Project-75I class SSK Submarines

[BON PLAN]

At this stage, i do not think that it is good going for Project 75I. It is too late now. we should study primary designs of submarines available should go ahead with consultancy and where ever required technology transfer. After building Scorpene class, what else are we going to get additional? We have developed our own AIP as well. We have state of art Sonar, Decoys, heavy torpedo etc. We just need is proper configuration and consultancy where ever it is required. We can build one by the time we get from the lengthy process of shortlisting and procuring one.

state of the art sonar? state of the art heavy torpedoes?
do you have source pease?

 

[BON PLAN]

Why can't India simply indigenise scorpene itself? Spain has managed to do that.

LOL.
Spain is not a good exemple ! S80 is over budget, over delay, need US consultency to modify it so as it can dive properly.

It's not so easy. A submarine is one of the most difficult item of the world to study and produce.

 

[BON PLAN]

The engine is MTU made, not France. The engine has power of 1-1.5MW each and there are 4 such engines in a scorpene. India has the ability to make diesel engine upto 3MW and has used them in coast guard vessels consistently. Other components like sonar and processing system is also made in India. Indian expertise in making Arihant shows that tge communication and other subsystems are also capable of being made in India

What is the max depth of the Arihant? compare it to the Scorpene one.
Engine, electrical motors, battery are one thing. Forging parts, high elastic limit steel parts, anechoic tiles, are another.

 

[nongaddarliberal]

I don't see the point of having so many different types of submarines. P75i should be AIP scorpene. Would make maintenance of the fleet a lot easier.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

LOL.
Spain is not a good exemple ! S80 is over budget, over delay, need US consultency to modify it so as it can dive properly.

It's not so easy. A submarine is one of the most difficult item of the world to study and produce.

Submarines were made even in WW2. Only stealth and communication aspects have improved after that whereas the stress steel part remains only slightly improved.

Spain failed because they did not have manufacturing ability and abruptly started to manufacture the submarines which caused a mess. But India already makes the submarine and the steel hull part is made in India already. So, indigenising the remaining components using Arihant derived subsystems should be easy enough.

What is the max depth of the Arihant? compare it to the Scorpene one.
Engine, electrical motors, battery are one thing. Forging parts, high elastic limit steel parts, anechoic tiles, are another.

Arihant has dived to 350 metres, same as scorpene's depth level: https://bharatkarnad.com/2014/08/21/arihant-has-dived-below-crushing-depths/

Arihant will also have anechoic tiles. India has learnt a lot from Russian submarines which it has taken on lease and also from Russian technology assistance.

state of the art sonar? state of the art heavy torpedoes?
do you have source pease?

India makes USHUS sonar and Varunastra torpedoes. You will find these by googling. Arihant submarine uses Indian SONAR and torpedoes

 

[HariPrasad-1]

state of the art sonar? state of the art heavy torpedoes?
do you have source pease?

we are very strong in sonar. Our Hull mounted sonars are state of art in our warships. We have installed our own sonar on KILO class imported from Russia so far as I know. This was the sonar which detected US submarine and kill it in an exercise.
Yes, we have state of art heavy torpedo which was praised a lot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varunastra_(torpedo)

 

[Enquirer]

The engine is MTU made, not France. The engine has power of 1-1.5MW each and there are 4 such engines in a scorpene. India has the ability to make diesel engine upto 3MW and has used them in coast guard vessels consistently. Other components like sonar and processing system is also made in India. Indian expertise in making Arihant shows that tge communication and other subsystems are also capable of being made in India

As usual you spin up BS with your unlimited ignorance.
Arihant is not a hunter-killer submarine. The Subtics required for a hunter-killer submarine will be quite different from what a ballistic submarine requires (think of Agni 1 missile vs Barak 8)!!
A lot of research is being done to indigenize submarine components - including a photonic mast etc. But, they are all several years out in terms of being 'ready for induction'.
Constantly claiming that India has ALL the capabilities at its finger tips is just puerile.
All Naval ships made in India import the engines.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

As usual you spin up BS with your unlimited ignorance.
Arihant is not a hunter-killer submarine. The Subtics required for a hunter-killer submarine will be quite different from what a ballistic submarine requires (think of Agni 1 missile vs Barak 8)!!
A lot of research is being done to indigenize submarine components - including a photonic mast etc. But, they are all several years out in terms of being 'ready for induction'.
Constantly claiming that India has ALL the capabilities at its finger tips is just puerile.
All Naval ships made in India import the engines.

Arihant is not "officially" a hunter killer. But, I see no use of SSBN for India at all. SSBN is only meant for long range missile deployment, not the bullshit of second strike. Second strike is never a point of concern for any country with common sense as destroying the land based assets are near impossible by any amount of firepower and in the worst case of these being destroyed, minimal retaliation from submarines will serve hardly any purpose. Nukes are needed in quantities of thousands to cause meaningful damage, not in tens carried on submarine. The size of Arihant and its short ranged missile raises a question of Arihant's utility as SSBN.

