Skirmishs at LOC, LAC & International Border

[Kshithij]

There is one thing you are forgetting - oil. Muslims have the leverage of oil and we don't want to be the ones to first attack on a massive scale. If they do, then retaliation will be WW3 or Myanmar type. Before WW2 era, oil was limited in use and hence we must have settled things down before oil gained prominence. The mistakes of the past were too serious and now maintain silence till oil ends.

Vajpayee was also a coward who had asked for Indira's forgiveness for being released from arrest. Calling him as chanakya is most foolish @Screambowl

 

[Screambowl]

You should have done you back ground work better. Panchsheel agreement was valid for 8 years. It was signed in 1954 and China attacked India on 1962, after 8 years.

Yes well noticed, and when agreement lapsed ...
Chinese got an opportunity they took the land.

1970 they were again incorporated and accepted but 1987 remember Chola incident, the Chinese intruded and skirmish happened.

In 1948 Pakis got opportunities they took the POK

India got opportunity in 65 we did not take because of internal politics.
In 1999 India again got an opportunity, India did not take.


The point is they want land and they will take it today or tomorrow. India will keep narrating them the agreements.

There are 1001 reasons to escalate and then no agreement will do the job. As most of the border region with China is open and at many places LOC too.

You go there and sit, it's yours!! That's the Rule of Land.

 

[Chinmoy]

Yes well noticed, and when agreement lapsed ...
Chinese got an opportunity they took the land.

1970 they were again incorporated and accepted but 1987 remember Chola incident, the Chinese intruded and skirmish happened.

In 1948 Pakis got opportunities they took the POK

India got opportunity in 65 we did not take because of internal politics.
In 1999 India again got an opportunity, India did not take.


The point is they want land and they will take it today or tomorrow. India will keep narrating them the agreements.

There are 1001 reasons to escalate and then no agreement will do the job. As most of the border region with China is open and at many places LOC too.

You go there and sit, it's yours!! That's the Rule of Land.

Cho La skirmish happened on 1967. And remember that it happened on an independent territory of Sikkim. Sikkim became Indian territory in 1975 only.
1987 was never a skirmish. It was sort of Doka La standoff and had been brought down diplomatically.

Problem with India is that we ourself start preparing treaties instead of taking opportunity. But once a treaty is been formed and signed, you have to adhere to it unless and untill other party doesn't break it.

Unlike Pakistan, India has lot to loose if it becomes aggressor by dissolving the treaty.

 

[Screambowl]

Cho La skirmish happened on 1967. And remember that it happened on an independent territory of Sikkim. Sikkim became Indian territory in 1975 only.
1987 was never a skirmish. It was sort of Doka La standoff and had been brought down diplomatically.

Arrey Bhai the point you are not understanding. They are doing efforts to take on territory not to defend their territory. Irrespective of agreement in 1993, the Chinese say it clearly that the line is not demarcated. This is something which gives them opportunity.

Problem with India is that we ourself start preparing treaties instead of taking opportunity. But once a treaty is been formed and signed, you have to adhere to it unless and untill other party doesn't break it.

The babus game this is.
Secondly all the treaties have some lapse and other take opportunity of it.

There is no rule of pen that a treaty cannot be overrun or abolished. Its the personal interest of every country how they wish to take the treaty as.

Siachen was unoccupied region inside J&K and Pakis were preparing to take.

 

[indus]

There is one thing you are forgetting - oil. Muslims have the leverage of oil and we don't want to be the ones to first attack on a massive scale. If they do, then retaliation will be WW3 or Myanmar type. Before WW2 era, oil was limited in use and hence we must have settled things down before oil gained prominence. The mistakes of the past were too serious and now maintain silence till oil ends.

Vajpayee was also a coward who had asked for Indira's forgiveness for being released from arrest. Calling him as chanakya is most foolish @Screambowl

These kind of sweeping statements remind me of the language used by our erstwhile political masters. War is not an option, war will cause disruption of economy etc etc. Oil is a major factor but here we have to look at our strategic oil reserves. Some Google info tells me that Modi Govt fast tracked the construction of underground caverns of Strategic Petroleum Reserves Ltd. Most of initial oil import from Iran was diverted to sprl. We have around 20 days worth of oil today in which we can fight a limited conflict. And strategic oil capacity is bound to increase in future with more projects coming online. So oil is very much taken care off. Vajpayee had his share of mistakes. Handling of IC 814 & Kargil were one of them. But he did allow Pokhran 2 and held ground under US pressure. He also authorised Op Parakram after Parl attack but our millitary took 2months to mobilise. Due to which element of surprise was lost and Pak also prepared their front. And Int pressure led Vajpayee to abandon war plans. This laid down the foundation of Cold Start strategy in 2012. Also George Fernandes was one of the best Def Min we had in time. If Vajpyee is a coward wonder what is MMS in ur books. He was not only coward but a traitor of sorts. He dismantled TSD black Op divn built by VK Singh and hounded him like an animal. He was ready to gift Siachin to Pak. False reports of coup were planted in media to further demean army in the eyes of public. Col. Purohit and story of Hindu terror is known to all. Mistakes can be forgiven but treachery cannot.

