Turkish defense industry news updates

[UnderFingy]

I think Turkey can build the TFX but the timelines according to me are very ambitious .

Yeah, same. They have the political will, the money, and a reputable company helping them. I don't see how the project can fail.

 

[abingdonboy]

Damn! That's a pretty good summary. I just skimmed through it, to my noob self who doesn't have much knowledge about the Turkish project it seems a bit ambitious but your industry seems to be capable enough and have a good plan out and investment from the government, it has investment in every thing needed from wind tunnel, engines, ram coatings, ew suite, etc.

It's clear that they are trying as much as they can to develop the tech in house, use temp choices in the meantime, similar to India but a bit more serious since despite our work on Kaveri, engine is nowhere seen to be a priority and lacks 'the national importance' aspect here.

Turkey has a defense infra, your drone manufacturing shows that they are capable of pulling of ambitious project and be good at it but still the whole timeline seems like it's very optimistic since most of the system seem to be either being developed for the first time or being imported.

In case of India, HAL is really lethargic like government bodies but they have developed tech some of which are being used on Tejas, like Fly by light, ram coating, EW suite going from MWF to AMCA, radars which are already being tested and have been operational, landing gears, avionics etc. So from Tejas mk1 to mwf to amca it was just a continuation of what they learned and slowly upgrading it.

Engine seems to only worry.

HAL has its own advantage on already developed tech and working on them while Turkey/TAI probably can take advantage from the clear backing of your government, investment and money sanctions and maybe some learning from Bayraktar, i see no reason why some engineers from that will be transferred to share their experience in the production of TFX.

Overall, it was interesting read and very informative. Thank You!

HAL isn’t the development agency for LCA or AMCA

 

[abingdonboy]

Timelines may and will slip, imo. But Turkey isn't leapfrogging 4th gen fighter. Hürjet is going to the testbed for a lot of the homegrown technology. We will see if Turkey's aviation sector is capable enough putting Hürjet together. If she can't then we can guess the fate of the TFX. Good thing is we don't have to wait too much. Just 1.5 years for the flight of the Hürjet. No need to speculate much on it.

The situation with engines is more serious. The first couple of engines(it was 8 I guess) were already delivered. But if US does sanction Turkey and TEI can't produce a domestic engine on that class, then the project will look a lot like the ALTAY MBT project of Turkey's.

One other possible major issue is the titanium bulkheads. These pieces are so big that the stamping machines that could press them are possessed by a handful of countries. And they won't let Turkey to use their machines. TAI thinks they can build the parts with additive manufacturing. We'll see if they will succeed or not.

Whether they can build the thing or not I find the whole thing quite exciting. They're very serious and meticulous about it. If you're interested in this sort of things, I think you'll also find it entertaining.

Development of the Hurjet is ongoing at the same time as the TFX though so it’s not like they are building on expertise but learning as they go- not the best formula for success.

I’m sure Turkey will get there as the will is there to the very top but add 6-10 years onto the final timeline IMHO

And Erdogan says they are going to order more S400s this will inevitably lead to more sanctions and US ire which will absolutely hurt the TFX project explicitly.

if Erdogan was smart he wouldn’t have created this entire mess, Turkey never should’ve ordered the S400, they’d remain a huge part of the F-35 and they could leverage that expertise into the TFX, the path Aer dog an has chosen has crippled the TFX from the outset, really bizarre.

 

[Vamsi]

I don't see any value in a "- I can. - No, you can't" type of discussion. But let me divert a little bit. Baykar(the company who makes TB2 and AKINCI) has been working on a drone called MIUS since 2013. It's a stealth, supersonic drone that's been designed to hunt fighter jets. Here's a CGI image of it, https://www.inceptivemind.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/MIUS-combat-aircraft-02-1024x683.jpg

It will do the first flight in 2023. Do you think it's doable?

(I don't understand why my images won't load.)

Can you post more details about that MIUS drone.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

Development of the Hurjet is ongoing at the same time as the TFX though so it’s not like they are building on expertise but learning as they go- not the best formula for success.

I’m sure Turkey will get there as the will is there to the very top but add 6-10 years onto the final timeline IMHO

And Erdogan says they are going to order more S400s this will inevitably lead to more sanctions and US ire which will absolutely hurt the TFX project explicitly.

if Erdogan was smart he wouldn’t have created this entire mess, Turkey never should’ve ordered the S400, they’d remain a huge part of the F-35 and they could leverage that expertise into the TFX, the path Aer dog an has chosen has crippled the TFX from the outset, really bizarre.

