the date a name called LCA was officially mentioned in 1983 to 2013 when it got IOC-2 as 30 years, and deduce the 10 yer delays for which DRDO has responsibility as mentioned above we see a full 4.5th gen low clean config RCS,4 channel all digital fly by wire Relaxed static stability ,composite airframe with high TWR was and low wingloading was developed in twenty years and now in the hands of HAL with a brand new production line, despite the IAF not even putting a project management team in ADA till 2006 and asking for close to 250 design changes, all barring a dozen were complied with.

gripen, rafale and typhoon all similar 4.5th gn planes took more or less the same 20 year time to service.

These guys know this all. But trolling endlessly is a compulsive addiction for them, we can't cure it by debating with the gang.

It will end up as a huge waste of time.

 

[Pulkit]

Re: HJT 36 Project a complete failure

That is no sarcasm when you question such a thing....

Next time when I call you that I will see how you take it....

I cannot list any okay done.... you tell me what % of foreign projects met there deadlines declared in time... even with ample amount of experience and money.....

Now IAF is waking up they want to control HAL but I still do not know there motives and driving force...

Read No proposal to bring HAL under Indian Air Force’ | idrw.org


criminal incompetence sure on all organisation responsible .... DOne...

Sarcasm detector failure detected.



I am not saying they aren't good. They are simply late beyond the excuses provided and their project management reeks of criminal incompetence. Go ahead and major Indian weapon system delivered on time and within specifications, other than strategic assets because their timelines aren't public. You won't be able to list more than 5.

 

[Pulkit]

Re: HJT 36 Project a complete failure

I pity such mentality.... They tend to ignore all these factors when it comes to Phoran maal..... but when it is Indian 5 years delay is a delay too late ... Its obsolete...
I don't know how they plan wat is there vision....
An A/C designed by 2010 should be able to operate till 2040 but once its delayed by few years it becomes obsolete (who cares what the reasons are).... I doubt there intentions in it...

I agree to all your Arguments fro delay but we must agree HAL has done nothing good to help it... it has just fueled it....

ADA DRDO tried there best but even they are controlled or run by few who are influenced or can be influenced by foreign lobbies ,.... Apart from all these issues still we have a TEJAS MK1 IOC-2 Aircraft ... Funds lesser than Any foreign project of thsi kind Time line might have exceed but we had no previous exp and sanctions....

The only dissapointment I have is after this delay I expected atleast 80% made in India or atleast our own Engine .... but thats okay in next 5-10 years that will be resolved and 5 years is not a huge time span for such projects which they dont understand.....

he has a fixed line of argument, dont argue with him,

According to him all the weapon systems in the world are developed by foreign manufacturers according to the hot , and humid conditions of India and delivered in perfect shape , accepting periodical Spec revision by Indian armed forces like,
crew fainting in desert heat T-90,
written off Sea King helicopters,
Mirage-2000 with nothing but a gun for 5 years in IAF,
decade long service of 40 SU-30s well below SU-30 MKI specification of IAF
Nav attack malfunctioning jaguar,

but it is DRDO and DRDO alone fails services every time, like Arjun whose GSQR was revised 4 times, better than T-90 , but idle production line.

Strategic missile component is always something special because spec revision by our armed services is not possible here, since it is out of their reach, and no foreign makers ready to supply them with slush money in numbered secret accounts abroad!!!!. SO please excuse the accidental good performance of strategic nuclear and missile division and everything else is crap.

What many in services hate most about DRDO is the preferred access it directly has to PM's office in the means of powerful SA to PM post through which ADA was formed to undertake the Tejas project. To this day many in airforce, HAL and import lobby loathe this influential access to PM's office through which it has at least delivered a workable stock 4.5th gen fighter in the form of tejas , eventhough late( even in that delay 4 years from 1989 to 1993 was due to absence of funding for TDs in FSED phase-1,3 years delay in fly by wire tech due to sanctions, and a few years more delay due to FSED phase-2 in 2004).

