Skirmishs at LOC, LAC & International Border

[delbruky]

@Nanjesh Patel @aditya10r @aditya g Pardon my ignorance and with due respect to the men and women of the paramilitary and the army at guard, I believe wasting 9000 mortars and small arms ammo proportionally on a bunch of neanderthal goat F***ers aka pak army is a bit sub optimal.

Either the forces are not using the ammo tactfully i.e. using it in the heat of the moment in really difficult circumstances by carpet bombing OR the explosives in the mortar isn't good enough for a fire assault OR the delivery accuracy of the equipment is very primitive.
I believe all the parties viz the bsf, drdo and ofb need to step up their game. Replenishing and maintaining so much ammo in the supply chain is arduous.

 

[pankaj nema]

@Nanjesh Patel @aditya10r @aditya g Pardon my ignorance and with due respect to the men and women of paramilitary and army guarding the borders at all times, I believe wasting 9000 mortars and small arms ammo proportionally on a bunch of neanderthal goat F***ers aka pak army is sub optimal.

Either the forces are not using the ammo tactfully i.e. using it in the heat of the moment OR the explosives in the mortar isn't good enough for a fire assault OR the delivery accuracy of the equipment is very primitive.
I believe all the parties viz the bsf, drdo and ofb need to step up their game. Replenishing and maintaining so much ammo in the supply chain is arduous.

SO in your opinion what should we be doing

This is only way to drill some sense in their heads

By the way 20 years ago we fired 3 Lakh shells in kargil war in
just 60 days

Today our economy is SIX times bigger than what it was during Kargil war

And Forex reserves some 12 Times larger than in 1999

 

[delbruky]

SO in your opinion what should we be doing

This is only way to drill some sense in their heads

By the way 20 years ago we fired 3 Lakh shells in kargil war in
just 60 days

Today our economy is SIX times bigger than what it was during Kargil war

It's not about the economy it's about maintaining supply chain, can we manufacture and resupply shells at the same rate we spent during the those four days??. Even if we can manufacture what if a supply bottleneck props up.
In my opinion The explosive in the mortar or the shells is neither able penetrate the bunker walls nor able maintain high temperatures for extended periods nor able to suck all the oxygen out. All this is coupled with poor projectile capability. Some shells do but not all of them.
so really it's a three step process 1.) use HE explosives (if possible) 2.) Improve targeting and strike accuracy 3.) Use a miniature version of Swati radar or just deploy more Swati radars

 

[pankaj nema]

It's not about the economy it's about maintaining supply chain, can we manufacture and resupply shells at the same rate we spent during the those four days??. Even if we can manufacture what if a supply bottleneck props up.
In my opinion The explosive in the mortar or the shells is neither able penetrate the bunker walls nor able maintain high temperatures for extended periods nor able to suck all the oxygen out. All this is coupled with poor projectile capability. Some shells do but not all of them.
so really it's a three step process 1.) use HE explosives (if possible) 2.) Improve targeting and strike accuracy 3.) Use a miniature version of Swati radar or just deploy more Swati radars

This Mortar firing was spread over a very large area
And 120 mm mortars are also quite destructive

Some Pakistani rangers must have been caught in the open

We are also using Air Burst Shells

Every body cannot be in a Bunker 24/7

Secondly unless their civilians are killed and their villages destoyed they will Not stop firing

And when we really need to use Big calibers ; we will use them too

To say that Either use 155mm or do nothing is not the right policy

On LOC we are using ATGMs and other Bigger calibre weapons to target their posts and bunkers

 

[hit&run]

Lol Infantry should be equiped like SFs.

Night Vision for all the the infantry.

Tanks not needed.

Risk Gunships to tackle infiltration and small arms Skirmishes including mortar firing then to give big boost to Pakistani propaganda in case of a hit.

Conveniently change land scape to fit strategy that neither the doctrine nor visible on ground.

To much video games.

 

[The Ultranationalist]

WTF???
Are they surrendering to goat fucking tribe from Khyber-pashtun area?

Goat fuckers surendering to goat fuckers:biggrin2:

 

[devhensh]

@Nanjesh Patel @aditya10r @aditya g Pardon my ignorance and with due respect to the men and women of the paramilitary and the army at guard, I believe wasting 9000 mortars and small arms ammo proportionally on a bunch of neanderthal goat F***ers aka pak army is a bit sub optimal.

Either the forces are not using the ammo tactfully i.e. using it in the heat of the moment in really difficult circumstances by carpet bombing OR the explosives in the mortar isn't good enough for a fire assault OR the delivery accuracy of the equipment is very primitive.
I believe all the parties viz the bsf, drdo and ofb need to step up their game. Replenishing and maintaining so much ammo in the supply chain is arduous.