 

[Chinmoy]

Arrey Bhai the point you are not understanding. They are doing efforts to take on territory not to defend their territory. Irrespective of agreement in 1993, the Chinese say it clearly that the line is not demarcated. This is something which gives them opportunity.


The babus game this is.
Secondly all the treaties have some lapse and other take opportunity of it.

There is no rule of pen that a treaty cannot be overrun or abolished. Its the personal interest of every country how they wish to take the treaty as.

Siachen was unoccupied region inside J&K and Pakis were preparing to take.

I've got what you meant to say and China too is not trying to take the territory by only military means. They have employed military as well and political means in doing that. Military is something which you do use as a last nail in the coffin, not the only nail. The biggest blunder India did in case of China is agreeing to the term that Tibet is an Chinese autonomous region and subsequently ceasing every clandestine operation there in.

Same is the case of India in POK. Simply saying that India should attack on POk and grab territory is not a viable option. What India is trying to do now is to show to world that no government does exists in Pakistan.Neither civil, nor military. So any sort of treaty with such a country have no validity. India has long ago shed its passive stature regarding Kashmir and is right now pursuing active stature.

Another prob we have in India is the though process of political parties and their dependency on one particular person.

 

[Kshithij]

These kind of sweeping statements remind me of the language used by our erstwhile political masters. War is not an option, war will cause disruption of economy etc etc. Oil is a major factor but here we have to look at our strategic oil reserves. Some Google info tells me that Modi Govt fast tracked the construction of underground caverns of Strategic Petroleum Reserves Ltd. Most of initial oil import from Iran was diverted to sprl. We have around 20 days worth of oil today in which we can fight a limited conflict. And strategic oil capacity is bound to increase in future with more projects coming online. So oil is very much taken care off. Vajpayee had his share of mistakes. Handling of IC 814 & Kargil were one of them. But he did allow Pokhran 2 and held ground under US pressure. He also authorised Op Parakram after Parl attack but our millitary took 2months to mobilise. Due to which element of surprise was lost and Pak also prepared their front. And Int pressure led Vajpayee to abandon war plans. This laid down the foundation of Cold Start strategy in 2012. Also George Fernandes was one of the best Def Min we had in time. If Vajpyee is a coward wonder what is MMS in ur books. He was not only coward but a traitor of sorts. He dismantled TSD black Op divn built by VK Singh and hounded him like an animal. He was ready to gift Siachin to Pak. False reports of coup were planted in media to further demean army in the eyes of public. Col. Purohit and story of Hindu terror is known to all. Mistakes can be forgiven but treachery cannot.

Mistakes for 50 years is a bit too much. When one must radicalise the people to ensure no foreign powers can send agents to buy people, Vajpyee did the opposite - tried to buy people by development. Development in India is impossible considering that India has limited natural resources which will be exhausted is used massively.

MMS was a traitor indeed. But, today we are in a world where long time build up is needed to develop military power and that means long term stability. In older days, even a 80 years back, war could have been started with limited infrastructure and build up. But, today one has to develop electronics, satellites etc which complicates things.

Vajpayee could not attack Pakistan as India would have then lost out to the rest of the world. It is not just necessary to destroy Pakistan but also USA. And a small patience of 10 years was warranted. What Vajpayee should have done is radicalise people on dharma and build ram Mandir. Externally, Pakistan has missiles and arms, but internally, India could have strengthened itself by building loyalty from True Indians.

The moat important thing in a country is loyalty of people and that happens only when the country represents a cause. No. One is loyal to markets where the best bargain is bought.

India doesn't need development in terms of consumerism but needs technology and exports only. Consumerism means slavery to foreign resources. Unnecessary buying of wasteful goods is not needed. We need roads, defence technology and defence technology only for ourselves. Vajpayee must have gone this way. Instead he went to buy people with richness.