SO even if we take the thirty year time period from the date a name called LCA was officially mentioned in 1983 to 2013 when it got IOC-2 as 30 years, and deduce the 10 yer delays for which DRDO has responsibility as mentioned above we see a full 4.5th gen low clean config RCS,4 channel all digital fly by wire Relaxed static stability ,composite airframe with high TWR was and low wingloading was developed in twenty years and now in the hands of HAL with a brand new production line, despite the IAF not even putting a project management team in ADA till 2006 and asking for close to 250 design changes, all barring a dozen were complied with.

gripen, rafale and typhoon all similar 4.5th gn planes took more or less the same 20 year time to service.

These guys know this all. But trolling endlessly is a compulsive addiction for them, we can't cure it by debating with the gang.

It will end up as a huge waste of time.

 

[p2prada]

Re: HJT 36 Project a complete failure

Stop being such a traitor. It's the IAF's fault because they love their phoren maal. Even though HAL has failed spectacularly to deliver a trainer 9 years after the decision to change the engine was taken, it is still IAFs fault. If IAF had been involved in the project, teaching HAL how to keep a plane from dropping from the skies, this wouldn't have happened. IAF should order large number of HJT-36 to support the domestic industry.

Tranche 1
IAF orders 50 HJT-36 in current configuration, the plane occasionaly makes human chutney-kebab out of pilots, but it's not as if IAF is out there defending the country. HAL cribs about low orders and not being able to recuperate costs due to low orders. Deliveries to begin June 2015 at 2 units per year till a planned date of 2050. HAL misses several deadlines on the way.

Tranche 2 (upgraded Sitara)
IAF Orders 150 HJT-36 in upgraded configuration, the plane has a major upgrade. Instead of outright killing the pilots it simply paralyses them, thus turning them into human vegetables. Everybody knows veggies >> Kebabs. Jingos scream murder and call IAF traitors for not wholeheartedly accepting the product despite the fact that it only killed a quarter of the pilots that attempted to fly it. HAL cribs about low orders and not being able to recuperate costs due to low orders. Deliveries to begin June 2060 at 5 units per year till a planned date of 2090. HAL misses several deadlines on the way.

Tranche 3 (Super-Sitara upgrade)
IAF orders 450 HJT-36 in super-sitara configuration, the plane now only takes away a few limbs and/or puts pilots in the hospitals for a few years. Jingos hail the ingenuity of indigenous design that only lead to a fifth of pilots trying to fly it to honourable discharge on medical grounds. Those men and women, Jingos will claim, were not fit to be in the IAF anyways. HAL cribs about low orders and not being able to recuperate costs due to low orders. Deliveries to begin June 2100 at 15 units per year till a planned date of 2130. HAL misses several deadlines on the way.

This ain't sarcasm, TB.

 

[p2prada]

Re: HJT 36 Project a complete failure

Would that not be risky?

Given the attitude of people like Antony that has brought the Defence Forces to the Stone age levels, what is there is a war forced on India?

They always forget the 200000 DRDO/OFB tank shells we had to destroy right after Op Parakram.

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: HJT 36 Project a complete failure

They always forget the 200000 DRDO/OFB tank shells we had to destroy right after Op Parakram.

You also forget the Invar duds Russians supplied to India.

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: HJT 36 Project a complete failure

Stop being such a traitor. It's the IAF's fault because they love their phoren maal. Even though HAL has failed spectacularly to deliver a trainer 9 years after the decision to change the engine was taken, it is still IAFs fault. If IAF had been involved in the project, teaching HAL how to keep a plane from dropping from the skies, this wouldn't have happened. IAF should order large number of HJT-36 to support the domestic industry.

Tranche 1
IAF orders 50 HJT-36 in current configuration, the plane occasionaly makes human chutney-kebab out of pilots, but it's not as if IAF is out there defending the country. HAL cribs about low orders and not being able to recuperate costs due to low orders. Deliveries to begin June 2015 at 2 units per year till a planned date of 2050. HAL misses several deadlines on the way.