Again, you seem to be over your mind by comparing Agni with BARAK-8 missile. The difference is more or less like Akash vs BARAK-8 missile. That is not too high. Photonic mast is not a big deal either as it is mostly about keeping a camera instead of periscope in a rough sense.

India has made its own boiler based propulsion in BHEL and is in use in Brahmaputra class. India also has upto 3MW diesel engine made by Kirloskar and used in coast guard ships. The scorpene needs 1-1.5MW diesel engines which is well within Indian reach.

The ready for induction of many indigenous items may be some time away simply due to concerns for safety rather than complete unfitness. With some error tolerance. these can be inducted prematurely in haste if needed.

 

[Enquirer]

Arihant is not "officially" a hunter killer. But, I see no use of SSBN for India at all. SSBN is only meant for long range missile deployment, not the bullshit of second strike. Second strike is never a point of concern for any country with common sense as destroying the land based assets are near impossible by any amount of firepower and in the worst case of these being destroyed, minimal retaliation from submarines will serve hardly any purpose. Nukes are needed in quantities of thousands to cause meaningful damage, not in tens carried on submarine. The size of Arihant and its short ranged missile raises a question of Arihant's utility as SSBN.

What relevance does your personal opinion on the utility of low-range SLBMs have on India's technical capabilities to build a Scorpene class submarine completely domestically??

Again, you seem to be over your mind by comparing Agni with BARAK-8 missile. The difference is more or less like Akash vs BARAK-8 missile. That is not too high.

Comparing Agni with Barak-8 is absolutely logical and correct in THIS CONTEXT. The fact that you don't understand this relevance only corroborates that you're out of your pay-grade to comment on serious technological/engineering aspects of building a state-of-the-art conventional submarine.

Photonic mast is not a big deal either as it is mostly about keeping a camera instead of periscope in a rough sense.

Yeah right! Just screw in an old iPhone! Wonder why DRDO is taking so many years for that?

India has made its own boiler based propulsion in BHEL and is in use in Brahmaputra class. India also has upto 3MW diesel engine made by Kirloskar and used in coast guard ships. The scorpene needs 1-1.5MW diesel engines which is well within Indian reach.

Yeah right! L&T also makes turbines....just fit that on Tejas and be done with it!!!

The ready for induction of many indigenous items may be some time away simply due to concerns for safety rather than complete unfitness. With some error tolerance. these can be inducted prematurely in haste if
needed.

Unsafe but completely fit??
You smoke some strong stuff!

 

[no smoking]

Second strike is never a point of concern for any country with common sense as destroying the land based assets are near impossible by any amount of firepower

All P5 nuclear generals don't agree with you. Since 1970s, there was almost zero hardened silo was built in major nuclear power countries. Instead, the majority of their nuclear missiles are put on those mobilized platforms (submarine and TEL) except the missiles carrying first strike mission.


Why? Because the missiles are becoming more and more accurate.

For example, the silo of US Minuteman 3 missile was built to resist 140kg/cm2, a 0.5mt warhead with CEP 370m has 29.5% chance to destroy it. However, when the CEP can improved to 185m, the possibility will be 75.2%. Now, American tridentCertainly, you can make the silo stronger, but the cost will become unaffordable.

in the worst case of these being destroyed, minimal retaliation from submarines will serve hardly any purpose.

“Minimal retaliation from submarines”?

Let’s take US as an example, 14 Ohio submarines x 24 tridents x 6 warheads (modest level) = 2016 warheads. Total warheads stockpile? 4385! Nearly half.

Guess how many minuteman-3 missiles does US deployed now? 399! One warhead for each missile. So, 399 warheads stored in silo.

These numbers tell us that Americans are laughing at your opinion.

Nukes are needed in quantities of thousands to cause meaningful damage, not in tens carried on submarine. The size of Arihant and its short ranged missile raises a question of Arihant's utility as SSBN.

That is the issue of India’s capability to build a modern SSBN not nuclear submarine.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

That is the issue of India’s capability to build a modern SSBN not nuclear submarine.

Might be demonstrated in next decade.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Navy_SSN_programme

 

[Willy3]

I don't see the point of having so many different types of submarines. P75i should be AIP scorpene. Would make maintenance of the fleet a lot easier.

I think govt can't outright cancel 75I and give further contract to franxe as it will fan oppositions rafale allegation .
I even think that govt will forced to choose other submarine just to cool down this side

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

What relevance does your personal opinion on the utility of low-range SLBMs have on India's technical capabilities to build a Scorpene class submarine completely domestically??

How is this an opinion? India makes Arihant submarine and that includes SONAR, torpedo firing ability etc. Arihant is fully capable of attacking enemy vessels using its torpedoes. So, that makes no sense at all to say India has no state of the art technology to make submarines. You will become a laughing stock if you try to say that a country can make arihant submarine but has no capability to make conventional submarines!

Comparing Agni with Barak-8 is absolutely logical and correct in THIS CONTEXT. The fact that you don't understand this relevance only corroborates that you're out of your pay-grade to comment on serious technological/engineering aspects of building a state-of-the-art conventional submarine.

