not so dravidian
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Thx, seems I mistook it for the Japanese varient
Turkish defense industry news updates
- Thread starter kunal1123
- Start date
Ok. I've been fast-reading the TFX thread of the defencehub.live and compiled an update flood about HÜRJET and TFX. All the posts have the timestamps.
First some info about some of the involved companies:
TAI/TUSAŞ - Turkish equivalent of HAL
TEI - Engine manufacturing and design company
TRMOTOR - Newly found jet engine design company
ASELSAN - designs, develops and manufactures modern electronic systems for military and industrial customers
HAVELSAN - software and systems company mostly active in the fields of C4ISR, naval combat systems, E-government applications, reconnaissance surveillance and intelligence systems, management information systems, simulation and training systems, logistic support, homeland security systems and energy management systems.
TÜBİTAK - Research Center that has hands-on applications on almost all fields I can think of. It has many branches.
ROKETSAN - not hard to guess their work from the name
Should mention a few names and give very short intros:
Temel Kotil - the CEO of TAI. An aeronautical engineer. Previous CEO of Turkish Airlines. Received his Ph.D in Mechanical Engineering from University of Michigan-Ann Arbor
Mahmut Akşit - the CEO of TEI. Ex GE engineer(10 years in R&D center). Received his Ph.D from Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute. Has very chummy relationships with GE executives. I remember his mentioning a head of GE engineering department was his roommate etc. He has many stories about GE that I don't have the time to tell here now.
İsmail Demir - president of of Defence Industries. An aircraft engineer. postgraduate from Michigan University and Ph.D from Washington University.
Reminder
Hürjet is the Turkish equivalent of Tejas;
TFX is, again, the Turkish equivalent of AMCA.
I will use three dashes "---" to separate posts. There is no order by subject. It's by date. If the text color is blue, it means I added that information(not originally in the post). So here we go,
---
(Aug 24, 2020)
Hürjet
FEATURES
- High AoA controllability
- Head-Up Display (HUD)
- Helmet Mounted Display (optional)
- Full authority, Digital Fly-by-Wire FCS
- State-of-the-art HMI, minimum conversion time to F-35 and TF
- Intra & Inter datalink
- NVG compatible (AJT, LIFT)
- Aerial refueling
- Carefree handling
- Embedded Tactical Training & Live Virtual Constructive Training Systems
- APU for autonomous operation also from austere airfield
ROLES
PERFORMANCE
---
(Aug 27, 2020)
TFX development timelines and costs
Phase-I: Engineering development and preliminary design phase
7 TF-X prototypes will be produced
Roll-out ceremony for first TF-X MMU in 2023. First flight is expected to be done in 2024/2025
Serial production phase
---
---
(Auf 27, 2020)
Ongoing infrastructure investment
TAI Wind tunnel center (It is said to be one of the most advanced wind tunnel of the World)
Operational:2022
Cost: 1,5 billion TL
Place: Ankara
Facility contains following capabilities;
TF-X MMU R&D, Analyse and Test Building
TAI Composite Production Facility (Fourth biggest in World)
TAI-Tübitak Near field RCS test & analyse facility & TAI-Far field RCS test facility
TAI Lightening test facility
(Oct 14, 2020)
The deals related with Tf-X:
---
(Feb 28, 2021)
Ismail Demir about the TF-X Current Status:
--> First Metal Cut was performed last week!
- TF-X Project is on Track, no hiccups to be expected
- Some of the Wind Tunnel Tests have already Started
---
(Mar 25, 2021)
The CDR of Hürjet is overlooked by Stirling Dynamics
Hard work and endless efforts with a great deal of team work finally paid off, resulting over 1700 pages of a critical design report. I feel like as if we have achieved to write a book called "introduction to trainer jet aircraft design&built 101". I am very proud to be a member of this magnificant team. Well done to all who is involved.
---
(Mar 14, 2021)
planned production capacities
#TfX= 24 aircraft/year
#Atak-2= 24 helicopter/year (T929 or heavy attack helicopter)
---
(Mar 14, 2021)
Temel Kotil:
Tubitak Bilgem is tasked with Flight computer of MMU.
---
(Mar 15, 2021)
TUSAS(TAI) have purchased a additive manufacturing machine which can produce 6m2 parts, this printer will be used to make Titanium bulkheads of MMU/TFX
They(TAI) are buying a 50.000 core new computer for simulations.
---
(Mar 27, 2021)
www.defenceturkey.com
---
(Apr 10, 2021)
Mr KOTIL: "If Turkey fails to do own ejection seat, it's not possible to make national aircraft "
---
(Apr 10, 2021)
TF-X MMU Sub-systems
Ejection Seat: (?)
Canopy: Volo (!)
OBOGS: BioSys (?)
Landing Gears: Turkish (Alp Avition (?)) and an Italian institute are developing. IP rights will be owned by Turkey.
BURFIS embedded RF systems (AESA radar+ EW sensors): Aselsan
BEOS embedded E/O systems (E/O and IRST sensors): Aselsan
Smart glass cockpit with mission computers and AI pilot decision support system: Aselsan
HMDS: Aselsan
APU (Auxiliary Power Unit): TrMotor (Design-Development)
ATSS (Air Turbine Start System): TrMotor (Design-development)
Turbofan engine (30000lb class): TrMotor (Design-Development)
Missile payload: Roketsan/TubitakSAGE
---
(Apr 25, 2021)
from interview with Temel Kotil:
> 2nd largest wind Tunnel will be finished at the End of 2022 and cost a whopping 100 Million USD
> Power Consumption is expected to be 15 Megawatts!
TF-X
> He says 10 Billion will be spend and at least 5 Billion USD of that are for Engineers Salaries in 10 Years Time
- Even though he said 60 Billion for Program Cost. That might be too high.
---
(Apr 25, 2021)
60 billion $ budget includes R&D expenditures, technological and manufacturing investments(wind tunnel, lightning test center, composite factory etc), salaries of engineer and workers, prototype aircraft, price of 250 aircraft to be procured and life cycle costs of those aircrafts.
Fly away cost of serial production fighter is expected to be 80 million $.
---
(Apr 25, 2021)
Mr Kotil: Retired Head engineer of Eurofighter program came to Tusaş for Hürjet.
---
(Apr 25, 2021)
Mr Kotil: Pakistani origin British citizen experienced engineers joined to TfX development program. "Hundreds" of similar experienced engineers (British citizen muslims (?)) who took clearence from British defence ministry is coming for TfX now.
---
(Apr 25, 2021)
Total cost of TF-X project is expected to be between 50-60 billion $. This figure includes everything.
9 prototype +250 Fighters=25 billion.
Salaries: 5 billion $
R&D and investment budget: 5 billion $
Life cycle costs: 25 billion $
---
(Apr 25, 2021)
Temel Kotil:
"The development cost of the MMU will be around 10 billion $. The development cost of the T929(heavy attack helicopter) will be just under 1 billion $."
"We are developing Hürjet, T629(light attack helicopter, will replace T129) and T925(heavy utility helicopter) projects with our own resources."
---
(Apr 30, 2021)
Temel Kotil:
"A Turkish and an Italian company will make MMU's landing gears together. It will be indigenious and national. Intellectual property rights will also be in TR."
(TAAC established by the Turkish company TUSAŞ-Altınay partnership. Italian company Magnaghi Aeronautica. TO)
---
(May 5, 2021)
2 flight prototypes, 1 static testing prototype, 1 fatigue testing prototype will be constructed in the scope of Hurjet project.
---
(May 6, 2021)
Planned configurations for Hürjet:
---
(May 7, 2021)
Radio Navigation Equipment (RNE) and its subsystems (TACAN / DME / VOR / ILS / ADF), which are currently supplied from abroad for the use of air platforms, are being developed with ASELSAN's own resources and with the subcontractor ESEN, and the Critical Design phase of the project has been completed.
Within the scope of the National Combat Aircraft Program, contract negotiations have been made for Flight Control System Sensors and Helmet Integrated Indicator, and the contracts are expected to be signed and come into effect in 2021.
Within the scope of the contract signed with TAI, studies for the integration of the Miniature Bomb, Intelligent Multi-Relief and Laser Guided Bomb to the National Combat Aircraft have started.
---
(May 10, 2021)
Tübitak MAM (Material research center)
Hacettepe U. - Aselsan JV
Gebze Teknik U.
Kimetsan (private company)
Some of the firms/institutions has done several works for air/naval platforms and probably they will also be doing RAM- Paint /Coating studies for TF-X.
---
(May 27, 2021)
TF-X calender.