People who don't have common sense and don't understand economics and defence like Vajpayee is responsible for UPA. Had Dharma been implemented without fear of war, India would have been strong by now. A country is not strong by protecting its people but protecting its culture. People can be bred on dozens by reproducing heavily. Vajpayee didn't do this

 

[Kshithij]

I've got what you meant to say and China too is not trying to take the territory by only military means. They have employed military as well and political means in doing that. Military is something which you do use as a last nail in the coffin, not the only nail. The biggest blunder India did in case of China is agreeing to the term that Tibet is an Chinese autonomous region and subsequently ceasing every clandestine operation there in.

Same is the case of India in POK. Simply saying that India should attack on POk and grab territory is not a viable option. What India is trying to do now is to show to world that no government does exists in Pakistan.Neither civil, nor military. So any sort of treaty with such a country have no validity. India has long ago shed its passive stature regarding Kashmir and is right now pursuing active stature.

Another prob we have in India is the though process of political parties and their dependency on one particular person.

What world? Damn the world. There is nothing called world government. Stop speaking like the media.

Political parties don't rely on one person. That too is media hype.

 

[Screambowl]

What India is trying to do now is to show to world that no government does exists in Pakistan.Neither civil, nor military. So any sort of treaty with such a country have no validity.

If they want to show that there is no government in Pakistan then what is Indian high commission doing there? Whom they talking to?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Related Articles ....

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[Chinmoy]

If they want to show that there is no government in Pakistan then what is Indian high commission doing there? Whom they talking to?

If you don't want one in Pakistan, then at the very first stop the Sikh jatha who does visit Pakistan each year for pilgrimage.

Indian High commission or foreign office in any country is for its own citizen rather then diplomatic mission.

 

[Screambowl]

If you don't want one in Pakistan, then at the very first stop the Sikh jatha who does visit Pakistan each year for pilgrimage.

Indian High commission or foreign office in any country is for its own citizen rather then diplomatic mission.

then just keep the counselor section lol why all
........................................................................................

 

[Chinmoy]

then just keep the counselor section lol why all
........................................................................................

Don't worry.... Once civil war starts in Pak, we would be the first to be out of there.

 

[Flame Thrower]

I feel like India is playing China not the other way around.

Now we all know that P5 can literally do what ever they want. No body can question them. Now, we also know that with great power comes great responsibility.

Now every P5 have their own satellites to protect. For ex. India is satellite of Russia. Israel is satellite of America. If UN decides to question India or Israel, Russia and US would VETO it. Sure that would come with a cost, but yes no matter what....Russia would protect India.

We need a classic example of misusing the power. Yes, every P5 does that and everyone in the UN knows that. But, we want everyone to realize and say "China! you had enough". It is like depositing your hard earned money as savings for future. We are making world to observe that China is misusing it's power. We shall encash it when the time is ripe.

Now why would I come to this conclusion.

What would happen if Masood is designed?

Nothing would have happened, Saeed is still roaming on the road, giving rallies. Nothing would happen to Masood as well. In Pak, people might have gone crazy.... rallies against UN might have started. A bit more action on LoC. But nothing major, in fact his popularity might have gone up.

What is the big deal with Masood Azhar? Yes, he is a Terrorist, radicalise people and send them across border to fight in Kashmir or plant bombs.

He is not the only one. Pak did this prior to Masood and won't stop after his death. This is for certain.

When we started this process, Pak wanted to protect him, the best way is to veto it from China. Yes, for once they had an agreement. It was on to hold. For China it is easy, China also got something in return. India failed, Victory for China, Victory for Pak. India did attempt again with the help of other P5 countries... India started to gain support softly, China put it on hold, an embarrassment for other countries too. Victory for China, Victory for Pak. This happened.one more time too. In the last attempt almost every country from security council group was with India and China rejected it. But there is the difference, China knows that it started to irritate others. Now everyone knows that China is protecting Terrorists. World also knows that China is feeling kind of heat from India. We are labeling ourselves as enemy to China. Yes, this has it's positives. Japan investment in Bullet train is just an example. Though lot had happened for Bullet train but I am sure that Masood Incident is also played it's role.

So raising Masood issue helped us, while tarnishing Chinese image. Sure this helps in improving our say in G4, NSG and maybe for considering UNSC too. Yes it is far-fetched, but you also need to build a case as strong contender. And one way to do that is have a strong enemy and make him look like he is scared of us.

If I am not wrong, then Masood or similar issue(with Pak or China; China goes against India in both cases) for clashing will come up in UNSC.

This just my speculation only....pls let me know if I miss interpreted the whole picture of Masood.

Sun Tzu: Sometimes we need to loose the small battles in order to win the war.

 

[Chinmoy]

As per all members here, who is afraid of tactical nuclear war heads of Pakis????

