Turkish defense industry news updates

[rodeo]

I'm compiling a flood about TFX and its subsystems. It will contain the updates on the project from the middle of the last year to date. It's mostly from the TFX thread from defencehub.live . I'm trying to keep it as short as possible. So, stay tuned.

 

[Tang]

I have been looking at the TEI's website for a few minutes, the one thing that has caught my eye is the level of integration TEI has with major Western Engine giants: Rolls Royce, Safran and especially GE. I wish Indian Private Sector giants like Kalyani could think about this kind of partnership with established engine manufacturers. TEI's manufacturing is top-notch.

However regarding parts that TEI supplies for foreign engines like the LEAP or GEnx, etc: It doesn't seem as though these parts, their materials or their processes were designed by TEI. It appears to be the case that Western Engine Giants provide TEI with the raw material as well as the process and gets them to manufacture certain engine parts. This arrangement is similar to how India's HAL makes AL-31, Turbomecca Shakti and other engines that were primarily designed by foreign manufacturers and their processes for assembly and manufacturing of components was provided by the foreign manufacturers to HAL. If this is the case, then TEI doesn't hold the IPR of these parts, such as the blisks it makes as part of the LEAP engine HPC.

Looking at turbofan engines TEI has developed itself, these appear to be mostly small turbofan engines, smaller than India's Manik Turbofan. The biggest project under development using own technology in TEI (as per their website) seems to be the TS1400 turboshaft engine. This is similar to the Indian HTSE-1200 turboshaft engine being developed by HAL. The fact that Turkey is using a particular kind of single-engine turbine blade and thermal barrier coating on the TS1400 means that that is the particular technology for which they hold IPR.

It appears to me that in TEI is like India's HAL while TUBİTAK-MAM is like India's DRDO-GTRE. So it would be great if you could provide me some links pointing out the work of TUBİTAK-MAM in this area. TEI appears to be more of a manufacturer than an R&D organization. I've visited the website of TUBİTAK-MAM, but can't really find much info. I hope you'll be able to find more on TUBİTAK-MAM's work.

And they dont have own Kaveri level engine, till now.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

Yes but it has been down rated According to current specs.
View attachment 116661

Yep, both are same, but they reduced pressure ratio from 5:1 to 3.4:1 here

I think we are missing the point here. GTRE knows that Kaveri is 78 kg/s mass flow engine. Why would they put out an RFI asking for collaboration on 100 kg/s? Is there some other engine project in the works we don't know about? Look at the name of the program, its not written Kaveri, rather its written "Advanced Turbofan Experimental Engine".

Do you know what is the TeT of F414 ? Few years back I read that our DMS4 blade is better than the Rene6 blade used in F414. But I don't know how true it is??

Not sure, but I think it'll be somewhere approaching the 1900-2000K mark maybe. F-35's engine has achieved 2255K, for reference.
DMS4 is our third gen blade material, if I remember right. But I don't think we've ever managed to create a single-engine blade out of it.

 

[fire starter]

I think we are missing the point here. GTRE knows that Kaveri is 78 kg/s mass flow engine. Why would they put out an RFI asking for collaboration on 100 kg/s? Is there some other engine project in the works we don't know about? Look at the name of the program, its not written Kaveri, rather its written "Advanced Turbofan Experimental Engine".


Not sure, but I think it'll be somewhere approaching the 1900-2000K mark maybe. F-35's engine has achieved 2255K, for reference.
DMS4 is our third gen blade material, if I remember right. But I don't think we've ever managed to create a single-engine blade out of it.

DMS4 is 4th Gen one we follow American analogy and its Slightly better than American 3rd Gen one. I think we have been able to produce It. I AM sure it is the same fan mentioned by gtre.

 

[not so dravidian]

@Okabe Rintarou @Vamsi I just recently visited strategic front forum and in the Kaveri thread @Gautam Sarkar says, the distortion and screeching seems to have been solved. Now with new distortion fan, k9 is headed for testing it seems.

Maybe @fire starter can tell us more about the developments, since he a member there.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

And they dont have own Kaveri level engine, till now.

Yep. But they have the drive to achieve it. Just like the Chinese. Meanwhile here we are, spoiled for choice so much that we spend $1 Billion importing engines from GE and only $250-300 Million on developing one of our own. There needs to be a new IGMDP-like national project centered around ALL prime mover technologies: including internal combustion engines; industrial, aircraft and marine gas turbine engines; rocket engines (Methalox and higher thrust Cryogenic engine); Pulsejets, PDEs, Scramjets and Ramjets; Electric propulsors for space (Hall Effect Thrusters, etc); Electric motors (Axial flux motors, etc) and finally the big one: Fusion Drives.
Right now we have individual projects in half these areas. We need a national project for all these where funding is no bar.

