HariPrasad-1
New Member
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2016
- Messages
- 9,645
- Likes
- 21,138
HAL Tejas Mk1A VS Chengdu J10 A/B/C
By : Vipul Dave
Date: 11-01-2021
Article cannot be reproduced or Video cannot be made without credit to writer and and Indian defense forum.
Recently, Pakistan announced that Pakistan will buy J10 plane from China to counter India’s Rafale which India has acquired from France. As the current fleet of PAF plane is not good enough to counter Rafale, they have decided to buy J 10 to counter Rafale. Pakistan had tried to get F 16 but that effort failed. Now, the only option left with Pakistan is to go for Chinese fighters. JF 17 is clearly not good enough inspite of upgrading it to Block III standard and hence, the only option left is J 10.
In the same time frame, India too is going to get TEJAS MK1 A which is a light category of aircraft and upgraded variant of Tejas Mk1 with over 40 modifications. Much is been said and discussed about JF 17 VS Tejas MK1 because both the fighters are in light category and made to replenish the depleting numbers of fighter squadrons of rival countries India and Pakistan. Both the countries claim full confidence in their planes. Now when Tejas is evolving in MK1A avatar, JF 17 is upgraded to Block III version. Simultaneously, Pakistan is on a purchase spree to purchase 25 J 10 fighters which will face India’s Su30 MKI, Rafale, Mirage 2000 and possibly Tejas MK1A. The reason of comparing A medium weight fighter J 10 with a light category small fighter Tejas MK1 A is that they may face each other in India Pakistan conflict on India’s western border or even Indo China conflict on Indian’s northern border. Much is said and discussed about JF 17 VS Tejas Mk1, a comparison is very much due on public forum which is missing.
vs
Let us start with specification:
Tejas Mk1
• Crew: 1
• Payload: 4000 KG +
• Length: 13.20 m (43 ft 4 in)
• Wingspan: 8.20 m (26 ft 11 in)
• Height: 4.40 m (14 ft 9 in)
• Wing area: 38.4 m² (413 ft²)
• Empty weight: 6,560 kg (14,300 lb)
• Loaded weight: 9,800 kg (21,605 lb)
• Max. takeoff weight: 14300 KG (increased in New Specification from 13500 KG)
• Internal fuel capacity: 2,458 kg
• External fuel capacity: 2 x 1,200-litre drop tank inboard, 1 x 725-litre drop tank under fuselage
• Engine GE 404 IN 20 (54 KN Dry thrust, 85 KN Afterburner thrust)
Chengdu J 10
Specifications (J-10A)
• Crew: 1.
• Length: 16.03 m (52 ft 7 in)
• Wingspan: 9.25 m (30 ft 4 in)
• Height: 5.43 m (17 ft 10 in)
• Wing area: 33 m2 (360 sq ft)
• Empty weight: 9,750 kg (21,495 lb)
• Gross weight: 14,000 kg (30,865 lb)
• Max takeoff weight: 19,277 kg (42,499 lb)
• Saturn AL 31 (76.2 KN Dry Thrust, 122.6 KN Afterburner Thrust)
As it can be seen from specification, Chengdu J 10 is much bigger, more powerful and can carry bigger payload, fuel and go further giving it a true multirole capability. However, that is not the point. The point here is to discuss a possible scenario when both planes will face each other. What can be the out of a possible conflict between the two planes in case they face each other in BVR, WVR combat Scenario in likely conflict situation? Let us discuss.
Possible Conflict Zone:
Against China:
As Tejas is a light weight fighter, it is unlikely that it may go deep inside Chinese territory for carpet bombing or air superiority mission or possible forced Intrusion role. Its role will be limited to air escort, interception or at the most attacking border areas of LAC or Arunaachal border or North eats are of India etc on tactical missions like runway denial attack, attacking radar installation or other fixed establishment etc. They area where both the plane will face each other is most probably when J 10 is on attack mission and Tejas MK1 A is given the responsibility of intercepting it or Su 30 MKI is sent on air superiority mission and Tejas is escorting MKI or possibly or in rare cases where Tejas is given a mission to covertly attack some nearby Radar like installation or air strip in Himalaya to make it useless.