Tranche 2 (upgraded Sitara)
IAF Orders 150 HJT-36 in upgraded configuration, the plane has a major upgrade. Instead of outright killing the pilots it simply paralyses them, thus turning them into human vegetables. Everybody knows veggies >> Kebabs. Jingos scream murder and call IAF traitors for not wholeheartedly accepting the product despite the fact that it only killed a quarter of the pilots that attempted to fly it. HAL cribs about low orders and not being able to recuperate costs due to low orders. Deliveries to begin June 2060 at 5 units per year till a planned date of 2090. HAL misses several deadlines on the way.

Tranche 3 (Super-Sitara upgrade)
IAF orders 450 HJT-36 in super-sitara configuration, the plane now only takes away a few limbs and/or puts pilots in the hospitals for a few years. Jingos hail the ingenuity of indigenous design that only lead to a fifth of pilots trying to fly it to honourable discharge on medical grounds. Those men and women, Jingos will claim, were not fit to be in the IAF anyways. HAL cribs about low orders and not being able to recuperate costs due to low orders. Deliveries to begin June 2100 at 15 units per year till a planned date of 2130. HAL misses several deadlines on the way.

Trolls like you should refer to the reason for IAF accidents in the following link,

http://profprodyutdas.blogspot.in/2013/12/the-aerodynamics-of-mig-21-accidents.html

Lying trolls like you should learn that there was no big increase in accidents as made out by you.

2. The accidents were evenly distributed between seniors and rookies. Of the100 cases of accidents where the pilot is identified by name we have 36 accidents where the pilots were Squadron Leaders and above and 24 were of the level of Flight Lieutenants. Only 40 of the accident cases were below these ranks and one could ascribe inadequate experience as a cause. To note however is that 60 % of the accidents, in a sample of 100, involved senior pilots.
3 Of the 164 losses between 1962-2004 that is recorded in the Warbird of India records the main categories were:
Cause Nos Lost
Mid Air Collisions 10
Bird Strikes 10
Take Off or Landing Phase 29
Combat Related 11
No details in Public Domain rest
The numbers may appear inadequate as a statistical sample. However one has seen or dealt with an infinite sample (so beloved of statisticians!) but in practice the laws work as well for a sample of 50 as for infinity! Even if we take the first three cases ( leaving the combat losses out) it is statistically reliable. It clearly shows that accidents where that low aspect ratio was a factor ( i.e TO & landing ) dominate with 29 cases out of 49 i.e greater than 60%.
Is the general accident level too high? According to the MOD the IAF lost a total of 315 MiG 21 were lost from all causes in 40 years. Taking out the combat losses this is less than 30% of the MiG fleet in 40 years. Compared to the Canadian losses of 50% and the German Losses of 292 out of 915 F104s in a much shorter period of operation and the fact the percentage of Lightning losses for the RAF were just as high would indicate that losses were not unusual.
The figures from Warbirds of India are likely to be incomplete, especially in the pre 90s figures. However there are some statements made by the MoD that might help us. Using the figures the Warbird's loss records can be modified as follows.
The loss as recorded in the Warbirds site:
Financial Year No of Aircraft Lost
92-93 6
93-94 10
94-95 6
95-96 4
96-97 5
97-98 7
98-99 10
99-00 13
00-01 12
01-02 8
02-03 11
03-04 5
04-05 2
The figures would indicate that the losses from 98 to 01 are "out of control" But if we modify the figures by using some figures later given by Mr. Pillarisetti (Source: the Warbird thread quoted by Mr. Pillarisetti http://www.warbirdsofindia.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=59&PN=1)

Looking at the revised figures we can say that the losses whilst regrettable do not reflect any sudden decrease in quality.

There are many press reports that said that the dip in 1997-98, where only 7 were lost could be because of ACM Sareen's measures of reduced flying efforts, which was the butt of much criticism. 01-02 drop also indicates some kind of "interference". The view was that the high value for 98-99 was due to Kargil which meant extra flying and the state or readiness thereafter.