2023 rollout, production of more prototypes
2023-2025 ground tests, production of more prototypes
2025 first flight, production of more prototypes ( I expect 6 to 9 prototypes will be produced)
2025-2028 air tests and integration and testing of advanced subsystems/equipment and weapons(National EOTS, BURFIS etc)
2028 Inıtial delivery of TFX block 1 and LRIP production (With F110 engines probably 1 TFX per month it might be even less)
2028+ Updates, capacity, ability improvement at system and subsystem levels, more weapon integration, and national engine integration. Reaching initial operational capability(IOC)
2030+ Delivery of the first TF-X block 2 with the national engine, the start of serial production(2 per month for ~10 years for 250 fighters), reaching final operational capability (FOC)
Projected airforce in 2040s
250+ TF-X of various blocks
An unknown number of unmanned fighter jets( This is not MIUS it is a real unmanned supersonic fighter jet. It will be announced in 2026 it will be similar to Hurjet in size. It has a similar schedule to TF-X and will serve with the TF-X as a manned-unmanned combo)
F-16 Block 50+ maybe some leftover 50s all nationally modernized close to retirement.
F-16 block 30/40s and most of the 50s retired/used for spares.
---
(May 28, 2021)
TAI subsonic wind tunnel will be the second biggest of the Europe.
---
(Jun 11, 2021)
Temel Kotil pointed out that the MMU consists of 20 thousand parts and stated that a ready-made engine will be used at the beginning, and then the engine to be developed by TRMotor will be integrated into the aircraft.
---
(Jul 1, 2021)
TfX air to air engagements section, 5 different items were listed in presentation.
https://defencehub.live/attachments/60dd81f049344_auto_x1_colored_toned_light_ai-jpg.24745/
https://defencehub.live/attachments/60dd81f046c70_auto_x1_colored_toned_light_ai-jpg.24748/
https://defencehub.live/attachments/60dd81f0465b7_auto_x1_colored_toned_light_ai-jpg.24749/
(Jul 21, 2021)
---
(Aug 10, 2021)
Temel kotil:
18th March 2023
(All these events happening on 18th March 2023. Can you imagine?
)
---
(Sep 7, 2021)
Ismail Demir has answered some critical questions on the TFX engine. He has stated that even though previously, we had some issues with RR on the production of an engine suitable for TFX, we are now in a position that these issues at present, are no longer valid. So the ball is at RR’s court. Going forward on the engine side he said there are options:
1. To jointly produce an engine with RR
2. To use an engine that is available at the moment. But there are none that will satisfy our performance needs.
3. To produce our own engine. In order to be self sufficient we have great emphasis on this.
---
(Sep 12, 2021)
---
(Sep 25, 2021)
Defense Turkey: Sir, from the perspective of an aeronautical engineer, what do you think is the most challenging part of the MMU? Engine or avionics or something else?
Temel KOTİL: MMU is a total work. Our primary goal is to perform the first engine start on March 18, 2023. Our next goal is to take off the plane on March 18, 2025 and deliver our first plane on March 18, 2028. An airplane is like a living creature, neither easy nor difficult. We found and brought together people to do it, then we set up the necessary infrastructures, and then we do it like a normal business. It is not a miraculous job, but it requires labor-intensive, idea-intensive work, tears and sweat.
---
(Oct 3, 2021)
According to Temel Kotil the production of the first prototype for TF-X has begun.
Hürjet, T-929, TF-X, Göksungur.
TAI is busy.
Hope to see pictures in a couple of months of it on the production line.
---
(Oct 3, 2021)
2023 TAI
---
(Oct 3, 2021)
Quite a few details on Hürjet.
- 4 different versions
- going to replace T38, F5 etc.
- initial 55, but expected over 100 Hürjets
- engine choice F404 due to single engine configuration, which EJ200 apparently didn’t have.
---
(Oct 19, 2021)
The MMU/TF-X Block-0, Block-I
(2029) and Block-II (2032) aircraft
will be powered by General Electric’s
F110 Turbofan Family (probably F110-
GE-129E version due to twin engine
configuration), and starting from
Block-III (2035) the aircraft will gain
true 5th Generation capabilities with
indigenous 35.000lb class turbofan
engines featuring stealthy exhaust
nozzles for low-observability.
---
(Oct 19, 2021)
Defence Turkey:
The MMU/TF-X will also have new generation features including Low
Ob s e r va b i l i t y, H i g h Maneuverability (to be better than F-16C), Internal Weapons Bays, External Weapons Carriage (for NATO and Indigenous weapons), Increased
Situational Awareness, Interoperability with AEW&C aircraft, UCAVs and AARs, Supercruise, Advanced Avionics for Sensor Fusion (5th Generation avionics suit), Intra Flight Data Link System (IFDL, to provide wide-band data-sharing [such as Radar, EOTS
and IRST data] capability during flight between TF-X aircraft as in the F-35 and F-22), Link-16, S e m i - A u t o n o m o u s Operation Capability (semi-autonomous aircraft will provide necessary feedback to quarantine mission success to the pilot via HMDS, the TF-X will feature a capability that will ensure that even if a pilot that has died, the aircraft would be able to return to base safely thanks to Artificial Intelligence capability) a n d I n d e p e n d e n t Operation Capability (no need for other A/C).
---
(Oct 19, 2021)
TF141 turbofan engine for TfX. (35000lb)
"According to unconfirmed information
that I obtained from our sources Turkey (TR Motor Power Systems) will soon
sign a contract with Ivchenko Progress from Ukraine for cooperation in the development of 35.000lb class turbofan engine (dubbed TF-141) to power TF-X aircraft."
------------------------------------------ THE END ------------------------------------
Phew.. I didn't wrote any of the above myself but reading through 92 pages took a bit time. These are what I deem as important announcements and updates about the project. But since I'm a newbie, maybe you should go to the thread read it for yourself. I've done quite bit trimming. There are very intriguing technical discussion about everything about the project. I learned a lot but didn't even scratched the surface yet. Apart from the posts that I copy-pasted above there is a new development that's not written above. It's been announced on 8th October that the integration process of the new AESA radar of ASELSAN to the AKINCI drone has begun. So we'll see a drone flying with an AESA radar for the first time. This drone will have AA missile and EW capabilities. Next year our F16s(Block 30) will begin to be outfitted with AESA.
(I hope the images load without problem)
Thanks for reading
First some info about some of the involved companies:
TAI/TUSAŞ - Turkish equivalent of HAL
TEI - Engine manufacturing and design company
TRMOTOR - Newly found jet engine design company
ASELSAN - designs, develops and manufactures modern electronic systems for military and industrial customers
HAVELSAN - software and systems company mostly active in the fields of C4ISR, naval combat systems, E-government applications, reconnaissance surveillance and intelligence systems, management information systems, simulation and training systems, logistic support, homeland security systems and energy management systems.
TÜBİTAK - Research Center that has hands-on applications on almost all fields I can think of. It has many branches.
ROKETSAN - not hard to guess their work from the name
Should mention a few names and give very short intros:
Temel Kotil - the CEO of TAI. An aeronautical engineer. Previous CEO of Turkish Airlines. Received his Ph.D in Mechanical Engineering from University of Michigan-Ann Arbor
Mahmut Akşit - the CEO of TEI. Ex GE engineer(10 years in R&D center). Received his Ph.D from Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute. Has very chummy relationships with GE executives. I remember his mentioning a head of GE engineering department was his roommate etc. He has many stories about GE that I don't have the time to tell here now.
İsmail Demir - president of of Defence Industries. An aircraft engineer. postgraduate from Michigan University and Ph.D from Washington University.
Reminder
Hürjet is the Turkish equivalent of Tejas;
TFX is, again, the Turkish equivalent of AMCA.
I will use three dashes "---" to separate posts. There is no order by subject. It's by date. If the text color is blue, it means I added that information(not originally in the post). So here we go,
---
(Aug 24, 2020)
Hürjet
FEATURES
- High AoA controllability
- Head-Up Display (HUD)
- Helmet Mounted Display (optional)
- Full authority, Digital Fly-by-Wire FCS
- State-of-the-art HMI, minimum conversion time to F-35 and TF
- Intra & Inter datalink
- NVG compatible (AJT, LIFT)
- Aerial refueling
- Carefree handling
- Embedded Tactical Training & Live Virtual Constructive Training Systems
- APU for autonomous operation also from austere airfield
ROLES
- Advanced Jet Trainer
- Lead-in Fighter Trainer
- Light Attack (Close Air Support)
- Red Aircraft
- Air Policing (Armed & Unarmed)
- Acro Team Aircraft
- Dimensions
- Wingspan 9.8 m / 32.1 ft
- Length 13 m / 42.6 ft
- Height 4.2 m / 13.7 ft
- Wing Area 24 m2 / 258.3 ft2
- Thrust 19,200 lb
PERFORMANCE
- Service Ceiling 13,716 m / 45,000 ft
- Sustained Turn 6.5g @ 15,000 ft <0.9M
- Climb Rate 35,000 fpm
- Range 2592 km / 1400 nm
- Payload Capacity 2721 kg / 6000 lbs
- Maximum Speed 1.4 Mach
- G Limits +8g / -3g
---
(Aug 27, 2020)
TFX development timelines and costs
Phase-I: Engineering development and preliminary design phase
- Cost:1,3 billion $
- Schedule:4/5 years
- Completion: 2021
- Cost: 7,3 billion $
- Schedule: 8 years
- Completion: 2029
7 TF-X prototypes will be produced
Roll-out ceremony for first TF-X MMU in 2023. First flight is expected to be done in 2024/2025
Serial production phase
- Commencement: 2029/2030
- Cost: 14 billion $
---
---
(Auf 27, 2020)
Ongoing infrastructure investment
TAI Wind tunnel center (It is said to be one of the most advanced wind tunnel of the World)
Operational:2022
Cost: 1,5 billion TL
Place: Ankara
Facility contains following capabilities;
- Big Subsonic Wind Tunnel
- Trisonic Wind Tunnel (Up to 5 Mach)
TF-X MMU R&D, Analyse and Test Building
- 3000 Aerospace engineers will work there.