Against Pakistan:
The possible conflict zone against Pakistan is totally different from the possible conflict zone against China. Here, it can be plain area except some area of Kashmir. Both the countries will be watching the air strip of each other with AWACS and will know any movement as soon as happens from air base or air strip. In Kashmir, possible warzone will be similar to possible warzone with China in Ladakh. However, S 400 has changed the scenario. Now AWACS of Pakistan air force will have to maintain at a safe distance from IB or LOC to keep itself safe. So possible real time information advantage of Pakistan will be lost.
BVR Combat:
In a possible attack on Indian installation, Tejas Mk1 A is entrusted with the responsibility to intercept J 10 at a distance beyond Visual range. Tejas came into action immediately and got airborn within few seconds. Because of superior AESA radar with over 900+ TR module did not have any difficulty in detecting J 10 C 100 KM away. Tejas is equipped with Astra Mk1, I Derby, Astra Mk2 (Once it is in operation) etc. Though R 37 offers a range in excess of 200 KM, it is not very effective against High Manoeuvrability targets with superior electronic countermeasures. China will use PL 15 in BVR combat. PL 15 missile was hyped a lot for its long range, recent specifications of PL 15 has revealed 145 KM of the range, almost similar to Astra Mk2. Both the planes will be carrying almost similar range missile but Tejas because of its small size and composite body will be much lesser visible to J 10 than J10 visible to Tejas from almost double the distance. KLJ 7 is said to have 175 KM range against 5 Sq. Meter RCS target against ELTA 2052 or UTTAM which has 130 to 150 KM range against 2 Sq meter RCS target which is superior to KLJ 7. Moreover, Indian or Israeli radars are equipped with anti-Jamming features, Track while search mode etc. which makes them superior to Chinese KLJ 7. J 10 will be visible to Tejas at least 80 to 100 KM away while J 10 cannot see Tejas beyond 50 KM. Tejas will have first see first fire advantage.
In an exercise called Falcon strike 2015 against Thai Air force which used Saab Gripen C against Chinese J11, Saab Gripen dominated over J 11 very effectively in 33 BVR combats out of which Chinese J 11 could not won a single fight. They were very badly humiliated in BVR combat. Now, Chinese argue that their plane has much better radar and missile now but so as the case with other planes. Tejas is equipped with best of Indian, Russin and Israeli systems. France has offered Metero if Indian uses its own radar. This Combo of world’s top class missiles with state of art AESA radar and small RCS will give Tejas a decisive edge over J 10 in any BVR combat.
WVR Combat:
In a possible scenario, while J 10 takes of from a very closely situated air strip or takes advantage of mountain terrain in Himalayas and comes very close before it is detected. Tejas is launched to intercept it. This will be a possible close combat scenario of WVR combat.
J 10 in its original Avatar was a very ordinary plane which cannot be even said contemporary. It has lots of metal in surface, big size and big RCS, poor flight control system, unreliable engine with high thrust and low reliability. As a result, many J 10 were lost in accident. In 2017, it was revealed that 9 planes were lost in a short span of 2 to 3 years. It had poor aerodynamics and poor manoeuvrability, ordinary flight control system etc. However, China stared making changes in newer versions of J 10. TVC came in from J 10 B. Big visible aerodynamic changes were made. New Radar and weapons came in. This made J 10 a much better plane. TVC gave J 10 a big advantage in WVR or close combat because of better agility and ability to perform cobra maneuver.
Tejas, from its design stage was conceived as a small, highly agile, Low RCS plane with contemporary radar and missiles with HMD which is designed to dominate conventional planes in dog fight. Tejas will dominate J 10 initial models easily. However, there is a significant change since the arrival J 10 B.
WVR combat will be very interesting between J10 B/C against Tejas Mk1A. J 10 B/C with its TVC will have a very high maneuverability because of 3D TVC of of AL31 engine. It can perform cobra maneuver which is gives it a big advantage in changing position to gain suitable firing position quickly to fire PL 8 missile and dodge WVR missiles fired at J10. It will give China an advantage gun fight as well. China Claims PL8 to be a state of art missile but strategic circle does not recognize this Chinese claim.