DMS4 is 4th Gen one we follow American analogy and its Slightly better than American 3rd Gen one. I think we have been able to produce It. I AM sure it is the same fan mentioned by gtre.
View attachment 116663

Don't know what to think. Recently DMRL supplied single crystal blades for HAL's HTSE-1200 engine. Those were not DMRL's own material. Those were of a commercial American material: CMSX-4. Why did they not supply blades made out of DMS2? Both DMS2 and CMSX-4 are second generation single crystal materials. This is what leads me to believe that we are facing problems investment casting blades from materials we develop. I may be wrong though.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

@Okabe Rintarou @Vamsi I just recently visited strategic front forum and in the Kaveri thread @Gautam Sarkar says, the distortion and screeching seems to have been solved. Now with new distortion fan, k9 is headed for testing it seems.

Maybe @fire starter can tell us more about the developments, since he a member there.

Link please!

 

[UnderFingy]

We need a national project for all these where funding is no bar.

Whatever happened to the JV with Rolls-Royce?

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

Whatever happened to the JV with Rolls-Royce?

Not sure if we ever signed for such a JV.

 

[SavageKing456]

Whatever happened to the JV with Rolls-Royce?

There were reports of feasibility studies being conducted for new 110kn class jet engine along with RR don't know if it's true

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

There were reports of feasibility studies being conducted for new 110kn class jet engine along with RR don't know if it's true

Lets wait and watch if it results in an actual contract worth any value to us.

 

[Vamsi]

@Okabe Rintarou @Vamsi I just recently visited strategic front forum and in the Kaveri thread @Gautam Sarkar says, the distortion and screeching seems to have been solved. Now with new distortion fan, k9 is headed for testing it seems.

Maybe @fire starter can tell us more about the developments, since he a member there.

Saurav Jha says screeching issue is still there

 

[Vamsi]

I think we are missing the point here. GTRE knows that Kaveri is 78 kg/s mass flow engine. Why would they put out an RFI asking for collaboration on 100 kg/s? Is there some other engine project in the works we don't know about? Look at the name of the program, its not written Kaveri, rather its written "Advanced Turbofan Experimental Engine".


Not sure, but I think it'll be somewhere approaching the 1900-2000K mark maybe. F-35's engine has achieved 2255K, for reference.
DMS4 is our third gen blade material, if I remember right. But I don't think we've ever managed to create a single-engine blade out of it.

My guess is that 100Kg/s fan is for 110 KN engine. Distortion tolerance is key requirement for serpentine intake.As @fire starter said ,they may have derated this to fit Kaveri. In my opinion they are testing all the required tech for 110 KN engine on dry Kaveri, like Intake Fan, SCB ,TBC, combustion chamber, FADEC etc. After they have proven all this on dry Kaveri, they may design 110KN around all these technologies. It reduces the risks significantly for future engine.

 

[not so dravidian]

Saurav Jha says screeching issue is still there

I'm having poor network here. I try to get it tomorrow

 

[Vamsi]

Yep. But they have the drive to achieve it. Just like the Chinese. Meanwhile here we are, spoiled for choice so much that we spend $1 Billion importing engines from GE and only $250-300 Million on developing one of our own. There needs to be a new IGMDP-like national project centered around ALL prime mover technologies: including internal combustion engines; industrial, aircraft and marine gas turbine engines; rocket engines (Methalox and higher thrust Cryogenic engine); Pulsejets, PDEs, Scramjets and Ramjets; Electric propulsors for space (Hall Effect Thrusters, etc); Electric motors (Axial flux motors, etc) and finally the big one: Fusion Drives.
Right now we have individual projects in half these areas. We need a national project for all these where funding is no bar.


Don't know what to think. Recently DMRL supplied single crystal blades for HAL's HTSE-1200 engine. Those were not DMRL's own material. Those were of a commercial American material: CMSX-4. Why did they not supply blades made out of DMS2? Both DMS2 and CMSX-4 are second generation single crystal materials. This is what leads me to believe that we are facing problems investment casting blades from materials we develop. I may be wrong though.