The sudden decline of crash rate après 2003, is statistically speaking, "out of control" and indicates the presence of a new factor which powerfully reduced the trend.
The reason for the crash rate as also the sudden decline in recent times can only be conjectured. The popular press mentioned everything from inadequate training (which was probably not true) to spurious engine parts from ex- Soviet Republics to combustion cans losing their enameling. None of this can be verified.

According to Western rates the loss rates should have been around 5to 7 aircraft a year but one must remember that they do not have to contend with large birds and high runway temperatures. Pilot attitudes may play a major part in accidents. "Disciplining" pilots may reduce the accident rates but break the spirit of the fighter pilot which is counterproductive. Somehow the RAF manages to maintain a balance in an understated way and one expects the IAF has its own methods.

HJT-36 Intermediate Jet Trainer

The project was sanctioned in July 1999 with a grant of Rs 180 crore. The powerplant will be the Snecma Larzac 04-30 turbofan engine and the semi-glass cockpit will have French/British avionics with the pilot seated on a Zwezda K36CT ejection seat. Assembly of aircraft and integration of all systems is expected to be complete in 20 months. The rollout was planned for August 2002 and first flight in October 2002. The PT2 was to follow in six months and flight testing would total 4,500 hours leading to series production in 2004-05. The plan was to build 225 HJT36s.

HAL had pegged the overall project cost at Rs.200 crores and expected the prototype to roll out 39 months after it gets the go-ahead. The plane was to enter service two years thereafter. HAL engineers said that the project cost had been capped at Rs.18 crores.

HAL was looking for "off-the-shelf" equipment in order to save time and money. About 200 vendors have so far been identified. In June 2001 Smiths Aerospace and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) signed a contract for the design and development of the Integrated Avionics System for the HJT-36 Intermediate Jet Trainer. The system consists of an open systems architecture mission computer, head up display, HUD repeater, rear data entry panel, attitude and heading reference system and air data computers.

The IJT made it's maiden flight in March 2003, just 20 months after the project was actually taken up. But two back to back accidents in 2005 and 2007 air shows, and an engine change program sent the project into a tail spin.

The prototypes were initially fitted with the the French company Snecma's Larzac 04-30 turbofan engine. However, in 2005, Russia and India signed a pact to transfer technology to HAL to develop the AL-55I engine for the IJT. As per the agreement, India was issued a licence by NPO Saturn, a Russian aerospace firm, for making the AL-55I engines at its Koraphut complex in Orissa. The AL-55I will propel the subsequently produced IJTs. HAL estimated a demand for about 200 IJTs from the Indian Air Force (IAF) for training its fighter pilots.

HAL HJT-36 Sitara - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

he first and second prototypes of the HJT-36, labelled PT-1 and PT-2, flew on 7 March 2003 and in March 2004, respectively. The program was then delayed with the Air Force assessing the SNECMA Turbomeca Larzac engine, with 14.1 kN of thrust, as under-powered. In response, in August 2005, HAL reached a deal to replace the SNECMA engine with the NPO Saturn AL-55I with 16.9 kN of thrust. The deal also provided for license-production of the engine in India by HAL.[3]


Further delays were caused by delays in delivery of the NPO Saturn engine by 2 years, as well as due to two accidents in February 2007 and in February 2009 involving each of the prototypes, which grounded the aircraft for repairs and investigations.[4][5]

The first AL-55I engine was received from Russia on 28 December 2008, 2 years later than committed, and was installed on PT-1.[6] Following ground taxiing trials, flight tests with the new engine started on 9 May 200

Threads merged.

@Twinblade, thanks for helping out.

Engine itself has arrived almost on the fag end of 2008, almost 2009. Now it is 2014. Has nine years passed?
Where did this liar study his math?

@pmaitra
MODS: It's time to ban this habitual lying troll who uses the most provocative posting techniques to troll and flame bait threads with the sole intention of derailing all the threads with lewd comments like above .
Allowing people like him a free run in this forum will seriously hurt the credibility of the forum,

You should ask him to apologize for posting such serial lies to dump on all DRDO products everytime.