That is the reason, i posted twice that we should be using GPS Guided Precision 120mm and other mortars, if possible...As far as my knowledge IA/ BSF don't have these yet....but this weapon system can be a force multiplier, in the type of conflict going on currently...
http://www.kbptula.ru/en/productions/artillery-guided-weapon-systems/gran

 

[Project Dharma]

That is the reason, i posted twice that we should be using GPS Guided Precision 120mm and other mortars, if possible...As far as my knowledge IA/ BSF don't have these yet....but this weapon system can be a force multiplier, in the type of conflict going on currently...
http://www.kbptula.ru/en/productions/artillery-guided-weapon-systems/gran

I think @Bornubus pointed out that the three tiered bunkers of both sides are invulnerable to mortars of this caliber. I think right now both sides are just blatantly destroying infrastructure and targeting civilians who live close to the border. It's in effect, a dick measuring contest.

 

[Anikastha]

Goat fuckers surendering to goat fuckers:biggrin2:

Seriously these fuckers can't fight an tribal clan with rusty Kalashnikov unless F-16 are flying over head.

 

[devhensh]

I think @Bornubus pointed out that the three tiered bunkers of both sides are invulnerable to mortars of this caliber. I think right now both sides are just blatantly destroying infrastructure and targeting civilians who live close to the border. It's in effect, a dick measuring contest.

As per my knowledge, there are specialized rounds and techniques to destroy reinforced targets....forward this vedio till 5.18, and watch.......

It specifically says " To destroy reinforced targets several mortars fire together, while the target is illuminated by one Laser designator"....All shells impact at the same time same place...resulting in penetration and massive destruction !!!

Something similar is achieved by the " Time on Target Digital Fire Control" of some 155mm systems, whereby multiple shells are fired within 15 secs and they impact same place same time, to destroy reinforced targets...

if 155mm can do it 120mm too (i know 155mm Arti is much more effective over a wider range, but we have to keep the escalation part in mind) ....

 

[devhensh]

On a diffrent topic of use of Helicopter Gunships on LOC.....

Although, i am a big advocate of Army Aviation getting charge of all Helicopter Gunships, i think IA knows, that the mountains of Kashmir and LOC is not a place to use them, unless as a very last resort....

That's because the PAK Army has huge stocks of STINGERS which is one of the best MANPADS (US wanted to arm the Mujahideens against Russians and ISI simply stole them).....

Stingers were very very effective against the soviet
MI-24(called HIND) heavily armoured gunships, in similar terrain of mountains of Afghanistan....This changed the outcome of that war !!!

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_.../stingers_stingers_whos_got_the_stingers.html

 

[Bornubus]

I think @Bornubus pointed out that the three tiered bunkers of both sides are invulnerable to mortars of this caliber. I think right now both sides are just blatantly destroying infrastructure and targeting civilians who live close to the border. It's in effect, a dick measuring contest.

9,000 shells by BSF in 4 days (Claim)

 

[Mikesingh]

In my opinion The explosive in the mortar or the shells is neither able penetrate the bunker walls nor able maintain high temperatures for extended periods nor able to suck all the oxygen out. All this is coupled with poor projectile capability. Some shells do but not all of them.
so really it's a three step process 1.) use HE explosives (if possible) 2.) Improve targeting and strike accuracy 3.) Use a miniature version of Swati radar or just deploy more Swati radars

Firstly, mortar shells do not 'suck out' oxygen, Those that do are called thermobaric bombs/warheads/weapons or FAE (Fuel Air Explosives) which we are not using.

Secondly, mortars and artillery are basically area weapons and do not fire PGMs (Precision Guided Munitions). There's a world of a difference between the two. And we aren't using PGMs on the LoC - as yet. OPs (Observation posts) both static and airborne (Air OP) are used to observe fall of shot and issue corrections. The SWATI radar in its secondary role, can also track and observe the fall of shot from friendly guns and provide fire corrections to counter-battery fire.

Thirdly, mortar and arty rounds we're plastering the Pakis with are HE with a sprinkling of smoke and illuminating rounds too.

Fourthly, SWATI radars are designed to be configured with artillery 120mm/122mm/105 IFG/105 LFG, etc and not with infantry 81mm mortars as yet which the BSF is also using.

Fifthly, what exactly do you mean by 'miniaturization' of the SWATI radar? Considering the robust design and radar array having a detection range for large caliber artillery rounds up to 30 km, increasing up to 40 km for unguided rockets, this is the best config achieved so far. Any smaller and you'll lose the range detection advantage considerably.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

It can, what it cannot is 51mm mortars ..