DMS2 is just an experimental material. After its development they found many flaws in it,as it was their first development in this field. Later they upgraded it to DMS3 standard. They used the help from HAL division which manufactures AL-31F blades and further upgraded DMS3 to DMS4 . From DMS4 they derived the DMD4 (DS version of DMS4)

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

My guess is that 100Kg/s fan is for 110 KN engine. Distortion tolerance is key requirement for serpentine intake.As @fire starter said ,they may have derated this to fit Kaveri. In my opinion they are testing all the required tech for 110 KN engine on dry Kaveri, like Intake Fan, SCB ,TBC, combustion chamber, FADEC etc. After they have proven all this on dry Kaveri, they may design 110KN around all these technologies. It reduces the risks significantly for future engine.

You're making the same mistake again. If we go for a 110kN engine with a 100kg/s fan (and engine), it would weigh around 1500 kg. That would basically mean a thrust to weight ratio of (110X1000)/(1500X9.8) = 7.48
Even AL-31 has thrust to weight of 8.22

On the other hand, I am saying that they are targeting for a 110kN engine with 85-90kg/s mass flow rate and a weight less than 1200 kg. That would lead to a thrust to weight ratio of (110X1000)/(1200X9.8) = 9.35
That is more than that of GE 414 which has thrust to weight of 9

What we need is a high thrust to weight ratio at the desired thrust.

DMS2 is just an experimental material. After its development they found many flaws in it,as it was their first development in this field. Later they upgraded it to DMS3 standard. They used the help from HAL division which manufactures AL-31F blades and further upgraded DMS3 to DMS4 . From DMS4 they derived the DMD4 (DS version of DMS4)

My point is, DMRL used CMSX-4 for the blades of HTSE-1200. Why not use DMS3 or DMS4 blades? Even if they used an inferior material because the TET is not that high, the could have simply kept the TET low, and chosen DMS4 which being a better material would enhance life of engine blades. Makes me confused.

 

[not so dravidian]

You're making the same mistake again. If we go for a 110kN engine with a 100kg/s fan (and engine), it would weigh around 1500 kg. That would basically mean a thrust to weight ratio of (110X1000)/(1500X9.8) = 7.48
Even AL-31 has thrust to weight of 8.22

On the other hand, I am saying that they are targeting for a 110kN engine with 85-90kg/s mass flow rate and a weight less than 1200 kg. That would lead to a thrust to weight ratio of (110X1000)/(1200X9.8) = 9.35
That is more than that of GE 414 which has thrust to weight of 9

What we need is a high thrust to weight ratio at the desired thrust.

My point is, DMRL used CMSX-4 for the blades of HTSE-1200. Why not use DMS3 or DMS4 blades? Even if they used an inferior material because the TET is not that high, the could have simply kept the TET low, and chosen DMS4 which being a better material would enhance life of engine blades. Makes me confused.

My point is, DMRL used CMSX-4 for the blades of HTSE-1200. Why not use DMS3 or DMS4 blades? Even if they used an inferior material because the TET is not that high, the could have simply kept the TET low, and chosen DMS4 which being a better material would enhance life of engine blades. Makes me confused.

Simple. 1) HTSE started at 2015, only dsm3 was available.
2) HAL took this as an internal project just like HTSE 25kn engine.

Total miscalculation, hal shud have teamed with DRDO (GTRE) to coordinate.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

Simple. 1) HTSE started at 2015, only dsm3 was available.
2) HAL took this as an internal project just like HTSE 25kn engine.

Total miscalculation, hal shud have teamed with DRDO (GTRE) to coordinate.

But they are teaming up tho. The CMSX-4 blades were made by DRDO DMRL. Even if only DMS3 was available, that at least shows that a second generation CMSX-4 material is superior to DMS3 which is our 3rd gen material. Either that or there is some problem making blades out of our DMS series.
Those CMSX-4 blades were supplied this year as well.

 

[not so dravidian]

But they are teaming up tho. The CMSX-4 blades were made by DRDO DMRL. Even if only DMS3 was available, that at least shows that a second generation CMSX-4 material is superior to DMS3 which is our 3rd gen material. Either that or there is some problem making blades out of our DMS series.
Those CMSX-4 blades were supplied this year as well.

CMSX4 is the name given by Americans to their blade. No way that Americans wud have let us have a peek.

Maybe drdo's equivalent wud be dsm3

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

CMSX4 is the name given by Americans to their blade. No way that Americans wud have let us have a peek.

Maybe drdo's equivalent wud be dsm3

Its an American blade material that they sell commercially. Its 2nd generation, not their cutting edge 5th or 6th gen or CMC.
That the blades made by DMRL for HTSE-1200 were made of CMSX-4 was actually reported in a PIB press release, so its official. https://www.pib.gov.in/PressReleseDetailm.aspx?PRID=1714134