You should check out the Quora link he gave last page. It explains how Turkish Defence Industry is somewhat hardened against those sanctions. They seem to have the drive to push forward on the indigenization path despite a sanctions threat. Similar to the drive India itself magically develops when sanctioned. Sadly in our case, that drive gets diluted few years after sanctions are lifted. Looking at it, I almost want sanctions to be imposed on us as well. Would knock some sense into our import dependent military and bureaucracy.

 

[abingdonboy]

You should check out the Quora link he gave last page. It explains how Turkish Defence Industry is somewhat hardened against those sanctions. They seem to have the drive to push forward on the indigenization path despite a sanctions threat. Similar to the drive India itself magically develops when sanctioned. Sadly in our case, that drive gets diluted few years after sanctions are lifted. Looking at it, I almost want sanctions to be imposed on us as well. Would knock some sense into our import dependent military and bureaucracy.

Rhetoric.

let’s stick to the facts. Without engines a plane is scrap metal.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

Rhetoric.

let’s stick to the facts. Without engines a plane is scrap metal.

You should check out some of his posts regarding TEI. They aren't as far behind. Sure, getting from there to an engine is tough, but its not like the Americans are itching to put some sanctions on Turkey either. For them, if Erdogan goes out of picture and someone more amicable to American interests takes his place, Turkey is a good investment. GE has invested substantially in TEI, even going so far as to transfer blisk technology, including linear friction welding tech.

 

[SavageKing456]

You should check out the Quora link he gave last page. It explains how Turkish Defence Industry is somewhat hardened against those sanctions. They seem to have the drive to push forward on the indigenization path despite a sanctions threat. Similar to the drive India itself magically develops when sanctioned. Sadly in our case, that drive gets diluted few years after sanctions are lifted. Looking at it, I almost want sanctions to be imposed on us as well. Would knock some sense into our import dependent military and bureaucracy.

Our aerospace industry also too is getting mature tho,we've actually pulled off cutting edge projects like SWIFT,CATS infinity,1/3 of CATS warrior in prototype development phase and will be inducted into the military eventually(if they want), ACID software which has high degree of AI involved also is developed,there are many things going inside Newspace research&technologies,the company is doing very good job and is growing fast,now next year is the role out of Tejas mk2 which will be pinnacle of our Aerospace industry because lots of programs depend on it.There are few things we need to up ourself but see how far we've come from LCA,lots needs to be done ofcourse,but let's cheer for our successes as we criticize ourselves for failures.

 

[rodeo]

the path Aer dog an has chosen has crippled the TFX from the outset, really bizarre.

OMG. LOL. How old are you to get a kick out of these kind of wordplays?

2023 elections(or maybe even sooner) will be the end of Erdogan. Unless the opposition be very very stupid, he has no way of winning. And I strongly believe that we will get some F-35s in this decade.

The situation with S400 is a bit deeper. We have a desperate need for a long range SAM system but the USA has been denying the Patriot system for decades now. And when they made an offer it had an obscene price. The other issue was the technology of transfer. Whenever Turkey makes a big(over a billion dollar) purchase she demands some ToT. Any country worth the name will do the same. You're paying loads of money if the seller isn't willing to share some technology than you move your business elsewhere. Americans didn't want to give any ToT but Russians did. And it was cheaper. But you are right. Turkey handled the crisis very badly. It cost us a lot. We were a very integral part of the F-35 program.

Thankfully Roketsan's layered SAM development started to give fruits. We have 15km and 25km range SAM missiles entered service. In two years we will have long range S-400 like SAM. The ranges of the incoming two missile systems will be100+ km and 200+(?) km. So, we're covered on that front.

 

[SavageKing456]

OMG. LOL. How old are you to get a kick out of these kind of wordplays?

2023 elections(or maybe even sooner) will be the end of Erdogan. Unless the opposition be very very stupid, he has no way of winning. And I strongly believe that we will get some F-35s in this decade.

The situation with S400 is a bit deeper. We have a desperate need for a long range SAM system but the USA has been denying the Patriot system for decades now. And when they made an offer it had an obscene price. The other issue was the technology of transfer. Whenever Turkey makes a big(over a billion dollar) purchase she demands some ToT. Any country worth the name will do the same. You're paying loads of money if the seller isn't willing to share some technology than you move your business elsewhere. Americans didn't want to give any ToT but Russians did. And it was cheaper. But you are right. Turkey handled the crisis very badly. It cost us a lot. We were a very integral part of the F-35 program.

