HAL HJT-36 Sitara

[laughingbuddha]

More Hawks.

 

[venkat]

SARAS is a product of NAL and not from HAL....once certified HAL may produce it as per earlier reports!!!!

 

[makmohan]

IAF floats RFI on 85 intermediate trainer | idrw.org

The inevitable has happened. With the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd HJT-36 intermediate jet trainer delayed beyond the IAF's planned induction schedule, a global RFI has been floated requesting global OEMs to pitch their products for a possible future acquisition. The IAF currently has Pilatus PC-7 Mk-II trainers for basic training and Hawk Mk.132 trainers for advanced lead-in training. With its ageing Kirans on their way out, the IAF desperately needs new intermediate Stage-II trainers to fill the yawning gap. HAL's HJT-36 was to have joined the training fleet in June 2012, but has been delayed for a plethora of reasons, including a series of accidents and so-far insurmountable odds in proving crucial safety and recovery features in field trials.
In the RFI, the IAF has stipulated that the aircraft should be easy to fly and have good control response/agility. The flying qualities should preferably conform to Mil-F-8785C and Mil Std 1797-A. The aircraft should demonstrate the following qualities: (a) Stalling. An unmistakable natural stall warning should be available, irrespective of the configuration. (b) Spinning. The aircraft must be resistant to spin but it should be possible to perform intentional spin up to six turns to either side and recover safely thereafter. The aircraft behaviour in the spin should be predictable and consistent. (c) Aerobatics The IJT should be capable of performing loops, barrel rolls, rolls, combination manoeuvres and negative 'g' flight without adverse effects on the engine and aircraft structure. The aircraft should be capable of sustained inverted flight for at least 30 seconds at sea level at maximum take-off power.

The aircraft has also been specifically described as a counter-insurgency platform in the RFI. To that end, the IAF has also stipulated that the aircraft should be capable of carrying at least 1000 kg of external load. The aircraft should be equipped with a minimum of five hard points and each hard point on the wing should be stressed to carry at least 300 kg stores. The aircraft should be free from buffet, dutch roll, snaking and wing rock during air to ground weapon training. The aircraft should be capable of employing the following armament: (a) Gun. A light weight gun/ gun-pod with adequate ammunition for at least five seconds of firing time. (b) Rocket Pods. Reusable rocket pods. (c) Bombs. Should be able to carry at least 4x250 kg retarded or ballistic bombs. The stations should be capable of employing Carrier Bomb Light Stores (CBLS) type of dispensers for carriage of practice bombs (25 lbs and three Kg).

Given concerns over the performance of the HJT-36, the IAF has gone into great detail over the flight envelope requirements of the desired aircraft. According to the RFI, the aircraft should be safely operable accelerations of up to +7.0 g and -2.5 'g' in Normal Training Configuration* (NTC). With external stores (other than empty Drop tank) the aircraft should be cleared for operations at accelerations up to +5g and -1.5g. Service ceiling should be at least 9000m. In the NTC, the maximum speed in flight must not be less than 750 kmph CAS and the ac should not display any marked compressibility effects up to 0.75 M. The maximum sustained speed at sea level must be at least 700 kmph in NTC and 550 kmph at maximum AUW. In clean configuration, the 1'g' stalling speed must not exceed 175 kmph with all services retracted. In the NTC, the IJT should have a glide ratio of 1:12 or better.

Vendors likely to respond to the RFI by April 4 include Yakovlev, Alenia Aermachhi, Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI), Boeing, Saab, Northrop-Grumman and Beechcraft.

 

[Twinblade]

http://thumkar.blogspot.in/2014/02/breaking-iaf-moves-ahead-with-ijt.html

The IAF recently released a Request for Information for an Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT) that would be used primarily for Stage-2 training of its pilots with a secondary counter insurgency role.

The selected vendor will be required to discharge 30% offset obligations as per the provisions of DPP-2013.

First thing first! The release of the RFI doesn't mean the HJT-36 Sitara project is dead. Neither does it mean that the Sitara won't be the IJT that the IAF ultimately ends up procuring!