How is it correct? Don't you know that Arihant has the capability of firing torpedoes and has SONAR detection ability? Only major difference between Arihant and Scorpene is in its size and fluid dynamics. That becomes comparable to Akash and Barak-8. May be your pay grade is too low to understand this?

Yeah right! Just screw in an old iPhone! Wonder why DRDO is taking so many years for that?

That is because the mast will need a variety of cameras like thermal, infrared, optical camera etc. In addition, the control room of submarine has to be optimised as it no longer needs to be at the top where the commander can see through. It is not just the technology but also other optimisation that takes time

Yeah right! L&T also makes turbines....just fit that on Tejas and be done with it!!!

India can fit RD33 engine in Tejas, for example. Also, the diesel engine in submarines are not really state of the art. The diesel engines existed even in 1970s Kilo class or Agosta submarines. There will be some work to fit Indian diesel engines in scorpenes like making the correct transmission, gear box to fit into scorpene, but that is not technology barrier but just optimisation task.

Unsafe but completely fit??
You smoke some strong stuff!

Not fully safe but "good enough" is what I said. It is like riding a bike by wearing helmet vs riding without a helmet.

 

[Enquirer]

How is this an opinion? India makes Arihant submarine and that includes SONAR, torpedo firing ability etc. Arihant is fully capable of attacking enemy vessels using its torpedoes. So, that makes no sense at all to say India has no state of the art technology to make submarines. You will become a laughing stock if you try to say that a country can make arihant submarine but has no capability to make conventional submarines!


How is it correct? Don't you know that Arihant has the capability of firing torpedoes and has SONAR detection ability? Only major difference between Arihant and Scorpene is in its size and fluid dynamics. That becomes comparable to Akash and Barak-8. May be your pay grade is too low to understand this?


That is because the mast will need a variety of cameras like thermal, infrared, optical camera etc. In addition, the control room of submarine has to be optimised as it no longer needs to be at the top where the commander can see through. It is not just the technology but also other optimisation that takes time


India can fit RD33 engine in Tejas, for example. Also, the diesel engine in submarines are not really state of the art. The diesel engines existed even in 1970s Kilo class or Agosta submarines. There will be some work to fit Indian diesel engines in scorpenes like making the correct transmission, gear box to fit into scorpene, but that is not technology barrier but just optimisation task.


Not fully safe but "good enough" is what I said. It is like riding a bike by wearing helmet vs riding without a helmet.

Dude! You're lacking so much in commonsense.
You think and ask questions like a 3 year old - and don't sound even half as cute! It's exhausting to explain simple shit to you!

 

[BON PLAN]

Submarines were made even in WW2. Only stealth and communication aspects have improved after that whereas the stress steel part remains only slightly improved.

Spain failed because they did not have manufacturing ability and abruptly started to manufacture the submarines which caused a mess. But India already makes the submarine and the steel hull part is made in India already. So, indigenising the remaining components using Arihant derived subsystems should be easy enough.

Even in WW1 !
Iran is able to produce small subs. But you can't compare it with last gen SSK.
Spain failed because they lacked some know-how you can't purchase. You need time to mature some tech and to learn from your failure. That's why the state of the art subs are made by old compagny.
The noise reduction measures are not so easy : you need to master some maths, some materials...

 

[BON PLAN]

I think govt can't outright cancel 75I and give further contract to franxe as it will fan oppositions rafale allegation .
I even think that govt will forced to choose other submarine just to cool down this side

Absolutely no link between Scorpene deal and Rafale deal.
For Rafale all depends of the next indian election. If Modi win, all will be possible, for Rafale and for sub.

 

[Willy3]

Absolutely no link between Scorpene deal and Rafale deal.
For Rafale all depends of the next indian election. If Modi win, all will be possible, for Rafale and for sub.

Yah..no link, political party like CONgress just need the french origina link to spread their propoganda

 

[Indrajit]

I think govt can't outright cancel 75I and give further contract to franxe as it will fan oppositions rafale allegation .
I even think that govt will forced to choose other submarine just to cool down this side

Add to that, the French explicitly promised Australia that India will never get the higher standards of technology that they promised the Australians. While a follow on order would have been the preferred options, rewarding a vendor who promises a third country that we won’t get top technology on our submarines should be last on our list if at all.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

While a follow on order would have been the preferred options, rewarding a vendor who promises a third country that we won’t get top technology on our submarines should be last on our list if at all.

Other countries aren't even willing to transfer technology. As far as Australia is concerned, their obsession with Indian Navy in Indian Ocean is akin to BBC on Indian Military on space.
Convincing them or even providing them somewhat better tech than India's procured is going to boost their egos. But they aren't the one to be taken seriously.

 

[BON PLAN]

the French explicitly promised Australia that India will never get the higher standards of technology that they promised the Australians.

if it is so explicit, you will give me the source.

From my own point, as the SSK Baracuda is studied for Australia, the intelectual rights belong to Australia. It's as simple as that.