Thankfully Roketsan's layered SAM development started to give fruits. We have 15km and 25km range SAM missiles entered service. In two years we will have long range S-400 like SAM. The ranges of the incoming two missile systems will be100+ km and 200+(?) km. So, we're covered on that front.

Could you tell us anything about the eots system of TFX? If it has

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

Our aerospace industry also too is getting mature tho,we've actually pulled off cutting edge projects like SWIFT,CATS infinity,1/3 of CATS warrior in prototype development phase and will be inducted into the military eventually(if they want), ACID software which has high degree of AI involved also is developed,there are many things going inside Newspace research&technologies,the company is doing very good job and is growing fast,now next year is the role out of Tejas mk2 which will be pinnacle of our Aerospace industry because lots of programs depend on it.There are few things we need to up ourself but see how far we've come from LCA,lots needs to be done ofcourse,but let's cheer for our successes as we criticize ourselves for failures.

Don't get me wrong. Our defence industry is much wider in scope than Turkey's and its maturing leaps and bounds as well. What I am comparing is the lack of a consistent drive at the national level to indigenize these products. We still have sword hanging over ATAGS, etc. Till recently, we had inefficient departments like OFB to contend with. Our efforts at indigenization and modernization have not been full gear forward. Its as if we are sleepwalking into half these things. Yes current defence reforms are extremely encouraging and will be game changing, but there is still an import lobby lying dormant in our country. Worst case scenario: imagine what will happen to all this progress if some mahathugbandhan government comes at center post-2024. I would rather we be sanctioned than let those a-holes scuttle domestic projects.
Look at the Chinese, they achieved all that with their own solutions, however imperfect. Here we have forces sometimes acting spoilt because they are spoilt for choices. At least nowadays the attitude seems to be changing.

2023 elections(or maybe even sooner) will be the end of Erdogan. Unless the opposition be very very stupid, he has no way of winning. And I strongly believe that we will get some F-35s in this decade.

Even after a regime change, getting F-35 would be impossible, in my opinion. Lets see how it turns out.

 

[not so dravidian]

OMG. LOL. How old are you to get a kick out of these kind of wordplays?

2023 elections(or maybe even sooner) will be the end of Erdogan. Unless the opposition be very very stupid, he has no way of winning. And I strongly believe that we will get some F-35s in this decade.

The situation with S400 is a bit deeper. We have a desperate need for a long range SAM system but the USA has been denying the Patriot system for decades now. And when they made an offer it had an obscene price. The other issue was the technology of transfer. Whenever Turkey makes a big(over a billion dollar) purchase she demands some ToT. Any country worth the name will do the same. You're paying loads of money if the seller isn't willing to share some technology than you move your business elsewhere. Americans didn't want to give any ToT but Russians did. And it was cheaper. But you are right. Turkey handled the crisis very badly. It cost us a lot. We were a very integral part of the F-35 program.

Thankfully Roketsan's layered SAM development started to give fruits. We have 15km and 25km range SAM missiles entered service. In two years we will have long range S-400 like SAM. The ranges of the incoming two missile systems will be100+ km and 200+(?) km. So, we're covered on that front.

The situation with S400 is a bit deeper. We have a desperate need for a long range SAM system but the USA has been denying the Patriot system for decades now. And when they made an offer it had an obscene price. The other issue was the technology of transfer. Whenever Turkey makes a big(over a billion dollar) purchase she demands some ToT.

Yep, American tech will cost u ur life.

I wonder what wud the TOT be??.

Even for us Russians have only allowed for integration with western systems.
Otherwise, its hard to believe that Russians have given ToT.

Thankfully Roketsan's layered SAM development started to give fruits. We have 15km and 25km range SAM missiles entered service. In two years we will have long range S-400 like SAM. The ranges of the incoming two missile systems will be100+ km and 200+(?) km. So, we're covered on that front.

Again, I believe in Turkey's ability to build tech, time period here to seems waaay optimistic

jumping from 25km to 100km+ will be different + validating with hostile various scenarios will definitely make it 4-5 years worth of time

 

[rodeo]

Don't get me wrong. Our defence industry is much wider in scope than Turkey's and its maturing leaps and bounds as well.