The RFI is likely aimed at ensuring that the IAF has a fallback if the Sitara fails to obtain IOC by June 2014 and FOC in reasonable time thereafter.

Even if HAL surprises the IAF and the country by obtaining IOC in June, and FOC in December, its HJT-36 Sitara may not measure up to the QRs stipulated in the IAF RFI, specially those pertaining to Stall and Spin characteristics.

An HAL rep told IDP Sentinel at DefExpo 2014 on February 7, 2014 that HJT-36 is likely to commence stall tests within a month. HAL has identified the point on the wing where the boundary layer flow is turning turbulent and breaking up leading to a pre-stall wing drop; HAL plans to use boundary layer energizing strakes to remedy the problem.

What is clear to me as a pilot is that there is little chance of HAL remedying the issue by IOC. In a recent statement in parliament, Minister of State for Defense Shri Jitendra Singh hinted that stall and spin characteristic refinement could wait till FOC. That would be a big mistake, because there is really no guarantee that the problem would be remedied - ever! Besides, there is too much optimism in the belief that it could happen by December 2014. If it was that simple, it would have been remedied already. After all, it's nearly three years since PT1 crashed in April 2011 following loss of control.

HJT-36 appears in compliance of all QR's stated in the RFI. Indeed, the QRs are likely to be an exact copy of the QRs given to HAL for developing the HJT-36.

I will go to the extent of saying, the IAF'S Spin QRs are contestable as being overstated.

Anyway, it's for the reader to judge. Here is a summary of the IJT RFI QRs

Luckily for HAL, there are few single engine jet trainers around. Two contenders could be Italy's Aermacchi MB-339 and Spain's CASA C-101.

General Characteristic

The IAF is looking for a light, twin seat (tandem or side-by-side?), single engine jet trainer with conventional controls in which the instructor seat can be used for simulating emergencies.

Stall and Spin

The aircraft must give an unmistakable natural stall warning, irrespective of the configuration. It must be resistant to spin but should allow intentional spinning with safe recovery upto six turns to either side. The aircraft behavior in the spin should be predictable and consistent.

Handling Characteristics

The IJT should be capable of performing loops, barrel rolls, rolls, combination maneuvers and negative 'g' flight without adverse effects on the engine and aircraft structure. It should be capable of sustained inverted flight for at least 30 seconds at sea level at maximum takeoff power.

Flying Envelope

When flying in Normal Training Configuration (NTC), the aircraft must be capable of maneuvering at up to to +7.0 g to -2.5 g. (NTC would correspond to clean configuration or with empty drop tanks) With external stores (other than empty drop tank) the aircraft should be cleared for operations at accelerations upto +5g and -1.5g

Max speed in NTC must not be less than 750 kph CAS and the aircraft should not display any marked compressibility effects upto 0.75 M. A service ceiling of 9-km is required.

In clean configuration in level flight stall speed must not exceed 175 kph without flaps or slats. NTC glide ratio should be better than 1:12

Climb and Turn Performance

In NTC, the takeoff distance to clear a 15-m obstacle from a dry, hard surfaced runway at sea level and with nil wind must not exceed 900-m; ROC must be at least 20 m/s.

The aircraft should be able to perform sustained turns up to 3.5 'g' at sea level in NTC and 2.25 'g' at max AUW.

Range and Endurance

NTC ferry range should be at least 1500-km and endurance, 2-hr at 3-km altitude.

Armament

The aircraft should be capable of carrying at least 1000 kg of external load, have a minimum of five hard points, each stressed to carry at least 300-kg stores. It should be, free from buffet, dutch roll, snaking and wing rock during air to ground weapon training.

The aircraft should be capable of employing the following armament :-

(a) Gun. A light weight gun/ gun-pod with adequate ammunition for at least 5 sec of firing time.
(b) Rocket Pods. Reusable rocket pods.
(c) Bombs. Should be able to carry at least 4x250 kg retarded or ballistic bombs. The stations should be capable of employing Carrier Bomb Light Stores (CBLS) type of dispensers for carriage of practice bombs (25 lbs and 3 Kg).