 

[Pulkit]

Re: HJT 36 Project a complete failure

You only asked me not to waste my time on them..... relax.....

Trolls like you should refer to the reason for IAF accidents in the following link,

Prof. Prodyut Das: The Aerodynamics of the MiG 21 Accidents

Lying trolls like you should learn that there was no big increase in accidents as made out by you.



HJT-36 Intermediate Jet Trainer


HAL HJT-36 Sitara - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia







Engine itself has arrived almost on the fag end of 2008, almost 2009. Now it is 2014. Has nine years passed?
Where did this liar study his math?

@pmaitra
MODS: It's time to ban this habitual lying troll who uses the most provocative posting techniques to troll and flame bait threads with the sole intention of derailing all the threads with lewd comments like above .
Allowing people like him a free run in this forum will seriously hurt the credibility of the forum,

You should ask him to apologize for posting such serial lies to dump on all DRDO products everytime.

 

[pmaitra]

Re: HJT 36 Project a complete failure

Stop being such a traitor.

May I ask you who gave you the authority to call others traitors?

I request you to avoid this incessant flame-baiting. Keep it civil.

 

[Twinblade]

Re: HJT 36 Project a complete failure

May I ask you who gave you the authority to call others traitors?

I request you to avoid this incessant flame-baiting. Keep it civil.

The post was missing a wink smiley , because there are some who call enlisted men traitors, or question their intentions when their equipment of choice isn't ordered.

 

[pmaitra]

Re: HJT 36 Project a complete failure

The post was missing a wink smiley , because there are some who call enlisted men traitors, or question their intentions when their equipment of choice isn't ordered.

Ok, whoever said that, please quote and counter him.

I think both the sides are engaging in ad hominem attacks (here, and in the Rafale, Big Mistake thread). Both sides should keep it cordial, even in disagreement.

 

[Pulkit]

Re: HJT 36 Project a complete failure

The post was missing a wink smiley , because there are some who call enlisted men traitors, or question their intentions when their equipment of choice isn't ordered.

Ok, whoever said that, please quote and counter him.

I think both the sides are engaging in ad hominem attacks (here, and in the Rafale, Big Mistake thread). Both sides should keep it cordial, even in disagreement.

That word was used for me .... and I do object to it being used for any body....
I have not called TILL NOW any thing of such kind....But some people who believe that they are expert or so called know it all kinds have been defaming alot of things and curbing alot of facts which have been highlighted by @ersakthivel in many of the posts....

Name calling calling fan boy or Arjun Tejas brigade is common..... but they have been misquoting alot of things and fact... kindly check those ....

@Twinblade We must try and keep the posts and discussion free from personal attacks ..... for fun sake is ok .... but not exceeding certain limits.....


I think i m gonna enter into one more ignore list....

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: HJT 36 Project a complete failure

Ok, whoever said that, please quote and counter him.

I think both the sides are engaging in ad hominem attacks (here, and in the Rafale, Big Mistake thread). Both sides should keep it cordial, even in disagreement.

He has no quotes, only lies,

Is it not fair for any concerned citizen to ask why IAF changed the IJT engine spec(knowing fully well that there is no reliable engine available in the international market that fits their spec, the russian engine that met their needs has very poor MBTO i.e engine life).

That too now IAF has Advanced jet trainer in the form of AJT. Then why such a change has happened midway through the program?

If IAF asked for Su-30 MKI sized ASEA radar and a thrust vectoring engine on rafale, in 2009 will french be able to deliver it next year?

Ask that lying troll to answer this.

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: HJT 36 Project a complete failure

That word was used for me .... and I do object to it being used for any body....
I have not called TILL NOW any thing of such kind....But some people who believe that they are expert or so called know it all kinds have been defaming a lot of things and curbing alot of facts which have been highlighted by @ersakthivel in many of the posts....

Name calling calling fan boy or Arjun Tejas brigade is common..... but they have been misquoting alot of things and fact... kindly check those ....