I got really curios now. Can you share some technologies Indian Defense Sector is developing that you think Turkey has no active involvement or interest in it? I really would like to do research about the subjects and learn about it. I, hereby, don't imply in any way that Turkey has some technological advantages over India or something. It just seems like the topics you'll mention will be very intriguing subjects.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

I got really curios now. Can you share some technologies Indian Defense Sector is developing that you think Turkey has no active involvement or interest in it? I really would like to do research about the subjects and learn about it. I, hereby, don't imply in any way that Turkey has some technological advantages over India or something. It just seems like the topics you'll mention will be very intriguing subjects.

ICBM
SSBN
ASAT
BMD
SCRAMJET
To name a few. Indian Defence Industry already has active products in all these categories. Turkey doesn't. If we look deeper into it, there might be other areas.

 

[rodeo]

Could you tell us anything about the eots system of TFX? If it has

This is from the user "TheInsider" from defencehub.live TFX thread. He has a very consistent track record. He has sources in the industry. This is what he wrote in July 4,2021

"Turkish EOTS will use 1280*720/1024 MWIR and LWIR and maybe SWIR too. 1024*768 is already offered as a product. DAS is problematic as using 6x 1280*720/1024 with MWIR and LWIR sensors will create a huge amount of data to be processed. We will see. Aselsan is working on some really advanced shit. There are at least 4-5 years till the first flight of TF-X happens."

The project was signed by ASELSAN in 2018.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

This is from the user "TheInsider" from defencehub.live TFX thread. He has a very consistent track record. He has sources in the industry. This is what he wrote in July 4,2021

"Turkish EOTS will use 1280*720/1024 MWIR and LWIR and maybe SWIR too. 1024*768 is already offered as a product. DAS is problematic as using 6x 1280*720/1024 with MWIR and LWIR sensors will create a huge amount of data to be processed. We will see. Aselsan is working on some really advanced shit. There are at least 4-5 years till the first flight of TF-X happens."

The project was signed by ASELSAN in 2018.

Does Turkey have the IPR of the Focal Plannar Arrays that go into these IIR sensors?

 

[SavageKing456]

This is from the user "TheInsider" from defencehub.live TFX thread. He has a very consistent track record. He has sources in the industry. This is what he wrote in July 4,2021

"Turkish EOTS will use 1280*720/1024 MWIR and LWIR and maybe SWIR too. 1024*768 is already offered as a product. DAS is problematic as using 6x 1280*720/1024 with MWIR and LWIR sensors will create a huge amount of data to be processed. We will see. Aselsan is working on some really advanced shit. There are at least 4-5 years till the first flight of TF-X happens."

The project was signed by ASELSAN in 2018.

Thanks for the information!,it would be interesting when TFX rolls out honestly I have been a critic of this project but let's see maybe seriously Turkey could make the project a reality.
I would like to know about the hardpoints in tfx

 

[rodeo]

ICBM
SSBN
ASAT
BMD
SCRAMJET
To name a few. Indian Defence Industry already has active products in all these categories. Turkey doesn't. If we look deeper into it, there might be other areas.

ICBM - Turkey has no direct icbm development program. But we have a space program. ROKETSAN has been developing a micro satellite launching system and been testing the rocket in space. These are the achieved parameters so far,

• Solid-Propellant Rocket Motor with Thrust Vector-Control feature
• Aerodynamic hybrid control driven by Thrust Vector Control, and electromechanically controlled propulsion
• Multiple firings in space by the Liquid-Propellant Rocket Engine
• Precise orientation control in space environment
• Inertial Precision Navigation based on national sensors and a national Global Positioning System Receiver
• Capsule detachment in space
• Various structural and chemical materials and advanced processing techniques

the rocket is small. 100kg payload to leo. They will attempt launch to orbit in 2023. This rocket when used as a missile will yield over a 3000km range(estimated from the size of the rocket).
But we also have another rocket in development. It is said to have 1500kg payload capacity. This rocket is to be launched in 2028 for Turkey's moon mission. We're aiming to send a lander(or rover) to do a soft landing on the moon. So it wouldn't be entirely true to say we wouldn't have ICBM technology.