 

[Twinblade]

HJT-36 prototype for spin tests.
------------------

Old discovery channel segment on HJT-36.

 

[Twinblade]

Request for information (RFI) / Expression of Interest (EoI)

Weight Reduction / Optimisation of HAL developed Intermediate Jet Trainer – HJT-36

http://www.hal-india.com/tender/ardc/NIT_EOI-%20HJT-36_16-8-14.pdf

HAL has floated a tender for optimisation of weight of HJT-36 before commencing production. No news about aerodynamic changes or IOC/FOC. It is unlikely that any production version Sitara would be delivered before the end of next year.

 

[Jagdish58]

HJT-36 Sitara facing problems admits Defence Minister Jaitley

Defence Minister Arun Jaitley in a written reply to Naresh Gujralin informed in Rajya Sabha today, that Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT), which was supposed to be replacement for the Kiran aircraft, has not so far been able to resolve critical wing and airframe Design & Development issues related to stall and spin.

In order to meet the emergent situation created due to inordinate delay in the IJT project, IAF has already initiated the process for extending the technical life of the Kiran aircraft. The IAF has also initiated action to look for alternate options for the IJT.
IAF has already issued RFI to foreign vendors and Italian company Alenia Aermacchi has offered M-311 Trainer and Argentinean company Fabrica Militar de Aviones (FMA) has offered FMA IA 63 Pampa III to meet Indian air force requirement.

M-311 is powered by powered by a single Pratt & Whitney Canada JT15D-5C turbofan, which only generates 14.19 KN of thrust , Earlier IJT Prototypes were powered by French SNECMA Turbomeca Larzac 04-H-20 which were generating 14.12 kN of thrust, but IAF demanded higher thrust engines, which lead to development of powerful NPO Saturn AL-55I engine which generated 16.9 kN of thrust . so M-311 will not able to meet IAF requirements, while FMA IA 63 Pampa III is powered by Garrett TFE731-2-2N turbofan which generates 15.57 kN of thrust again lower than AL-55I engine, while AL-55I was specifically developed for HJT-36. It will be interesting to see which Aircraft IAF will choose .



HJT-36 Sitara facing problems admits Defence Minister Jaitley | idrw.org

 

[sob]

HJT 36 Project a complete failure

Livefist: Defence Minister Confirms Livefist Report, Rings Death Knell For Intermediate Trainer

Confirming a series of reports here on Livefist on devastating trouble for HAL's indigenous HJT-36 Sitara intermediate jet trainer, Indian defence minister Arun Jaitley today told Parliament that critical problems with the platform had forced the Indian Air Force to look for a foreign replacement. Here's the minister's full statement:

The IAF conducts intermediate stage of flying training for ab-initio pilots on the Kiran aircraft. These aircraft will complete their technical life over the next couple of years. HAL, which has been developing the Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT), as a replacement for the Kiran aircraft, has not so far been able to resolve critical wing and airframe Design & Development issues related to stall and spin. In order to meet the emergent situation created due to inordinate delay in the IJT project, IAF has already initiated the process for extending the technical life of the Kiran aircraft. The IAF has also initiated action to look for alternate options for the IJT.


The current situation is, in effect, a culmination of rumblings that Livefist reported in 2012. Plain bad news. For the IAF. For HAL. For indigenous industry.

 

[sob]

Re: HJT 36 Project a complete failure

News item from HT

Unstable, Unflyable and Unsafe

 

[Blackwater]

Re: HJT 36 Project a complete failure

HAL ka HAAL BEHAAL should be privatized same with DRDO

 

[sob]

Re: HJT 36 Project a complete failure

After years of spreading false news about the progress of the aircraft, HAL last month was forced to seek international help in redesigning the Trainer aircraft. IIRC HAL was pushing this to IAF and trying to block the Swiss deal. What happened to those commitments?