Tejas is also a highly maneuverable plane but it does not have TVC and hence it cannot maneuver as quick as J 10 B/C. However, Tejas has a very high Instantaneous turn rate which gives it a capability to point nose faster towards enemy missile but cannot match J10 B/C in agility. However, the big advantage of Tejas is that it does not require pointing nose towards enemy aircraft because of state of art HMD by which Close combat missile can be fired towards enemy missile without pointing nose towards enemy plane. Pilot can just change the missile direction by seeing in enemy plane direction. Tejas Mk1 A will come with ASRAM and Paython V integrated with it. Paython V is considered as the most agile WVR missile. It has a very advance IRR Seeker very difficult to deceive. It can chase enemy plane from a direction significantly different from enemy plane. Python V integration gives Tejas pilot a significant freedom to fire at enemy plane without getting in suitable position to fire WVR missile in dog fight. Paython V had some issues with integration with Tejas but they are integrated successfully with Tejas and testing is also done. J 10 will have a big advantage because of high maneuverability while Tejas will have a big advantage because of state of art close combat missiles like ASRAM and Paython V integrated with state of art MHD. Tejas is equipped with highly advance software of Auto pilot and auto recovery from low speed which allows Teajs’ pilot to throw plane in any damn maneuver without worrying about losing the control of plane. Flight control system of tejas is top class and not a single plane is lost in accident 20 years of flight.
So far as other roles are concerned, Tejas has shown a great precision in serviceability and precision ground attack in Gagan Shakti exercise while J10 can carry greater payload to a longer distance. However, these are not the primary roles looked upon at by IAF and PLA air force respectively.
Conclusion:
Tejas has a clear advantage in BVR fight. All components of better BVR fighter such as Low RCS, powerful radar and state of art BVR missile are present in Tejas MK1A. Tejas leads in all the areas. In WVR combat, J 10B/C has a TVC advantage; Tejas has an advantage of state of art HMD and highly maneuverable missiles like Python V and ASRAM. Tejas Mk1A will have a state of art EW to dodge Chinese PL8 and its siblings. MKI demonstrated its EW capability against F 16 in 27th February 2019 in a fight over Kashmir. In WVR combat, there is no clear winner while in BVR Combat, Tejas Mk1A is a clear winner.
By : Vipul Dave
Date: 11-01-2021
Article cannot be reproduced or Video cannot be made without credit to writer and and Indian defense forum.
Recently, Pakistan announced that Pakistan will buy J10 plane from China to counter India’s Rafale which India has acquired from France. As the current fleet of PAF plane is not good enough to counter Rafale, they have decided to buy J 10 to counter Rafale. Pakistan had tried to get F 16 but that effort failed. Now, the only option left with Pakistan is to go for Chinese fighters. JF 17 is clearly not good enough inspite of upgrading it to Block III standard and hence, the only option left is J 10.
In the same time frame, India too is going to get TEJAS MK1 A which is a light category of aircraft and upgraded variant of Tejas Mk1 with over 40 modifications. Much is been said and discussed about JF 17 VS Tejas MK1 because both the fighters are in light category and made to replenish the depleting numbers of fighter squadrons of rival countries India and Pakistan. Both the countries claim full confidence in their planes. Now when Tejas is evolving in MK1A avatar, JF 17 is upgraded to Block III version. Simultaneously, Pakistan is on a purchase spree to purchase 25 J 10 fighters which will face India’s Su30 MKI, Rafale, Mirage 2000 and possibly Tejas MK1A. The reason of comparing A medium weight fighter J 10 with a light category small fighter Tejas MK1 A is that they may face each other in India Pakistan conflict on India’s western border or even Indo China conflict on Indian’s northern border. Much is said and discussed about JF 17 VS Tejas Mk1, a comparison is very much due on public forum which is missing.
vs
Let us start with specification:
Tejas Mk1
• Crew: 1
• Payload: 4000 KG +
• Length: 13.20 m (43 ft 4 in)
• Wingspan: 8.20 m (26 ft 11 in)
• Height: 4.40 m (14 ft 9 in)
• Wing area: 38.4 m² (413 ft²)
• Empty weight: 6,560 kg (14,300 lb)
• Loaded weight: 9,800 kg (21,605 lb)
• Max. takeoff weight: 14300 KG (increased in New Specification from 13500 KG)
• Internal fuel capacity: 2,458 kg
• External fuel capacity: 2 x 1,200-litre drop tank inboard, 1 x 725-litre drop tank under fuselage
• Engine GE 404 IN 20 (54 KN Dry thrust, 85 KN Afterburner thrust)
Chengdu J 10
Specifications (J-10A)
• Crew: 1.