- TF-X MMU will be shaped in this facility
- Super computers with 10.000 core each will serve in this facility.
- It will be operational in 2021.
TAI Composite Production Facility (Fourth biggest in World)
- This facility will meet %2 of World composite production
- 95000m2
- TF-X MMU fuselage composites will be supplied from there
- Industry 4.0 fully otonom production processes
- It will be operational in 2021
TAI-Tübitak Near field RCS test & analyse facility & TAI-Far field RCS test facility
- The facility will analyse/test critical RCS figures of aircrafts up to 25m length.
- According to information, There are 4 facilities that is in same level with the TAI’s RCS facility.
- RCS info has to be kept secret so this facility has serious importance to protect the key features of TF-X.
- It will be operational in 2021.
- Totally enclosed test facility
- EMI/EMC tests
TAI Lightening test facility
- Up to million Volt electricity will be able to given to platforms
- Hizal institute is charged to develop system
- Drones, helicopters and other fixed wing platforms will be tested there
(Oct 14, 2020)
The deals related with Tf-X:
- Tusaş-Artificial Intelligence Structures: The design and production of eight flight control rods and the determination of the company as the preferred supplier for the future production of 200 products
- Havelsan-TrMotor: The development and certification of engine avionic control units. In these systems, the local and national Real-Time Operating System (GIS) developed by TÜBİTAK BİLGEM will be used.
- TAI-Havelsan: Embedded Training, Training and Maintenance Simulators and engineering support (Virtual Test Environment, project-level software development, and cybersecurity).
- Havelsan MMU engineering team: (~500 engineers) are writing more than 20 million code of line softwares for Tf-X fighter computers(Source: Havelsan manager). (f35 has 24 million code of line software)
- TAI-Aselsan: Gallium-nitride (GaN) Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Radar, Integrated Processing Computer (Mission Computer), Infrared Search and Track (IRST) System (in front of the cockpit), Integrated EW Suit, as well as a Integrated Electro-Optical Targeting System (which is abbreviated as BEOS in Turkish and will have a similar function as the Electro-Optical Targeting System [EOTS] on the F-35), Helmet Mounted Sight System (HMDS, there is no HUD at the cockpit) and an Integrated Cockpit Display System (panoramic cockpit. Aselsan also is developing Integrated RF System (abbreviated as BÜRFİS in Turkish) for the MMU/TF-X. The BÜRFİS Project aims to increase the Technology Readiness Level (TRL) by developing critical technology elements with national means such as: Low Visibility Radar and Electronic Warfare Integrated Antenna Designs suitable for 5th Generation aircraft structure. Radar and EW Integrated Receiver/Transmitter Structures. AESA-based Combat Aircraft Radar Algorithms with simultaneous function capability. Broadband high-performance RF Components.
- TAI-Tübitak: The Integrated Processing Unit (IPU, a mission computer and abbreviated as BÜİT in Turkish)
- TAI-TrMotor: National turbofan engine (max.30000lbf class)
- TAI-BAE System: Consultancy and Engineering help for over all stealth design fuselage
---
(Feb 28, 2021)
Ismail Demir about the TF-X Current Status:
--> First Metal Cut was performed last week!
- TF-X Project is on Track, no hiccups to be expected
- Some of the Wind Tunnel Tests have already Started
---
(Mar 25, 2021)
The CDR of Hürjet is overlooked by Stirling Dynamics
Hard work and endless efforts with a great deal of team work finally paid off, resulting over 1700 pages of a critical design report. I feel like as if we have achieved to write a book called "introduction to trainer jet aircraft design&built 101". I am very proud to be a member of this magnificant team. Well done to all who is involved.
---
(Mar 14, 2021)
planned production capacities
#TfX= 24 aircraft/year
#Atak-2= 24 helicopter/year (T929 or heavy attack helicopter)
---
(Mar 14, 2021)
Temel Kotil:
Tubitak Bilgem is tasked with Flight computer of MMU.
---
(Mar 15, 2021)
TUSAS(TAI) have purchased a additive manufacturing machine which can produce 6m2 parts, this printer will be used to make Titanium bulkheads of MMU/TFX
They(TAI) are buying a 50.000 core new computer for simulations.
---
(Mar 27, 2021)
HÜRJET New Generation AJT’s CDR Phase Completed
The Critical Design Review (CDR) Phase of the HÜRJET, twin-seat, single-engine supersonic new generation Advanced Jet Trainer (AJT) and Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) was completed in early March 2021. According to original schedule the CDR Phase should have been completed in August 2020 (To+36...
www.defenceturkey.com
---
(Apr 10, 2021)
Mr KOTIL: "If Turkey fails to do own ejection seat, it's not possible to make national aircraft "
---
(Apr 10, 2021)
TF-X MMU Sub-systems
Ejection Seat: (?)
Canopy: Volo (!)
OBOGS: BioSys (?)
Landing Gears: Turkish (Alp Avition (?)) and an Italian institute are developing. IP rights will be owned by Turkey.
BURFIS embedded RF systems (AESA radar+ EW sensors): Aselsan
BEOS embedded E/O systems (E/O and IRST sensors): Aselsan
Smart glass cockpit with mission computers and AI pilot decision support system: Aselsan
HMDS: Aselsan
APU (Auxiliary Power Unit): TrMotor (Design-Development)
ATSS (Air Turbine Start System): TrMotor (Design-development)
Turbofan engine (30000lb class): TrMotor (Design-Development)
Missile payload: Roketsan/TubitakSAGE
---
(Apr 25, 2021)
from interview with Temel Kotil:
> 2nd largest wind Tunnel will be finished at the End of 2022 and cost a whopping 100 Million USD
> Power Consumption is expected to be 15 Megawatts!
TF-X
> He says 10 Billion will be spend and at least 5 Billion USD of that are for Engineers Salaries in 10 Years Time
- Even though he said 60 Billion for Program Cost. That might be too high.
---
(Apr 25, 2021)
60 billion $ budget includes R&D expenditures, technological and manufacturing investments(wind tunnel, lightning test center, composite factory etc), salaries of engineer and workers, prototype aircraft, price of 250 aircraft to be procured and life cycle costs of those aircrafts.
Fly away cost of serial production fighter is expected to be 80 million $.
---
(Apr 25, 2021)
Mr Kotil: Retired Head engineer of Eurofighter program came to Tusaş for Hürjet.
---
(Apr 25, 2021)
Mr Kotil: Pakistani origin British citizen experienced engineers joined to TfX development program. "Hundreds" of similar experienced engineers (British citizen muslims (?)) who took clearence from British defence ministry is coming for TfX now.
---
(Apr 25, 2021)
Total cost of TF-X project is expected to be between 50-60 billion $. This figure includes everything.
9 prototype +250 Fighters=25 billion.
Salaries: 5 billion $
R&D and investment budget: 5 billion $
Life cycle costs: 25 billion $
---
(Apr 25, 2021)
Temel Kotil:
"The development cost of the MMU will be around 10 billion $. The development cost of the T929(heavy attack helicopter) will be just under 1 billion $."
"We are developing Hürjet, T629(light attack helicopter, will replace T129) and T925(heavy utility helicopter) projects with our own resources."
---
(Apr 30, 2021)
Temel Kotil:
"A Turkish and an Italian company will make MMU's landing gears together. It will be indigenious and national. Intellectual property rights will also be in TR."
(TAAC established by the Turkish company TUSAŞ-Altınay partnership. Italian company Magnaghi Aeronautica. TO)
---
(May 5, 2021)
2 flight prototypes, 1 static testing prototype, 1 fatigue testing prototype will be constructed in the scope of Hurjet project.
---
(May 6, 2021)
Planned configurations for Hürjet:
- Jet trainer
- Lead-in fighter training (LIFT)
- Light attack (Close Air Support)
- Aggressor for combat training
- Armed and unarmed reconnaissance
- Aerobatics
- Naval version for A/C carriers.
---
(May 7, 2021)
Radio Navigation Equipment (RNE) and its subsystems (TACAN / DME / VOR / ILS / ADF), which are currently supplied from abroad for the use of air platforms, are being developed with ASELSAN's own resources and with the subcontractor ESEN, and the Critical Design phase of the project has been completed.