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2014/07/exclusive-cornered-completely-hal-to-re.html

If they had the grace to come off their high horse a few years before IAF could have had a international class Trainer which was made in India.

 

[Srinivas_K]

Re: HJT 36 Project a complete failure

This aircraft has some serious design flaws which cannot be fixed.

 

[p2prada]

Re: HJT 36 Project a complete failure

If they had the grace to come off their high horse a few years before IAF could have had a international class Trainer which was made in India.

They should have brought it back to the drawing board when the new engine was chosen. They would have done a better job.

 

[sob]

Re: HJT 36 Project a complete failure

They should have brought it back to the drawing board when the new engine was chosen. They would have done a better job.

this mess up with the engine looks to be a speciality of HAL. The PSU culture where decision making and risk taking are not encouraged is the main reason for the delays and failures.

 

[p2prada]

Re: HJT 36 Project a complete failure

this mess up with the engine looks to be a speciality of HAL. The PSU culture where decision making and risk taking are not encouraged is the main reason for the delays and failures.

They think they are so smart that they believe they will always build to specification the first time, that considering we don't even have proper engine technology. An overweight aircraft is always bound to fail.

They are just going to sit around twiddling their thumb with IJT expecting a foreign consultant to fix their problem and they actually wanted to take away the BTA also.

They also realize that the IAF will simply import IJT because of this debacle. Sucks to know we have such people running our aerospace industry.

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: HJT 36 Project a complete failure

After years of spreading false news about the progress of the aircraft, HAL last month was forced to seek international help in redesigning the Trainer aircraft. IIRC HAL was pushing this to IAF and trying to block the Swiss deal. What happened to those commitments?

Livefist: EXCLUSIVE: Totally Cornered, HAL To Re-design Lumbering Intermediate Trainer


If they had the grace to come off their high horse a few years before IAF could have had a international class Trainer which was made in India.

Totally cornered?

Does that also mean BAe which was contracted by HAL to resolve the spin issue was unable to find the cure?

No one knows, it seems the Livefist guy has already made up his mind about the inability of BAE to offer good consultancy to resolve even simple design issues on an intermediate jet trainer!!!!

This IJT has nothing to do with pliatus trainer import of IAF. That was HTT-40 , if I am correct.

And there is no IJT Sitara like trainer with the performance demanded by IAF, exist anywhere in the world if we go by the ASR issued by IAF

The requirement issued by IAF prompted HAL to contract a higher thrust russian AL engine which had piss poor MTBO in place of a reliable lazerac french engine that had lesser thrust, and a redesign was done to cater to the engine , which was another problem reported extensively.



Ofcourse now they will change their ASR to suit any one of the available trainer in the market like they did for pliatus after issuing a tougher ASR for HTT 40 and diluted it for Pliatus.


Prof. Prodyut Das: Some Notes on the Forthcoming Spin Trials of the HJT 36

The HJT 36 programme is another of those Defence related mysteries. Here was a programme which showed, briefly, what standards we are capable of. Excellently managed (Take a bow, Yogesh Kumar!) it went from sanction to first flight in 3 years which is about good as it gets, only to hit a sandbank when the engine was changed. Talk of changing horses in midstream!

Mind you, the idea was not bad. The French, seeing an opportunity, reportedly wanted higher prices for their Larzac and as usual there was some weight increase/specifications change.

The Saturn AL-55I was chosen but things then began to unravel. The original design and project management leaders retired practically en masse. There was no system of retaining them. The engine was delayed by two years over the scheduled delivery and when installed it reportedly would flame out during spins and the TBO was only 250 hrs.

I think HAL made a classic mistake of following the specifications and did not allow enough "let" in the design. As the great Sydney Camm used to say "Follow the specifications too exactly and you are a "goner" most of the time".

Why change an engine midway? IAF should be awarded the latest and greates ASR upgrading service of all time.

Engine flame out and TBO. Very little actual details are known but it is surprising to hear of a TBO of 250 hours. This is what was normal with Russian engines some 60 years ago. I cannot believe Saturn cannot do better than that today.