• Length: 16.03 m (52 ft 7 in)
• Wingspan: 9.25 m (30 ft 4 in)
• Height: 5.43 m (17 ft 10 in)
• Wing area: 33 m2 (360 sq ft)
• Empty weight: 9,750 kg (21,495 lb)
• Gross weight: 14,000 kg (30,865 lb)
• Max takeoff weight: 19,277 kg (42,499 lb)
• Saturn AL 31 (76.2 KN Dry Thrust, 122.6 KN Afterburner Thrust)
As it can be seen from specification, Chengdu J 10 is much bigger, more powerful and can carry bigger payload, fuel and go further giving it a true multirole capability. However, that is not the point. The point here is to discuss a possible scenario when both planes will face each other. What can be the out of a possible conflict between the two planes in case they face each other in BVR, WVR combat Scenario in likely conflict situation? Let us discuss.
Possible Conflict Zone:
Against China:
As Tejas is a light weight fighter, it is unlikely that it may go deep inside Chinese territory for carpet bombing or air superiority mission or possible forced Intrusion role. Its role will be limited to air escort, interception or at the most attacking border areas of LAC or Arunaachal border or North eats are of India etc on tactical missions like runway denial attack, attacking radar installation or other fixed establishment etc. They area where both the plane will face each other is most probably when J 10 is on attack mission and Tejas MK1 A is given the responsibility of intercepting it or Su 30 MKI is sent on air superiority mission and Tejas is escorting MKI or possibly or in rare cases where Tejas is given a mission to covertly attack some nearby Radar like installation or air strip in Himalaya to make it useless.
Against Pakistan:
The possible conflict zone against Pakistan is totally different from the possible conflict zone against China. Here, it can be plain area except some area of Kashmir. Both the countries will be watching the air strip of each other with AWACS and will know any movement as soon as happens from air base or air strip. In Kashmir, possible warzone will be similar to possible warzone with China in Ladakh. However, S 400 has changed the scenario. Now AWACS of Pakistan air force will have to maintain at a safe distance from IB or LOC to keep itself safe. So possible real time information advantage of Pakistan will be lost.
BVR Combat:
In a possible attack on Indian installation, Tejas Mk1 A is entrusted with the responsibility to intercept J 10 at a distance beyond Visual range. Tejas came into action immediately and got airborn within few seconds. Because of superior AESA radar with over 900+ TR module did not have any difficulty in detecting J 10 C 100 KM away. Tejas is equipped with Astra Mk1, I Derby, Astra Mk2 (Once it is in operation) etc. Though R 37 offers a range in excess of 200 KM, it is not very effective against High Manoeuvrability targets with superior electronic countermeasures. China will use PL 15 in BVR combat. PL 15 missile was hyped a lot for its long range, recent specifications of PL 15 has revealed 145 KM of the range, almost similar to Astra Mk2. Both the planes will be carrying almost similar range missile but Tejas because of its small size and composite body will be much lesser visible to J 10 than J10 visible to Tejas from almost double the distance. KLJ 7 is said to have 175 KM range against 5 Sq. Meter RCS target against ELTA 2052 or UTTAM which has 130 to 150 KM range against 2 Sq meter RCS target which is superior to KLJ 7. Moreover, Indian or Israeli radars are equipped with anti-Jamming features, Track while search mode etc. which makes them superior to Chinese KLJ 7. J 10 will be visible to Tejas at least 80 to 100 KM away while J 10 cannot see Tejas beyond 50 KM. Tejas will have first see first fire advantage.
In an exercise called Falcon strike 2015 against Thai Air force which used Saab Gripen C against Chinese J11, Saab Gripen dominated over J 11 very effectively in 33 BVR combats out of which Chinese J 11 could not won a single fight. They were very badly humiliated in BVR combat. Now, Chinese argue that their plane has much better radar and missile now but so as the case with other planes. Tejas is equipped with best of Indian, Russin and Israeli systems. France has offered Metero if Indian uses its own radar. This Combo of world’s top class missiles with state of art AESA radar and small RCS will give Tejas a decisive edge over J 10 in any BVR combat.