@Twinblade We must try and keep the posts and discussion free from personal attacks ..... for fun sake is ok .... but not exceeding certain limits.....


I think i m gonna enter into one more ignore list....

You still don't know @Twinblade 's purpose in this forum.

The link below quotes explicit reason for Mig-21 accidents,

Prof. Prodyut Das: The Aerodynamics of the MiG 21 Accidents.

The CK ejection seat which is good in high altitude while giving unparalled blast protection when ejecting at supersonic speed,

As the seat leaves the cockpit , the canopy hinged to the front of the windshield attaches to the top of the pilot's seat and rotates to cover the entire front of the pilot seat giving giving unparalled blast protection when ejecting at supersonic speeds at high altitude.

This safety feature delayed the ejection and takes a bit of time to get rid of the canopy after the pilot ejects out of the aircraft , this delays the parachute opening and this is the reason for its sub optimum performance in lower altitude and take off where enough time is not available for the pilot to open his parachute safely.

It has nothing to do with delay in tejas or IJT program. It was a Mig-21 design feature ( nothing to do with ageing of the aircraft as made out by few trolls here )as an extra guaranty to save the pilot in high altitude supersonic ejection , working against him inlow altitude due to the time it takes for the canopy top to separate from pilot's seat and hence the subsequent delay in parachute deployment , which adds up to the pilot not having enough time and altitude level to reach safety,



Also in mig-21 unless the pilot gets the angle of attack right he may see a very high increase of drag without the accompanying lift increase(because of high wing loading coupled with low aspect ratio wings ).

This leads to mig-21 hitting the ground before the landing area if a small error in AOA occurs due to high drag and low lift from high wing loading (less area ) wing.
this coupled with the safety feature design for high altitude super sonic ejection which delays canopy release to protect the pilot from the blast adds to the complications in low altitude and during take off or landing ejections.

These are the reasons for the pilot fatalities in low altitude Mig-21 accidents , all due to its design feature and nothing to do with delay in Tejas or IJT induction as these gang of trolls make it out to be,

In fact no Mig-21 that is not fit enough is allowed to fly. The serious safety audit on Mig-21 by HAL(which is hounded by these trolls endlessly) resulted in drastica reduction of Mig-21 accidents,

The ejection seat of the German luftwafe's F104 was even worse that the MiG 21 for low altitude flying. The Germans corrected that by switching over to the Martin Baker GQ 7 seat sometime in the mid sixties.



But Mr das still has a sting in the tail for tejas with his following comment

The LCA has an unusually low aspect ratio of 1.9. It will inevitably put on weight in mid life. Unless it has been tamed by the FBW software, the LCA , will be requiring much careful handling at low speed low level flight. It is also a single engine machine. Will it repeat the MiG experience? May be but the loss of life will be less as it has a very good ejection seat.

But the interesting thing is mr. Das as usual has missed out the most important point, tejas has one of the lowest wing loading of all fighter planes means it has bundles of lift and never crash like the high wing loading Mig-21 , which is also borne out by its stellar test flight records of close to 3000 landings and take offs with not even a single emergency. But it is quite natural of Mr. DAS to ignore this salient low wing loading feature of tejas which enables to meet IAF needs even in high altitude low lift leh airfield, where 4 of the 6 MMRCA contesters couldn't do it with meaningful loads with in the stipulated take off distance.

I have pointed out this troll many times, but he acts like he has never seen it.
@pmaitra
The following passage from Mr. Das

5 The importance of having the best ejection seat possible cannot be overstated. It is noteworthy that the Pakistan Air Force retrofitted their MiG 19s with the Martin Baker MK 10. Such a seat in the MiG 21would have saved many of the 70 pilots killed. Wg.Cdr Gautam, MVC and Bar who died "dead sticking" a MiG 21 FL during take off at Lohegaon is one name, of the many, who come to mind.

.
exposes trolls like
@Twinblade
@p2prada, who consistently blame the delays in Tejas for death of IAF pilots in accident


If these trolls have any concern for the life of IAF pilots getting killed in IJT phased induction they should ask this question to our IAF brass,"why you could not follow the pakistani example and fit Mig-21s with better ejection seat?"