Why thrust such a dubious engine on HAl's head?

There is really no need to panic, even if the above prognosis is true. A prototype crashing during spin trials is yawningly boring. The HT-2 had spin related crash. The French Epsilon had a spin related crash but, after Gallic shrugs no doubt, they simply sawed off the old tail and fitted a completely new fin which was as effective as it was elegant! BTW the location of the HJT 36 fin w.r.t. the tail plane, is pretty good.

So these problems are encountered in every trainer trainer development program, it seems.However our Live fist guy has already decided that this trainer is unworkable and we should go for IMPORTS!!!!

If IAF follows the same ASR revision spree,

Will they ask French to put a one meter dia ASEA radar on the front ,
another smaller radar on the back,
and 3D thrust vectoring
on rafale ?

If they ask when will french finish it and deliver?

It seems our great mother in law of tejas prodyut das has a different view other than the one propounded by our Aerodynamic expert Livesfist guy

PS- I do wish Mr Das show the same gracious grandpa approach on ADA's tejas!!!!!!. But Das wants tejas to be handed over to this same old tried ,tested and busted HAL-IAF combo of mid design ASR revising enterprise!!!!.

only after seeing through this patriotic game of design your ever ASR upgrading fighter played by IAF-HAL combo in 1960s,70s and 80s the then SA Swaminathan to PM Rajiv Gandhi ,

ripped off tejas effort from HAL abd formed ADA to execute it. Otherwise tejas too would have shrunk without a trace in this mighty ASR revision ocean

A noob question how does HAL which could not stand this upgrade my ASR IAF's trainer will complete the design work on FGFA?

Sure these guys are out to make india a laughing stock of the world.

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: HJT 36 Project a complete failure

They think they are so smart that they believe they will always build to specification the first time, that considering we don't even have proper engine technology. An overweight aircraft is always bound to fail.

They are just going to sit around twiddling their thumb with IJT expecting a foreign consultant to fix their problem and they actually wanted to take away the BTA also.

They also realize that the IAF will simply import IJT because of this debacle. Sucks to know we have such people running our aerospace industry.

Foreign consultants couldn't even fix spin issues on trainer means what?

they don't even have that expertise?

http://profprodyutdas.blogspot.in/2014/08/some-notes-on-forthcoming-spin-trials.html

Apparently mr das does not think so , it seems,,,

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: HJT 36 Project a complete failure

They should have brought it back to the drawing board when the new engine was chosen. They would have done a better job.

That was the intent behind new engine choice forced by IAf I think,

 

[charlie]

Re: HJT 36 Project a complete failure

Let's not blame the IAF for every mistake done by HAL and ADA.

Let's face it, PSU and not doing well because of their work culture, political will & for not supporting out of the box thinking.

HAL started hiring people from IAF just now, which should have been done years ago. In US and Russia, airforce pilots are the one who lead the Aircraft Designing team.

User(IAF) is not happy with the product, Manufacture (HAL) is not happy with the customer because of requirement changed during the ongoing project, the biggest issue is communication.

Let's face it, after sales service of HAL is really pathetic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ih8uxdSqADI

 

[sob]

Re: HJT 36 Project a complete failure

Foreign consultants couldn't even fix spin issues on trainer means what?

they don't even have that expertise?

Prof. Prodyut Das: Some Notes on the Forthcoming Spin Trials of the HJT 36

Apparently mr das does not think so , it seems,,,

You know the thing about getting foreign consultants.

First the client in this case HAL will never share all the data with.

Second the brass working originally on the project will never co-operate 100% with the outside consultants.

And lastly the client will expect to get a 100% solution on the table the minute the agreement is signed.

If you do not get the consultants from day one you will have this situation. Let us admit it as of date we do not have 100% of the expertise. It will come but we need to accept that and not devote our time in re inventing the wheel.

And lastly if a project is going to take a decade or more than the specs are going to change agains and again. You cannot blame the client of being choosy. Gone are the days when the customer had to buy whatever was on offer.