BSF has asked for mortars specific detection and counter suit sometime back ..

Fourthly, SWATI radars are designed to be configured with artillery 120mm/122mm/105 IFG/105 LFG, etc and not with infantry 81mm mortars as yet which the BSF is also using.

Fifthly, what exactly do you mean by 'miniaturization' of the SWATI radar? Considering the robust design and radar array having a detection range for large caliber artillery rounds up to 30 km, increasing up to 40 km for unguided rockets, this is the best config achieved so far. Any smaller and you'll lose the range detection advantage considerably.

 

[Mikesingh]

It can, what it cannot is 51mm mortars ..

BSF has asked for mortars specific detection and counter suit sometime back ..

Yep! That's what I meant in my post above. The SWATI can be used with 81mm mortars but not as yet. The process is on. As to how long that'll take is anybody's guess.

 

[nongaddarliberal]

Seems very quiet here. Have they suddenly stopped fighting at the border and LOC? Disappointing. We're back to the status quo. Again.

 

[Immanuel]

What is the flying time between Rajouri and Uri?

What is the flying time between Jammu and Rajouri poonch?

How many bases can sustain heavy attack heli logistics?

How many places on LAC have the roads to take the tank?

How many places can you have a tank battle in?

Please answer Mr Expert..educate me.

Also let me know the calculations of having the number of attack helis in loc.

I hope you know the difference between loc and ib.

Flying time is very small calculation to consider when deciding how many assets are required for a sustained conventional conflict over a LOC of roughly 740 km. Before asking me any more questions, how about you justify having only 5 heavy attack helos for ops long a 740 km LOC. Also in an current scenario of unconventional tit for tat, we don't use heavy attack helos to begin with. Heavy helos would only be used when there is a direct and vertical escalation, we aren't there yet. You seem to be shockingly unaware of IA's basic doctrine.

Tanks are not limited by availability of roads (you seriosuly need to read up where a tank can really go), they have these things called 'tracks' which allow them to go a lot of places where there aren't any roads

There are plenty of regions in and around the Indian subcontinent where a respectable tank battle can take place, as they have in the past. You also seem to shockingly limited in your thinking of where a skirmish or battle can take place. Tanks and APCs can be easily landed on a beach in Pak or any of Chinese controlled yet 'disputed' islands around South China Sea. Why do you think IN bought the INS Jalashwa or is in the process of buying 4 LPDs?

Just because a tank hasn't been used in war since 1971 doesn't make them useless in this day and age. The last time a SAM was fired to shoot down an aircraft was perhaps in the same time, the last time IAF shot down anything was in 1999, by your logic since we haven't used something for a while, might as well stop wasting money on fighters, SAMs, etc.

As said, you are only making a worse fool of your self, stick to SF related topics. Strategy and general know how on military doctrine is not your thing.

 

[Avenger01]

Army jawan Naik Jagdish, who sustained injuries in a Pak ceasefire violation on Jan 20, succumbed to his injuries today. He was 34. Survived by wife Usha Devi and 2 young children.

 

[Immanuel]

That would mean 30% of all government spending would go to defence, as our tax to GDP ratio itself is only around 15%. We will not even reach a 10 trillion dollar economy with such a budget. One solution is to increase the tax to GDP ratio itself, into 27-30%. Then it would be easy to have a defence budget of 4-5% of GDP.

True, for a 5% of GDP defence budget, tax to GDP ratio would need to be increased to 30%. Besides, at one point in the future it would become inevitable, at the moment, they seem to be underestimating how much these things will cost in the future. Even a gradual ramp up would be good start, with the next 3 years at 3% of GDP and the following 3 years at 4% and by 2025/27 getting to 5% of GDP. There will be some serious expenses coming our way around 2030-2040.

 

[Immanuel]

All this nonsense about NASR is BS, Cold Start is an old doctrine which evolved into something else when Gen V.K singh came in.

Paki's think NASR is a detterent to any kind of war itself but that is not true. For some here to think NASR will prevent IA from choosing to fight on it's own terms of vertical escalation is stupidity. IA is fully prepared, there is no fear among the Strike Corps of the Puki NASR. Moreso, people here seem to think an all out conventional war today would somehow lead to Puki nukes falling into wrong hands etc. All their strategic sites are under constant 24/7 visual & eletronic observation, IA, IAF and IN along with Russian, US are on onboard with this monitoring process and these are prime targets for Tier-1 raids, deep strike bombing raids etc.