 

[Butter Chicken]

As per all members here, who is afraid of tactical nuclear war heads of Pakis????

Pak tactical weapon has range only 60 km,and when fired it can destroy only about 4-5 tanks per warhead when moving

India has made nuclear artillery shells which is far more dangerous

 

[Chinmoy]

Pak tactical weapon has range only 60 km,and when fired it can destroy only about 4-5 tanks per warhead when moving

I know that...... My simple question is, who in world market is afraid of Paki tactical Nuke warhead?

 

[Yggdrasil]

I feel like India is playing China not the other way around.

Now we all know that P5 can literally do what ever they want. No body can question them. Now, we also know that with great power comes great responsibility.

Now every P5 have their own satellites to protect. For ex. India is satellite of Russia. Israel is satellite of America. If UN decides to question India or Israel, Russia and US would VETO it. Sure that would come with a cost, but yes no matter what....Russia would protect India.

We need a classic example of misusing the power. Yes, every P5 does that and everyone in the UN knows that. But, we want everyone to realize and say "China! you had enough". It is like depositing your hard earned money as savings for future. We are making world to observe that China is misusing it's power. We shall encash it when the time is ripe.

Now why would I come to this conclusion.

What would happen if Masood is designed?

Nothing would have happened, Saeed is still roaming on the road, giving rallies. Nothing would happen to Masood as well. In Pak, people might have gone crazy.... rallies against UN might have started. A bit more action on LoC. But nothing major, in fact his popularity might have gone up.

What is the big deal with Masood Azhar? Yes, he is a Terrorist, radicalise people and send them across border to fight in Kashmir or plant bombs.

He is not the only one. Pak did this prior to Masood and won't stop after his death. This is for certain.

When we started this process, Pak wanted to protect him, the best way is to veto it from China. Yes, for once they had an agreement. It was on to hold. For China it is easy, China also got something in return. India failed, Victory for China, Victory for Pak. India did attempt again with the help of other P5 countries... India started to gain support softly, China put it on hold, an embarrassment for other countries too. Victory for China, Victory for Pak. This happened.one more time too. In the last attempt almost every country from security council group was with India and China rejected it. But there is the difference, China knows that it started to irritate others. Now everyone knows that China is protecting Terrorists. World also knows that China is feeling kind of heat from India. We are labeling ourselves as enemy to China. Yes, this has it's positives. Japan investment in Bullet train is just an example. Though lot had happened for Bullet train but I am sure that Masood Incident is also played it's role.

So raising Masood issue helped us, while tarnishing Chinese image. Sure this helps in improving our say in G4, NSG and maybe for considering UNSC too. Yes it is far-fetched, but you also need to build a case as strong contender. And one way to do that is have a strong enemy and make him look like he is scared of us.

If I am not wrong, then Masood or similar issue(with Pak or China; China goes against India in both cases) for clashing will come up in UNSC.

This just my speculation only....pls let me know if I miss interpreted the whole picture of Masood.

Sun Tzu: Sometimes we need to loose the small battles in order to win the war.

This is so complicated. I think matters are much simpler.

1) China thinks India is weak. What's India going to do if it vetoes the sanction? What "feeling the heat" do you mean - what's India going to do?
2) China needs economic favours from iron brother Porkistan. For a small favour like Masood Azhar veto, it gets huge $$$ deals into Paki companies and infrastructure.
3) Pakistan is stupid and desperate, it wants to rub India's nose in embarrassment. They think this is "victory" - when it is not.
4) Whether Azhar gets designated as a terrorist or not is immaterial - this is a 3-way war of egos.

Nobody cares about perception on the world stage - when will Indians learn this? Might is right. If you have money and muscle, you are moral - that is the whole of the law in the Kali Yuga. China epitomises this. It doesn't care about Pakistan and cares even less about India - it's a greedy, corrupt and completely degenerate regime dedicated to enriching itself and keeping power.

 

[Kshithij]

I know that...... My simple question is, who in world market is afraid of Paki tactical Nuke warhead?

This will lead massive war and Pakistan itself must be afraid

 

[indus]

As per all members here, who is afraid of tactical nuclear war heads of Pakis????

Nobody is afraid of Paki TNWs. They are Pak's best counter to India's Cold start. And India's counter to TNWs is available in our nuke doctrine. That any nuclear attack on Indian millitary on Indian or Foreign soil will be considered as a nuclear attack on India irrespective of yield. Secondly India may also use nuke preemptively if it feels adversary may be planning a nuclear trigger. This is what Parrikar hinted as it is not mentioned anywhere on paper...