Within the scope of the National Combat Aircraft Program, contract negotiations have been made for Flight Control System Sensors and Helmet Integrated Indicator, and the contracts are expected to be signed and come into effect in 2021.
Within the scope of the contract signed with TAI, studies for the integration of the Miniature Bomb, Intelligent Multi-Relief and Laser Guided Bomb to the National Combat Aircraft have started.
---
(May 10, 2021)
There are some places which has been working on RAM for a while (10-20+ years, some more recent)
Tübitak MAM (Material research center)
Hacettepe U. - Aselsan JV
Gebze Teknik U.
Kimetsan (private company)
Some of the firms/institutions has done several works for air/naval platforms and probably they will also be doing RAM- Paint /Coating studies for TF-X.
---
(May 27, 2021)
TF-X calender.
2023 rollout, production of more prototypes
2023-2025 ground tests, production of more prototypes
2025 first flight, production of more prototypes ( I expect 6 to 9 prototypes will be produced)
2025-2028 air tests and integration and testing of advanced subsystems/equipment and weapons(National EOTS, BURFIS etc)
2028 Inıtial delivery of TFX block 1 and LRIP production (With F110 engines probably 1 TFX per month it might be even less)
2028+ Updates, capacity, ability improvement at system and subsystem levels, more weapon integration, and national engine integration. Reaching initial operational capability(IOC)
2030+ Delivery of the first TF-X block 2 with the national engine, the start of serial production(2 per month for ~10 years for 250 fighters), reaching final operational capability (FOC)
Projected airforce in 2040s
250+ TF-X of various blocks
An unknown number of unmanned fighter jets( This is not MIUS it is a real unmanned supersonic fighter jet. It will be announced in 2026 it will be similar to Hurjet in size. It has a similar schedule to TF-X and will serve with the TF-X as a manned-unmanned combo)
F-16 Block 50+ maybe some leftover 50s all nationally modernized close to retirement.
F-16 block 30/40s and most of the 50s retired/used for spares.
---
(May 28, 2021)
Under construction phase. One subsonic and one trisonic wind tunnel.
TAI subsonic wind tunnel will be the second biggest of the Europe.
---
(Jun 11, 2021)
Temel Kotil pointed out that the MMU consists of 20 thousand parts and stated that a ready-made engine will be used at the beginning, and then the engine to be developed by TRMotor will be integrated into the aircraft.
---
(Jul 1, 2021)
TfX air to air engagements section, 5 different items were listed in presentation.
- Internal gun
- Bozdoğan WVR
- Gökdoğan BVR
- Gökhan Ramjet (Meteor type missile)
- Mızrak (Spear) missile (?)
https://defencehub.live/attachments/60dd81f049344_auto_x1_colored_toned_light_ai-jpg.24745/
https://defencehub.live/attachments/60dd81f046c70_auto_x1_colored_toned_light_ai-jpg.24748/
https://defencehub.live/attachments/60dd81f0465b7_auto_x1_colored_toned_light_ai-jpg.24749/
(Jul 21, 2021)
Integrated Electro Optic System(called BEOS in Turkish) development project was signed by aselsan in 2018
---
(Aug 10, 2021)
Temel kotil:
18th March 2023
- First flight of Hürjet
- First flight of T929 (heavy attack helicopter)
- Roll-out of TfX
(All these events happening on 18th March 2023. Can you imagine?
)---
(Sep 7, 2021)
Ismail Demir has answered some critical questions on the TFX engine. He has stated that even though previously, we had some issues with RR on the production of an engine suitable for TFX, we are now in a position that these issues at present, are no longer valid. So the ball is at RR’s court. Going forward on the engine side he said there are options:
1. To jointly produce an engine with RR
2. To use an engine that is available at the moment. But there are none that will satisfy our performance needs.
3. To produce our own engine. In order to be self sufficient we have great emphasis on this.
---
(Sep 12, 2021)
Well, that is what "vanilla" AESA does. Our AESA is a little different. It has ESM and ECM capability which means it can be used to analyze the radar signals in the radar's frequency range and can be used as a jammer.
---
(Sep 25, 2021)
Defense Turkey: Sir, from the perspective of an aeronautical engineer, what do you think is the most challenging part of the MMU? Engine or avionics or something else?
Temel KOTİL: MMU is a total work. Our primary goal is to perform the first engine start on March 18, 2023. Our next goal is to take off the plane on March 18, 2025 and deliver our first plane on March 18, 2028. An airplane is like a living creature, neither easy nor difficult. We found and brought together people to do it, then we set up the necessary infrastructures, and then we do it like a normal business. It is not a miraculous job, but it requires labor-intensive, idea-intensive work, tears and sweat.
---
(Oct 3, 2021)
According to Temel Kotil the production of the first prototype for TF-X has begun.
Hürjet, T-929, TF-X, Göksungur.
TAI is busy.
Hope to see pictures in a couple of months of it on the production line.
---
(Oct 3, 2021)
2023 TAI
- TfX roll-out
- Hürjet first flight
- T929 first flight
- T629 (?)
- Air launched Göksungur (?) 2022
- Fighter drone (?)
- MIUS B1 First flight
---
(Oct 3, 2021)
Quite a few details on Hürjet.
- 4 different versions
- going to replace T38, F5 etc.
- initial 55, but expected over 100 Hürjets
- engine choice F404 due to single engine configuration, which EJ200 apparently didn’t have.
---
(Oct 19, 2021)
The MMU/TF-X Block-0, Block-I
(2029) and Block-II (2032) aircraft
will be powered by General Electric’s
F110 Turbofan Family (probably F110-
GE-129E version due to twin engine
configuration), and starting from
Block-III (2035) the aircraft will gain
true 5th Generation capabilities with
indigenous 35.000lb class turbofan
engines featuring stealthy exhaust
nozzles for low-observability.
---
(Oct 19, 2021)
Defence Turkey:
The MMU/TF-X will also have new generation features including Low
Ob s e r va b i l i t y, H i g h Maneuverability (to be better than F-16C), Internal Weapons Bays, External Weapons Carriage (for NATO and Indigenous weapons), Increased
Situational Awareness, Interoperability with AEW&C aircraft, UCAVs and AARs, Supercruise, Advanced Avionics for Sensor Fusion (5th Generation avionics suit), Intra Flight Data Link System (IFDL, to provide wide-band data-sharing [such as Radar, EOTS
and IRST data] capability during flight between TF-X aircraft as in the F-35 and F-22), Link-16, S e m i - A u t o n o m o u s Operation Capability (semi-autonomous aircraft will provide necessary feedback to quarantine mission success to the pilot via HMDS, the TF-X will feature a capability that will ensure that even if a pilot that has died, the aircraft would be able to return to base safely thanks to Artificial Intelligence capability) a n d I n d e p e n d e n t Operation Capability (no need for other A/C).
---
(Oct 19, 2021)
TF141 turbofan engine for TfX. (35000lb)
"According to unconfirmed information
that I obtained from our sources Turkey (TR Motor Power Systems) will soon
sign a contract with Ivchenko Progress from Ukraine for cooperation in the development of 35.000lb class turbofan engine (dubbed TF-141) to power TF-X aircraft."
------------------------------------------ THE END ------------------------------------
Phew.. I didn't wrote any of the above myself but reading through 92 pages took a bit time. These are what I deem as important announcements and updates about the project. But since I'm a newbie, maybe you should go to the thread read it for yourself. I've done quite bit trimming. There are very intriguing technical discussion about everything about the project. I learned a lot but didn't even scratched the surface yet. Apart from the posts that I copy-pasted above there is a new development that's not written above. It's been announced on 8th October that the integration process of the new AESA radar of ASELSAN to the AKINCI drone has begun. So we'll see a drone flying with an AESA radar for the first time. This drone will have AA missile and EW capabilities. Next year our F16s(Block 30) will begin to be outfitted with AESA.
(I hope the images load without problem)
Thanks for reading
abingdonboy
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It will be fascinating watching the TFX project, personally I have little faith that they will be even close to maintaining their timelines- to date all aerospace projects undertaken by Turkey have had European/US handholding (T129- Agusta Westland, T625- Airbus/CASA, F-16- Lockhead Martin). Turkey hasn't even built their own 4th gen fighter but thinks they can jump to 5th gen right out of the box? As many other countries can tell you you can't just leapfrog- even the Chinese learned this the hard way. Look at the difficulties Russia has faced in operationalising the SU-57 and Turkey thinks they can go from first fight to in service in 5 years? Erodgan really is a classic style over substance tyrant.
Of course there is also the looming issue of CAATSA which has hampered many TAI efforts on the engine front.
Of course there is also the looming issue of CAATSA which has hampered many TAI efforts on the engine front.
abingdonboy
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Nothing is finalised yet, GoI is talking to both RR and Safran for the 110KN engine JV
UnderFingy
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@rodeo I'd like to hear your perspective on this.
UnderFingy
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Saf
Safran too? I thought they backed out when India asked for full IP rights. Hope something good comes out of this deal.
Timelines may and will slip, imo. But Turkey isn't leapfrogging 4th gen fighter. Hürjet is going to the testbed for a lot of the homegrown technology. We will see if Turkey's aviation sector is capable enough putting Hürjet together. If she can't then we can guess the fate of the TFX. Good thing is we don't have to wait too much. Just 1.5 years for the flight of the Hürjet. No need to speculate much on it.
The situation with engines is more serious. The first couple of engines(it was 8 I guess) were already delivered. But if US does sanction Turkey and TEI can't produce a domestic engine on that class, then the project will look a lot like the ALTAY MBT project of Turkey's.
One other possible major issue is the titanium bulkheads. These pieces are so big that the stamping machines that could press them are possessed by a handful of countries. And they won't let Turkey to use their machines. TAI thinks they can build the parts with additive manufacturing. We'll see if they will succeed or not.
Whether they can build the thing or not I find the whole thing quite exciting. They're very serious and meticulous about it. If you're interested in this sort of things, I think you'll also find it entertaining.
Since 2013 Turkey's lira has been losing its value against dollar. But the last few years were especially very tough. Inflation started to get to people. The government agency is showing 20% annual inflation but in reality it's like 40% or something. And Erdogan is a goner. He has to get over 50% of the votes to be a president(with its ally). Currently his alliance can't even get 35%. And it's dropping over 1% every month. There will be 7 million young people who will be voting for the first time and only 11% of those are for Erdogan(according to the polls). And Turkey's economic problems are completely political. Not from some fundamental issue. When Erdogan is gone we'll see rapid growth again.
However, even though economy is really bad, all sectors are booming in terms of export. For the first time in its history Turkey will post above $200 billions of export(probably 220 or something). But the inflation is squeezing the middle class. Day by day they're getting poorer.
About the fate of the TFX program. I don't think the politics will affect it. Everyone, be it leftist or right wing, is very aware that the Western countries will sanction Turkey whenever they have slight conflict of interest. So the TFX project is seen as a very strategic asset. Furthermore, Turkey has a very complex defense budget mechanism. The companies aren't exactly funded by the state. There's an excellent piece about this subject(5 min read tops).
What is the actual defense budget of Turkey? I see many concurring numbers among statistics between foreign sources and the Turkish ones,...
Answer: I understand you in this. There are loads of confusion about this because most of the people who wants to know what a country spends on defense nowadays, even so called experts doing some crucial mistakes. One of the mistakes is too look into statistics from various websites, organizatio...
UnderFingy
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Yeah, Erdogan and his poor understanding of economics worsened the decline. It was wild reading about him refusing to increase the interest rates and proposing his own economic theories.
With upcoming FATF greylisting and CAATSA sanctions, the currency is probably gonna take a hit again.
And Erdogan throwing tantrums isn't gonna help if India gets exemption from CAATSA.
Man, I wish Indian politicians could do this. If Congress comes to power, I'm just gonna quit this forum because it's gonna be fucking depressing to see them neglect the military as they did before.
I've been following TEI for some years now and I thought TEI always had the blisk tech. Didn't know about the ToT in 2009. I was in high school back then and didn't know anything about TEI. I'm sorry for the false info. It was wrong of me to assume.The following link clearly states that TEI got the Blisk technology from GE under a Transfer of Technology agreement.
So it appears that TEI didn't develop this technology on its own. Regardless, point is TEI has Blisk technology, giving it a serious leg-up in jet engine technology, thereby taking them very close to their dream of designing a jet engine for a frontline combat aircraft.TEI HAS MANUFACTURED TURKEY’S FIRST INTEGRAL COMPRESSOR PALE AND DISC (BLISK) PIECE
Competing among the world’s leading manufacturers in aircraft engines, TEI h
About the avionics, I posted a long flood about the plane. You should find whatever info you need there.
FalconZero
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Damn! That's a pretty good summary. I just skimmed through it, to my noob self who doesn't have much knowledge about the Turkish project it seems a bit ambitious but your industry seems to be capable enough and have a good plan out and investment from the government, it has investment in every thing needed from wind tunnel, engines, ram coatings, ew suite, etc.Ok. I've been fast-reading the TFX thread of the defencehub.live and compiled an update flood about HÜRJET and TFX. All the posts have the timestamps.
First some info about some of the involved companies:
TAI/TUSAŞ - Turkish equivalent of HAL
TEI - Engine manufacturing and design company
TRMOTOR - Newly found jet engine design company
ASELSAN - designs, develops and manufactures modern electronic systems for military and industrial customers
HAVELSAN - software and systems company mostly active in the fields of C4ISR, naval combat systems, E-government applications, reconnaissance surveillance and intelligence systems, management information systems, simulation and training systems, logistic support, homeland security systems and energy management systems.
TÜBİTAK - Research Center that has hands-on applications on almost all fields I can think of. It has many branches.
ROKETSAN - not hard to guess their work from the name
Should mention a few names and give very short intros:
Temel Kotil - the CEO of TAI. An aeronautical engineer. Previous CEO of Turkish Airlines. Received his Ph.D in Mechanical Engineering from University of Michigan-Ann Arbor
Mahmut Akşit - the CEO of TEI. Ex GE engineer(10 years in R&D center). Received his Ph.D from Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute. Has very chummy relationships with GE executives. I remember his mentioning a head of GE engineering department was his roommate etc. He has many stories about GE that I don't have the time to tell here now.
İsmail Demir - president of of Defence Industries. An aircraft engineer. postgraduate from Michigan University and Ph.D from Washington University.
Reminder
Hürjet is the Turkish equivalent of Tejas;
TFX is, again, the Turkish equivalent of AMCA.
I will use three dashes "---" to separate posts. There is no order by subject. It's by date. If the text color is blue, it means I added that information(not originally in the post). So here we go,
---
(Aug 24, 2020)
Hürjet
FEATURES
- High AoA controllability
- Head-Up Display (HUD)
- Helmet Mounted Display (optional)
- Full authority, Digital Fly-by-Wire FCS
- State-of-the-art HMI, minimum conversion time to F-35 and TF
- Intra & Inter datalink
- NVG compatible (AJT, LIFT)
- Aerial refueling
- Carefree handling
- Embedded Tactical Training & Live Virtual Constructive Training Systems
- APU for autonomous operation also from austere airfield
ROLES
TECHNICAL DATA
- Advanced Jet Trainer
- Lead-in Fighter Trainer
- Light Attack (Close Air Support)
- Red Aircraft
- Air Policing (Armed & Unarmed)
- Acro Team Aircraft
- Dimensions
- Wingspan 9.8 m / 32.1 ft
- Length 13 m / 42.6 ft
- Height 4.2 m / 13.7 ft
- Wing Area 24 m2 / 258.3 ft2
- Thrust 19,200 lb
PERFORMANCE
- Service Ceiling 13,716 m / 45,000 ft
- Sustained Turn 6.5g @ 15,000 ft <0.9M
- Climb Rate 35,000 fpm
- Range 2592 km / 1400 nm
- Payload Capacity 2721 kg / 6000 lbs
- Maximum Speed 1.4 Mach
- G Limits +8g / -3g
---
(Aug 27, 2020)
TFX development timelines and costs
Phase-I: Engineering development and preliminary design phase
Phase-II: Critical design review and Prototype production/Qualification phase
- Cost:1,3 billion $
- Schedule:4/5 years
- Completion: 2021
In this phase:
- Cost: 7,3 billion $
- Schedule: 8 years
- Completion: 2029
7 TF-X prototypes will be produced
Roll-out ceremony for first TF-X MMU in 2023. First flight is expected to be done in 2024/2025
Serial production phase
- Commencement: 2029/2030
- Cost: 14 billion $
---
---
(Auf 27, 2020)
Ongoing infrastructure investment
TAI Wind tunnel center (It is said to be one of the most advanced wind tunnel of the World)
Operational:2022
Cost: 1,5 billion TL
Place: Ankara
Facility contains following capabilities;
- Big Subsonic Wind Tunnel
- Trisonic Wind Tunnel (Up to 5 Mach)
TF-X MMU R&D, Analyse and Test Building
https://defencehub.live/proxy.php?image=https%3A%2F%2Fencrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com%2Fimages%3Fq%3Dtbn%253AANd9GcTsDw-IjcRmin6aHjDa8cPV028Zx1qymVwAHAD_Px7wC7vE_2bB&hash=20c79a1b119d58fa27d5529f7dac1e32
- 3000 Aerospace engineers will work there.
- TF-X MMU will be shaped in this facility
- Super computers with 10.000 core each will serve in this facility.
- It will be operational in 2021.
TAI Composite Production Facility (Fourth biggest in World)
https://defencehub.live/proxy.php?image=https%3A%2F%2Fdefence.pk%2Fpdf%2Fattachments%2Fupload_2020-2-24_18-31-37-jpeg.608321%2F&hash=d23ce7274316dd13f86125d97c17866e
- This facility will meet %2 of World composite production
- 95000m2
- TF-X MMU fuselage composites will be supplied from there
- Industry 4.0 fully otonom production processes
- It will be operational in 2021
TAI-Tübitak Near field RCS test & analyse facility & TAI-Far field RCS test facility
TAI Fully Anechoic Chamber facility
- The facility will analyse/test critical RCS figures of aircrafts up to 25m length.
- According to information, There are 4 facilities that is in same level with the TAI’s RCS facility.
- RCS info has to be kept secret so this facility has serious importance to protect the key features of TF-X.
- It will be operational in 2021.
- Totally enclosed test facility
- EMI/EMC tests
TAI Lightening test facility
---
- Up to million Volt electricity will be able to given to platforms
- Hizal institute is charged to develop system
- Drones, helicopters and other fixed wing platforms will be tested there
(Oct 14, 2020)
The deals related with Tf-X:
- Tusaş-Artificial Intelligence Structures: The design and production of eight flight control rods and the determination of the company as the preferred supplier for the future production of 200 products
- Havelsan-TrMotor: The development and certification of engine avionic control units. In these systems, the local and national Real-Time Operating System (GIS) developed by TÜBİTAK BİLGEM will be used.
- TAI-Havelsan: Embedded Training, Training and Maintenance Simulators and engineering support (Virtual Test Environment, project-level software development, and cybersecurity).
- Havelsan MMU engineering team: (~500 engineers) are writing more than 20 million code of line softwares for Tf-X fighter computers(Source: Havelsan manager). (f35 has 24 million code of line software)
- TAI-Aselsan: Gallium-nitride (GaN) Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Radar, Integrated Processing Computer (Mission Computer), Infrared Search and Track (IRST) System (in front of the cockpit), Integrated EW Suit, as well as a Integrated Electro-Optical Targeting System (which is abbreviated as BEOS in Turkish and will have a similar function as the Electro-Optical Targeting System [EOTS] on the F-35), Helmet Mounted Sight System (HMDS, there is no HUD at the cockpit) and an Integrated Cockpit Display System (panoramic cockpit. Aselsan also is developing Integrated RF System (abbreviated as BÜRFİS in Turkish) for the MMU/TF-X. The BÜRFİS Project aims to increase the Technology Readiness Level (TRL) by developing critical technology elements with national means such as: Low Visibility Radar and Electronic Warfare Integrated Antenna Designs suitable for 5th Generation aircraft structure. Radar and EW Integrated Receiver/Transmitter Structures. AESA-based Combat Aircraft Radar Algorithms with simultaneous function capability. Broadband high-performance RF Components.
- TAI-Tübitak: The Integrated Processing Unit (IPU, a mission computer and abbreviated as BÜİT in Turkish)
- TAI-TrMotor: National turbofan engine (max.30000lbf class)
- TAI-BAE System: Consultancy and Engineering help for over all stealth design fuselage
---
(Feb 28, 2021)
Ismail Demir about the TF-X Current Status:
--> First Metal Cut was performed last week!
- TF-X Project is on Track, no hiccups to be expected
- Some of the Wind Tunnel Tests have already Started
---
(Mar 25, 2021)
The CDR of Hürjet is overlooked by Stirling Dynamics
Hard work and endless efforts with a great deal of team work finally paid off, resulting over 1700 pages of a critical design report. I feel like as if we have achieved to write a book called "introduction to trainer jet aircraft design&built 101". I am very proud to be a member of this magnificant team. Well done to all who is involved.
---
(Mar 14, 2021)
planned production capacities
#TfX= 24 aircraft/year
#Atak-2= 24 helicopter/year (T929 or heavy attack helicopter)
---
(Mar 14, 2021)
Temel Kotil:
Tubitak Bilgem is tasked with Flight computer of MMU.
---
(Mar 15, 2021)
TUSAS(TAI) have purchased a additive manufacturing machine which can produce 6m2 parts, this printer will be used to make Titanium bulkheads of MMU/TFX
They(TAI) are buying a 50.000 core new computer for simulations.
---
(Mar 27, 2021)
HÜRJET New Generation AJT’s CDR Phase Completed
The Critical Design Review (CDR) Phase of the HÜRJET, twin-seat, single-engine supersonic new generation Advanced Jet Trainer (AJT) and Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) was completed in early March 2021. According to original schedule the CDR Phase should have been completed in August 2020 (To+36...
---
(Apr 10, 2021)
Mr KOTIL: "If Turkey fails to do own ejection seat, it's not possible to make national aircraft "
---
(Apr 10, 2021)
TF-X MMU Sub-systems
Ejection Seat: (?)
Canopy: Volo (!)
OBOGS: BioSys (?)
Landing Gears: Turkish (Alp Avition (?)) and an Italian institute are developing. IP rights will be owned by Turkey.
BURFIS embedded RF systems (AESA radar+ EW sensors): Aselsan
BEOS embedded E/O systems (E/O and IRST sensors): Aselsan
Smart glass cockpit with mission computers and AI pilot decision support system: Aselsan
HMDS: Aselsan
APU (Auxiliary Power Unit): TrMotor (Design-Development)
ATSS (Air Turbine Start System): TrMotor (Design-development)
Turbofan engine (30000lb class): TrMotor (Design-Development)
Missile payload: Roketsan/TubitakSAGE
---
(Apr 25, 2021)
from interview with Temel Kotil:
> 2nd largest wind Tunnel will be finished at the End of 2022 and cost a whopping 100 Million USD
> Power Consumption is expected to be 15 Megawatts!
TF-X
> He says 10 Billion will be spend and at least 5 Billion USD of that are for Engineers Salaries in 10 Years Time
- Even though he said 60 Billion for Program Cost. That might be too high.
---
(Apr 25, 2021)
60 billion $ budget includes R&D expenditures, technological and manufacturing investments(wind tunnel, lightning test center, composite factory etc), salaries of engineer and workers, prototype aircraft, price of 250 aircraft to be procured and life cycle costs of those aircrafts.
Fly away cost of serial production fighter is expected to be 80 million $.
---
(Apr 25, 2021)
Mr Kotil: Retired Head engineer of Eurofighter program came to Tusaş for Hürjet.
---
(Apr 25, 2021)
Mr Kotil: Pakistani origin British citizen experienced engineers joined to TfX development program. "Hundreds" of similar experienced engineers (British citizen muslims (?)) who took clearence from British defence ministry is coming for TfX now.
---
(Apr 25, 2021)
Total cost of TF-X project is expected to be between 50-60 billion $. This figure includes everything.
9 prototype +250 Fighters=25 billion.
Salaries: 5 billion $
R&D and investment budget: 5 billion $
Life cycle costs: 25 billion $
---
(Apr 25, 2021)
Temel Kotil:
"The development cost of the MMU will be around 10 billion $. The development cost of the T929(heavy attack helicopter) will be just under 1 billion $."
"We are developing Hürjet, T629(light attack helicopter, will replace T129) and T925(heavy utility helicopter) projects with our own resources."
---
(Apr 30, 2021)
Temel Kotil:
"A Turkish and an Italian company will make MMU's landing gears together. It will be indigenious and national. Intellectual property rights will also be in TR."
(TAAC established by the Turkish company TUSAŞ-Altınay partnership. Italian company Magnaghi Aeronautica. TO)
---
(May 5, 2021)
2 flight prototypes, 1 static testing prototype, 1 fatigue testing prototype will be constructed in the scope of Hurjet project.
---
(May 6, 2021)
Planned configurations for Hürjet:
- Jet trainer
- Lead-in fighter training (LIFT)
- Light attack (Close Air Support)
- Aggressor for combat training
- Armed and unarmed reconnaissance
- Aerobatics
- Naval version for A/C carriers.
---
(May 7, 2021)
Radio Navigation Equipment (RNE) and its subsystems (TACAN / DME / VOR / ILS / ADF), which are currently supplied from abroad for the use of air platforms, are being developed with ASELSAN's own resources and with the subcontractor ESEN, and the Critical Design phase of the project has been completed.
Within the scope of the National Combat Aircraft Program, contract negotiations have been made for Flight Control System Sensors and Helmet Integrated Indicator, and the contracts are expected to be signed and come into effect in 2021.
Within the scope of the contract signed with TAI, studies for the integration of the Miniature Bomb, Intelligent Multi-Relief and Laser Guided Bomb to the National Combat Aircraft have started.
---
(May 10, 2021)
There are some places which has been working on RAM for a while (10-20+ years, some more recent)
Tübitak MAM (Material research center)
Hacettepe U. - Aselsan JV
Gebze Teknik U.
Kimetsan (private company)
Some of the firms/institutions has done several works for air/naval platforms and probably they will also be doing RAM- Paint /Coating studies for TF-X.
---
(May 27, 2021)
TF-X calender.
2023 rollout, production of more prototypes
2023-2025 ground tests, production of more prototypes
2025 first flight, production of more prototypes ( I expect 6 to 9 prototypes will be produced)
2025-2028 air tests and integration and testing of advanced subsystems/equipment and weapons(National EOTS, BURFIS etc)
2028 Inıtial delivery of TFX block 1 and LRIP production (With F110 engines probably 1 TFX per month it might be even less)
2028+ Updates, capacity, ability improvement at system and subsystem levels, more weapon integration, and national engine integration. Reaching initial operational capability(IOC)
2030+ Delivery of the first TF-X block 2 with the national engine, the start of serial production(2 per month for ~10 years for 250 fighters), reaching final operational capability (FOC)
Projected airforce in 2040s
250+ TF-X of various blocks
An unknown number of unmanned fighter jets( This is not MIUS it is a real unmanned supersonic fighter jet. It will be announced in 2026 it will be similar to Hurjet in size. It has a similar schedule to TF-X and will serve with the TF-X as a manned-unmanned combo)
F-16 Block 50+ maybe some leftover 50s all nationally modernized close to retirement.
F-16 block 30/40s and most of the 50s retired/used for spares.
---
(May 28, 2021)
Under construction phase. One subsonic and one trisonic wind tunnel.
TAI subsonic wind tunnel will be the second biggest of the Europe.
---
(Jun 11, 2021)
Temel Kotil pointed out that the MMU consists of 20 thousand parts and stated that a ready-made engine will be used at the beginning, and then the engine to be developed by TRMotor will be integrated into the aircraft.
---
(Jul 1, 2021)
TfX air to air engagements section, 5 different items were listed in presentation.
---
- Internal gun
- Bozdoğan WVR
- Gökdoğan BVR
- Gökhan Ramjet (Meteor type missile)
- Mızrak (Spear) missile (?)
https://defencehub.live/attachments/60dd81f049344_auto_x1_colored_toned_light_ai-jpg.24745/
https://defencehub.live/attachments/60dd81f046c70_auto_x1_colored_toned_light_ai-jpg.24748/
https://defencehub.live/attachments/60dd81f0465b7_auto_x1_colored_toned_light_ai-jpg.24749/
(Jul 21, 2021)
Integrated Electro Optic System(called BEOS in Turkish) development project was signed by aselsan in 2018
---
(Aug 10, 2021)
Temel kotil:
18th March 2023
- First flight of Hürjet
- First flight of T929 (heavy attack helicopter)
- Roll-out of TfX
(All these events happening on 18th March 2023. Can you imagine?
---
(Sep 7, 2021)
Ismail Demir has answered some critical questions on the TFX engine. He has stated that even though previously, we had some issues with RR on the production of an engine suitable for TFX, we are now in a position that these issues at present, are no longer valid. So the ball is at RR’s court. Going forward on the engine side he said there are options:
1. To jointly produce an engine with RR
2. To use an engine that is available at the moment. But there are none that will satisfy our performance needs.
3. To produce our own engine. In order to be self sufficient we have great emphasis on this.
---
(Sep 12, 2021)
Well, that is what "vanilla" AESA does. Our AESA is a little different. It has ESM and ECM capability which means it can be used to analyze the radar signals in the radar's frequency range and can be used as a jammer.
---
(Sep 25, 2021)
Defense Turkey: Sir, from the perspective of an aeronautical engineer, what do you think is the most challenging part of the MMU? Engine or avionics or something else?
Temel KOTİL: MMU is a total work. Our primary goal is to perform the first engine start on March 18, 2023. Our next goal is to take off the plane on March 18, 2025 and deliver our first plane on March 18, 2028. An airplane is like a living creature, neither easy nor difficult. We found and brought together people to do it, then we set up the necessary infrastructures, and then we do it like a normal business. It is not a miraculous job, but it requires labor-intensive, idea-intensive work, tears and sweat.
---
(Oct 3, 2021)
According to Temel Kotil the production of the first prototype for TF-X has begun.
Hürjet, T-929, TF-X, Göksungur.
TAI is busy.
Hope to see pictures in a couple of months of it on the production line.
---
(Oct 3, 2021)
2023 TAI
2023 Bayraktar
- TfX roll-out
- Hürjet first flight
- T929 first flight
- T629 (?)
- Air launched Göksungur (?) 2022
- Fighter drone (?)
- MIUS B1 First flight
---
(Oct 3, 2021)
Quite a few details on Hürjet.
- 4 different versions
- going to replace T38, F5 etc.
- initial 55, but expected over 100 Hürjets
- engine choice F404 due to single engine configuration, which EJ200 apparently didn’t have.
---
(Oct 19, 2021)
The MMU/TF-X Block-0, Block-I
(2029) and Block-II (2032) aircraft
will be powered by General Electric’s
F110 Turbofan Family (probably F110-
GE-129E version due to twin engine
configuration), and starting from
Block-III (2035) the aircraft will gain
true 5th Generation capabilities with
indigenous 35.000lb class turbofan
engines featuring stealthy exhaust
nozzles for low-observability.
---
(Oct 19, 2021)
Defence Turkey:
The MMU/TF-X will also have new generation features including Low
Ob s e r va b i l i t y, H i g h Maneuverability (to be better than F-16C), Internal Weapons Bays, External Weapons Carriage (for NATO and Indigenous weapons), Increased
Situational Awareness, Interoperability with AEW&C aircraft, UCAVs and AARs, Supercruise, Advanced Avionics for Sensor Fusion (5th Generation avionics suit), Intra Flight Data Link System (IFDL, to provide wide-band data-sharing [such as Radar, EOTS
and IRST data] capability during flight between TF-X aircraft as in the F-35 and F-22), Link-16, S e m i - A u t o n o m o u s Operation Capability (semi-autonomous aircraft will provide necessary feedback to quarantine mission success to the pilot via HMDS, the TF-X will feature a capability that will ensure that even if a pilot that has died, the aircraft would be able to return to base safely thanks to Artificial Intelligence capability) a n d I n d e p e n d e n t Operation Capability (no need for other A/C).
---
(Oct 19, 2021)
TF141 turbofan engine for TfX. (35000lb)
"According to unconfirmed information
that I obtained from our sources Turkey (TR Motor Power Systems) will soon
sign a contract with Ivchenko Progress from Ukraine for cooperation in the development of 35.000lb class turbofan engine (dubbed TF-141) to power TF-X aircraft."
------------------------------------------ THE END ------------------------------------
Phew.. I didn't wrote any of the above myself but reading through 92 pages took a bit time. These are what I deem as important announcements and updates about the project. But since I'm a newbie, maybe you should go to the thread read it for yourself. I've done quite bit trimming. There are very intriguing technical discussion about everything about the project. I learned a lot but didn't even scratched the surface yet. Apart from the posts that I copy-pasted above there is a new development that's not written above. It's been announced on 8th October that the integration process of the new AESA radar of ASELSAN to the AKINCI drone has begun. So we'll see a drone flying with an AESA radar for the first time. This drone will have AA missile and EW capabilities. Next year our F16s(Block 30) will begin to be outfitted with AESA.
(I hope the images load without problem)
Thanks for reading
It's clear that they are trying as much as they can to develop the tech in house, use temp choices in the meantime, similar to India but a bit more serious since despite our work on Kaveri, engine is nowhere seen to be a priority and lacks 'the national importance' aspect here.
Turkey has a defense infra, your drone manufacturing shows that they are capable of pulling of ambitious project and be good at it but still the whole timeline seems like it's very optimistic since most of the system seem to be either being developed for the first time or being imported.
In case of India, HAL is really lethargic like government bodies but they have developed tech some of which are being used on Tejas, like Fly by light, ram coating, EW suite going from MWF to AMCA, radars which are already being tested and have been operational, landing gears, avionics etc. So from Tejas mk1 to mwf to amca it was just a continuation of what they learned and slowly upgrading it.
Engine seems to only worry.
HAL has its own advantage on already developed tech and working on them while Turkey/TAI probably can take advantage from the clear backing of your government, investment and money sanctions and maybe some learning from Bayraktar, i see no reason why some engineers from that will be transferred to share their experience in the production of TFX.
Overall, it was interesting read and very informative. Thank You!
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Let's not kid ourselves here. The British have had some of the best aerospace companies in the world before they were seconded by the US and Russia. Even today, their propulsion technology is second to none. BAE Systems is still one fo the most advanced technology companies on earth.And they are consulting the British who made only partially made a 4th gen eurofighter structure of which is already fatigued.
What could possibly go wrong:biggrin2:
Turkey in smart to capitalize on the EU-UK rift. Although US is also currently against Turkey, pretty sure there are some back-channel discussions going on whereby Turkey ensures that American interests are met in the long-term while managing to stay independent off the European Union.
That being said, Turks will be heavily dependent on the British if this goes through as they don't hav experience in making fighter jets - except assembling F-16s the way we assemble Su-30 MKIs & HAWKi's.