If these trolls have any concern for the life of IAF pilots getting killed in IJT phased induction or tejas delays ,

then they should ask this question to our IAF brass,"why you could not follow the pakistani example and fit Mig-21s with better ejection seat?",

SInce our IAF ex chief brownie wanted to assemble pliatus from his Base repair Depot and famously claimed that "they can build a MMRCA winner type fighter from their Base Repair Depot within a decade?"

Sure fixing up an ejection seat problem is no big thing for the big daddies of IAF. Why didn't they do it?

And now the field is open for few trolls here to conclusively rebut this post with authentic links and settle the matter once for all.


It will be a refreshing change to the forum to know about these contentious issues rather than calling people who point out such things as traitors who suspect men in uniform, nationalistic tripe, dumbass, hackneyed tamilians, and what not,,,,,,,,

Guys who raise such valid point also care about the safety and effectiveness of our airforce, which seems to have been the wholesale interest of a few trolls here,

lets see whether our gang of resident trolls and technocrats are upto the challenge,
@Mad Indian,
please look forward to your guru's replies on this weighty matter.(I am sure it will never come!!!!)

 

[maomao]

Indian Journalism is know to be of the lowest standards with low intellect leftist / secular morons filling the ranks of all the media houses! Hence, we cannot expect any unbiased news from these ready to sell their mother for money type media crooks. These people with no knowledge of defense will write whatever crap they want to satisfy their employers (read: middle men and political masters)!

The breed of journos we have in India is the most lowly, shameless and secular / commie to the core - ready to sell anything in the garb of fake righteousness and anti-national high secular morals! Indian journalism is an apt example of Yellow Journalism!

 

[ersakthivel]

Indian Journalism is know to be of the lowest standards with low intellect leftist / secular morons filling the ranks of all the media houses! Hence, we cannot expect any unbiased news from these ready to sell their mother for money type media crooks. These people with no knowledge of defense will write whatever crap they want to satisfy their employers (read: middle men and political masters)!

The breed of journos we have in India is the most lowly, shameless and secular / commie to the core - ready to sell anything in the garb of fake righteousness and anti-national high secular morals! Indian journalism is an apt example of Yellow Journalism!

Raha, also Chairman of Chief of Staff Committee, said, Army is there, BSF (Border Security Fore) is there, the Air force is not directly involved, but things are not that bad. To a question, Raha said, "There is a lot of thrust being given on indigenous production of military hardware and I think this (Narendra Modi) government is also serious about pushing it further to take it to higher level."

Asked about delay in projects relating to indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft and Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT), Raha said, "...they are delayed slightly, but this happens in any indigenous production. First time we are doing it, there are many countries who have been at it for many many years..."

Declining to comment on whether any kind of replacement for IJT was being considered, he said "...We will get the IJT on time."

The IAF chief was here to inaugurate the 54th Annual Conference of Indian Society of Aerospace Medicine (ISAM). Addressing the conference, he emphasised the role of Aerospace Power in recent conflicts and brought out that it was the weapon of choice due to its reach, precision and speed of operations.

Pak ceasefire violations no cause for worry, we are prepared: IAF chief - IBNLive

but our Desi Dork Media guys have already issued cancellation fiat on IJT!!!!

Well , unlike a few self declared panting IAF fanboys here the present IAF chief is realistic

So unlike another set of IAF gents tearing into tejas for the delay in the vayu stratpost conference repeatedly caling it below Mig-21 bisons and asking for stopping the program,

 

[cobra commando]

[tweet]560438179845513216[/tweet]

 

[vram]

After reading the MSM news media I was really convinced that the Sitara would not take off. Is there anyway defamation cases can be filed on behalf of machine like Sitara? :taunt1:

 

[Abhi9]

About 1000 flights have been completed on IJT

HAL's 2013-14 annual report says that flight testing of the IJT to +7g and -2.5g has been completed: Saurav Jha