SSBN - we don't have any development on this.
ASAT - nope
BMD - this is studied intensely by ROKETSAN and will have a product after we completed our layered HİSAR SAM system.
SCRAMJET - before touching on this I should tell a bit about ramjet work of Turkey. We're developing a BVR AA missile called GÖKHAN. It will be similar to Meteor missile. Tübitak-SAGE has been working on this for a while and we have working RAMJET engine prototype. On May 13, 2021 Tübitak CEO announced that they fired this engine more than 100 times and it's going smooth so far.
As for SCRAMJET both Tübitak and ROKETSAN studying it. They're building the necessary infrastructure. But I'm not sure when we would have an hardware to show for.

 

[fire starter]

ICBM - Turkey has no direct icbm development program. But we have a space program. ROKETSAN has been developing a micro satellite launching system and been testing the rocket in space. These are the achieved parameters so far,

• Solid-Propellant Rocket Motor with Thrust Vector-Control feature
• Aerodynamic hybrid control driven by Thrust Vector Control, and electromechanically controlled propulsion
• Multiple firings in space by the Liquid-Propellant Rocket Engine
• Precise orientation control in space environment
• Inertial Precision Navigation based on national sensors and a national Global Positioning System Receiver
• Capsule detachment in space
• Various structural and chemical materials and advanced processing techniques

the rocket is small. 100kg payload to leo. They will attempt launch to orbit in 2023. This rocket when used as a missile will yield over a 3000km range(estimated from the size of the rocket).
But we also have another rocket in development. It is said to have 1500kg payload capacity. This rocket is to be launched in 2028 for Turkey's moon mission. We're aiming to send a lander(or rover) to do a soft landing on the moon. So it wouldn't be entirely true to say we wouldn't have ICBM technology.

SSBN - we don't have any development on this.
ASAT - nope
BMD - this is studied intensely by ROKETSAN and will have a product after we completed our layered HİSAR SAM system.
SCRAMJET - before touching on this I should tell a bit about ramjet work of Turkey. We're developing a BVR AA missile called GÖKHAN. It will be similar to Meteor missile. Tübitak-SAGE has been working on this for a while and we have working RAMJET engine prototype. On May 13, 2021 Tübitak CEO announced that they fired this engine more than 100 times and it's going smooth so far.
As for SCRAMJET both Tübitak and ROKETSAN studying it. They're building the necessary infrastructure. But I'm not sure when we would have an hardware to show for.

Good luck mate these things are very hard and took us two decades to build basic blocks though now we have moved on to next generation.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

ICBM - Turkey has no direct icbm development program. But we have a space program. ROKETSAN has been developing a micro satellite launching system and been testing the rocket in space. These are the achieved parameters so far,

• Solid-Propellant Rocket Motor with Thrust Vector-Control feature
• Aerodynamic hybrid control driven by Thrust Vector Control, and electromechanically controlled propulsion
• Multiple firings in space by the Liquid-Propellant Rocket Engine
• Precise orientation control in space environment
• Inertial Precision Navigation based on national sensors and a national Global Positioning System Receiver
• Capsule detachment in space
• Various structural and chemical materials and advanced processing techniques

the rocket is small. 100kg payload to leo. They will attempt launch to orbit in 2023. This rocket when used as a missile will yield over a 3000km range(estimated from the size of the rocket).
But we also have another rocket in development. It is said to have 1500kg payload capacity. This rocket is to be launched in 2028 for Turkey's moon mission. We're aiming to send a lander(or rover) to do a soft landing on the moon. So it wouldn't be entirely true to say we wouldn't have ICBM technology.

Indeed. Spaceflight help develop many of the technologies required for ICBMs. One important ICBM tech your current space program goals do not mention is re-entry technology. Mastering the materials required for that is no mean feat.
BTW, what kind of liquid rocket engine is Turkey building?

SSBN - we don't have any development on this.
ASAT - nope
BMD - this is studied intensely by ROKETSAN and will have a product after we completed our layered HİSAR SAM system.
SCRAMJET - before touching on this I should tell a bit about ramjet work of Turkey. We're developing a BVR AA missile called GÖKHAN. It will be similar to Meteor missile. Tübitak-SAGE has been working on this for a while and we have working RAMJET engine prototype. On May 13, 2021 Tübitak CEO announced that they fired this engine more than 100 times and it's going smooth so far.
As for SCRAMJET both Tübitak and ROKETSAN studying it. They're building the necessary infrastructure. But I'm not sure when we would have an hardware to show for.

Exactly. These are areas where Indian defence industry has expended substantial part of its might. Because such technologies are something not given by one nation to another. This is what I meant when I said India's defence industry has a much wider scope than Turkey's.