The big milestone will be HÜRJET. We'll see if Turkish Aviation industry is capable of it or not. But there's a prevalent attitude of belittling others' achievements in this forum. They think these things just sprung out of the soil and there's no track record behind them. The TFX project didn't start after Turkey removed from F-35. It goes back to 2010. Turkey's initial goal was to have an Air Superiority stealth fighter to complement F-35. So the developments of the subsystems also aren't exactly new.
And can you elaborate on Turkey being heavily dependent on the British? There are hundreds of BAE Systems engineers working in Turkey, assisting the project but whatever work's been done the IP belongs to Turkey. Turkey was/is very upfront about it. For instance, we get help from Italian firm Magnaghi Aeronautica for the landing gear but the IP rights of the product belongs to Turkey. It's of utmost importance that for whatever reason other countries can't sanction any parts of the project and cause production stall. We took very painful lessons from our Altay MBT program. Won't do the same mistake again.
Well I will eat a Landing Gear if TAI TF-X rolls out in 2023. See the Korean's T-50 they made that but still got the Triumph Group to make their 5th gen fuselage for K21. Control Laws for fighter take lots of time and Hurjet is hardly intended to be a fighter. Then they get tested a lot to finetune. Then you get the AESA radar which needs to be flown a lot to optimize algos in supersonic testbeds. Then RAMs RAS on top of fighter aircraft composites , IR control material, supersonic nozzle with stealth. Then manufacturing technologies for bulkhead ,actuators, etc. Its like jumping 10 floors at the same time. Turkey's drone achievements are enviable and top class but supersonic manned fighters are an entirely different ballgame from turboprop uavs.
Tell me why will BAE guys will make something and hand over IPR to TAI no one does that if there is no strong business case. And then there is Know How to Know Why transition.
Your first sentence made me laugh. Thanks
I wanna make something very clear. The TFX prototype that will roll out(if) in 2023 won't be 5th gen. It will be a prototype that will run on its own propulsion for testing the ground systems, avionics, software etc. The prototype that will fly(if) in 2025, again, won't be a true 5th gen fighter. True 5th gen isn't expected in this decade. It will be a low-observability 4++ fighter jet.
Thank you for detailing the difficulties of a fighter jet. Hürjet is a supersonic jet. When Hürjet makes its first flight it will be equipped with a GaN based AESA radar. So Hürjet will be the testbed for optimizing the algorithms. Besides, the AESA radar was integrated to the AKINCI drone this month and it is expected to take flight soon. I know AKINCI isn't really a fast object but it will be useful to gain some know-how. The other problems you named are, of course, apparent to the engineers who's been working on them for years now. BAE engineers have been living and working in Turkey since 2017. And to answer your last point, as far as I know, they don't produce any hardware. They're there to provide technical assistance. The UK government issued "open general export licence" to TAI in 2017. Here's the link, https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...f-turkish-aerospace-industries-tf-x-programme
However, BAE's involvement with the project goes deeper. BAE Systems is actively recruiting engineers in both the UK and in Europe for TAI.
Despite, all the things I wrote, I'm not claiming the the dates are set in stone. But one thing is very important the Turkish Defense Industry, and that is speed. It's not a 9 to 5 job. And I think our defense industry is one of the best in realizing the given schedules. The timelines don't slip much. In 2018 the target flight date of Hürjet was 2023. In the In the last 2 years it was pushed forward to fly before the end of 2022. But few months ago it was revised back to fly in March 18, 2023. You see there's no slippage. That doesn't mean there won't be any. But it's going to mild. The CDR of the project was overseen by Stirling Dynamics. Here 1700 page CDR report; https://defencehub.live/attachments/img-20210305-wa0002-jpg.15398/
Turkey is no Iran. Our engineering is very much western oriented and solid. Granted, we need much hardwork and innovation to be one of the top aviation countries but we have the will, the infrastructure and qualified people to achieve what we aim.
Vamsi
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But still Hurjet is just a supersonic trainer, just because it has an AESA radar, it cannot become a fighter jet. A fighter must be highly agile, and I don't think Hurjet can be such agile aircraft , I honestly don't think it will even match the performance of the JF-17 "Blunder" in agility. Do you really think you people can develop a stealth bird after developing a supersonic trainer ?? U can do it only with external helpYour first sentence made me laugh. Thanks
I wanna make something very clear. The TFX prototype that will roll out(if) in 2023 won't be 5th gen. It will be a prototype that will run on its own propulsion for testing the ground systems, avionics, software etc. The prototype that will fly(if) in 2025, again, won't be a true 5th gen fighter. True 5th gen isn't expected in this decade. It will be a low-observability 4++ fighter jet.
Thank you for detailing the difficulties of a fighter jet. Hürjet is a supersonic jet. When Hürjet makes its first flight it will be equipped with a GaN based AESA radar. So Hürjet will be the testbed for optimizing the algorithms. Besides, the AESA radar was integrated to the AKINCI drone this month and it is expected to take flight soon. I know AKINCI isn't really a fast object but it will be useful to gain some know-how. The other problems you named are, of course, apparent to the engineers who's been working on them for years now. BAE engineers have been living and working in Turkey since 2017. And to answer your last point, as far as I know, they don't produce any hardware. They're there to provide technical assistance. The UK government issued "open general export licence" to TAI in 2017. Here's the link, https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...f-turkish-aerospace-industries-tf-x-programme
However, BAE's involvement with the project goes deeper. BAE Systems is actively recruiting engineers in both the UK and in Europe for TAI.
Despite, all the things I wrote, I'm not claiming the the dates are set in stone. But one thing is very important the Turkish Defense Industry, and that is speed. It's not a 9 to 5 job. And I think our defense industry is one of the best in realizing the given schedules. The timelines don't slip much. In 2018 the target flight date of Hürjet was 2023. In the In the last 2 years it was pushed forward to fly before the end of 2022. But few months ago it was revised back to fly in March 18, 2023. You see there's no slippage. That doesn't mean there won't be any. But it's going to mild. The CDR of the project was overseen by Stirling Dynamics. Here 1700 page CDR report; https://defencehub.live/attachments/img-20210305-wa0002-jpg.15398/
Turkey is no Iran. Our engineering is very much western oriented and solid. Granted, we need much hardwork and innovation to be one of the top aviation countries but we have the will, the infrastructure and qualified people to achieve what we aim.
I don't see any value in a "- I can. - No, you can't" type of discussion. But let me divert a little bit. Baykar(the company who makes TB2 and AKINCI) has been working on a drone called MIUS since 2013. It's a stealth, supersonic drone that's been designed to hunt fighter jets. Here's a CGI image of it, https://www.inceptivemind.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/MIUS-combat-aircraft-02-1024x683.jpg
It will do the first flight in 2023. Do you think it's doable?
(I don't understand why my images won't load.)
Well Best to luck to TAI.Your first sentence made me laugh. Thanks
I wanna make something very clear. The TFX prototype that will roll out(if) in 2023 won't be 5th gen. It will be a prototype that will run on its own propulsion for testing the ground systems, avionics, software etc. The prototype that will fly(if) in 2025, again, won't be a true 5th gen fighter. True 5th gen isn't expected in this decade. It will be a low-observability 4++ fighter jet.
Thank you for detailing the difficulties of a fighter jet. Hürjet is a supersonic jet. When Hürjet makes its first flight it will be equipped with a GaN based AESA radar. So Hürjet will be the testbed for optimizing the algorithms. Besides, the AESA radar was integrated to the AKINCI drone this month and it is expected to take flight soon. I know AKINCI isn't really a fast object but it will be useful to gain some know-how. The other problems you named are, of course, apparent to the engineers who's been working on them for years now. BAE engineers have been living and working in Turkey since 2017. And to answer your last point, as far as I know, they don't produce any hardware. They're there to provide technical assistance. The UK government issued "open general export licence" to TAI in 2017. Here's the link, https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...f-turkish-aerospace-industries-tf-x-programme
However, BAE's involvement with the project goes deeper. BAE Systems is actively recruiting engineers in both the UK and in Europe for TAI.
Despite, all the things I wrote, I'm not claiming the the dates are set in stone. But one thing is very important the Turkish Defense Industry, and that is speed. It's not a 9 to 5 job. And I think our defense industry is one of the best in realizing the given schedules. The timelines don't slip much. In 2018 the target flight date of Hürjet was 2023. In the In the last 2 years it was pushed forward to fly before the end of 2022. But few months ago it was revised back to fly in March 18, 2023. You see there's no slippage. That doesn't mean there won't be any. But it's going to mild. The CDR of the project was overseen by Stirling Dynamics. Here 1700 page CDR report; https://defencehub.live/attachments/img-20210305-wa0002-jpg.15398/
Turkey is no Iran. Our engineering is very much western oriented and solid. Granted, we need much hardwork and innovation to be one of the top aviation countries but we have the will, the infrastructure and qualified people to achieve what we aim.
Do post the RAMs developed by Turkish scientists in open domain if you can. Also do you know of any Turkish high temp blade material? if yes do post.
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I think Turkey can build the TFX but the timelines according to me are very ambitious .
They're ambitious for me too.