WVR Combat:
In a possible scenario, while J 10 takes of from a very closely situated air strip or takes advantage of mountain terrain in Himalayas and comes very close before it is detected. Tejas is launched to intercept it. This will be a possible close combat scenario of WVR combat.
J 10 in its original Avatar was a very ordinary plane which cannot be even said contemporary. It has lots of metal in surface, big size and big RCS, poor flight control system, unreliable engine with high thrust and low reliability. As a result, many J 10 were lost in accident. In 2017, it was revealed that 9 planes were lost in a short span of 2 to 3 years. It had poor aerodynamics and poor manoeuvrability, ordinary flight control system etc. However, China stared making changes in newer versions of J 10. TVC came in from J 10 B. Big visible aerodynamic changes were made. New Radar and weapons came in. This made J 10 a much better plane. TVC gave J 10 a big advantage in WVR or close combat because of better agility and ability to perform cobra maneuver.
Tejas, from its design stage was conceived as a small, highly agile, Low RCS plane with contemporary radar and missiles with HMD which is designed to dominate conventional planes in dog fight. Tejas will dominate J 10 initial models easily. However, there is a significant change since the arrival J 10 B.
WVR combat will be very interesting between J10 B/C against Tejas Mk1A. J 10 B/C with its TVC will have a very high maneuverability because of 3D TVC of of AL31 engine. It can perform cobra maneuver which is gives it a big advantage in changing position to gain suitable firing position quickly to fire PL 8 missile and dodge WVR missiles fired at J10. It will give China an advantage gun fight as well. China Claims PL8 to be a state of art missile but strategic circle does not recognize this Chinese claim.
Tejas is also a highly maneuverable plane but it does not have TVC and hence it cannot maneuver as quick as J 10 B/C. However, Tejas has a very high Instantaneous turn rate which gives it a capability to point nose faster towards enemy missile but cannot match J10 B/C in agility. However, the big advantage of Tejas is that it does not require pointing nose towards enemy aircraft because of state of art HMD by which Close combat missile can be fired towards enemy missile without pointing nose towards enemy plane. Pilot can just change the missile direction by seeing in enemy plane direction. Tejas Mk1 A will come with ASRAM and Paython V integrated with it. Paython V is considered as the most agile WVR missile. It has a very advance IRR Seeker very difficult to deceive. It can chase enemy plane from a direction significantly different from enemy plane. Python V integration gives Tejas pilot a significant freedom to fire at enemy plane without getting in suitable position to fire WVR missile in dog fight. Paython V had some issues with integration with Tejas but they are integrated successfully with Tejas and testing is also done. J 10 will have a big advantage because of high maneuverability while Tejas will have a big advantage because of state of art close combat missiles like ASRAM and Paython V integrated with state of art MHD. Tejas is equipped with highly advance software of Auto pilot and auto recovery from low speed which allows Teajs’ pilot to throw plane in any damn maneuver without worrying about losing the control of plane. Flight control system of tejas is top class and not a single plane is lost in accident 20 years of flight.
So far as other roles are concerned, Tejas has shown a great precision in serviceability and precision ground attack in Gagan Shakti exercise while J10 can carry greater payload to a longer distance. However, these are not the primary roles looked upon at by IAF and PLA air force respectively.
Conclusion:
Tejas has a clear advantage in BVR fight. All components of better BVR fighter such as Low RCS, powerful radar and state of art BVR missile are present in Tejas MK1A. Tejas leads in all the areas. In WVR combat, J 10B/C has a TVC advantage; Tejas has an advantage of state of art HMD and highly maneuverable missiles like Python V and ASRAM. Tejas Mk1A will have a state of art EW to dodge Chinese PL8 and its siblings. MKI demonstrated its EW capability against F 16 in 27th February 2019 in a fight over Kashmir. In WVR combat, there is no clear winner while in BVR Combat, Tejas Mk1A is a clear winner.
Last edited:
