Project-75I class SSK Submarines

[Immanuel]

P-75I is waste of time. A simple follow on order of 6 more advanced Scorpenes is the best way forward.

 

[BON PLAN]

P-75I is waste of time. A simple follow on order of 6 more advanced Scorpenes is the best way forward.

I think it will be the case. A bigger Scorpene with an indian AIP. Maybe with some VLS for SCALP Naval and/or Brahmos ?

 

[Immanuel]

I think it will be the case. A bigger Scorpene with an indian AIP. Maybe with some VLS for SCALP Naval and/or Brahmos ?

Not sure about Brahmos on Scorpene but I think all Scorpenes are good candidates for Nirbhay integrations that should be easier than Brahmos due to Russia being a partner in the JV.

By the time a follow on order for new gen Scorpenes are made Nirbhays should be ready for submarine testing. It would be worth investigating having Conventional K-15/ Sagarika missiles from Scorpenes as well.

 

[FactsPlease]

Wonder this been posted b4. Mod please delete it if so.
https://asiapacificdefencereporter....n-trouble-and-the-barracuda-reference-design/
Sounds to me SEA100 is in deep trouble...
Some Excerpt:
1) In summary, we know that the Barracuda is at least three years late – and counting – but we do not know why. It matters because Naval Group have limited human resources – like any company – and needs to allocate skilled people appropriately. If the French program has gone off the rails and is absorbing the time and energy of senior people that means that the Australian effort will by definition be under resourced.
2) Australian Defence contracting history is littered with examples where companies have been penalised for poor performance. Probably the most noteworthy recent example was the huge hit that Boeing took for failing to meet schedule on the ‘Wedgetail’ AEW&C program – which is a salutary lesson because the system is now working exceptionally well, but might not have done so without the Commonwealth waving a very large stick in the form of liquidated damages. Another relevant case was when Defence stopped payments to Airbus as a consequence of problems with Tiger helicopters.
Apparently this is not the way that Naval Group does business in France. Since they are effectively part of the Government, more money keeps being poured into a program until a submarine or ship is eventually delivered. This is definitely not how things are done in Australia – but the French management are trying to proceed on the basis that eventually Defence will have no choice but to give in.
3) Another big problem for the French is that apparently some of the senior management do not feel bound by commitments made during the Competitive Evaluation Process. The atmospherics of trying to walk away from important parts of the deal look bad and have undoubtedly contributed to what can only be described as a major erosion of confidence on the part of Defence. This lack of trust has been conveyed to Defence Minister Christopher Pyne.

 

[BON PLAN]

Wonder this been posted b4. Mod please delete it if so.
https://asiapacificdefencereporter....n-trouble-and-the-barracuda-reference-design/
Sounds to me SEA100 is in deep trouble...
Some Excerpt:
1) In summary, we know that the Barracuda is at least three years late – and counting – but we do not know why. It matters because Naval Group have limited human resources – like any company – and needs to allocate skilled people appropriately. If the French program has gone off the rails and is absorbing the time and energy of senior people that means that the Australian effort will by definition be under resourced.
2) Australian Defence contracting history is littered with examples where companies have been penalised for poor performance. Probably the most noteworthy recent example was the huge hit that Boeing took for failing to meet schedule on the ‘Wedgetail’ AEW&C program – which is a salutary lesson because the system is now working exceptionally well, but might not have done so without the Commonwealth waving a very large stick in the form of liquidated damages. Another relevant case was when Defence stopped payments to Airbus as a consequence of problems with Tiger helicopters.
Apparently this is not the way that Naval Group does business in France. Since they are effectively part of the Government, more money keeps being poured into a program until a submarine or ship is eventually delivered. This is definitely not how things are done in Australia – but the French management are trying to proceed on the basis that eventually Defence will have no choice but to give in.
3) Another big problem for the French is that apparently some of the senior management do not feel bound by commitments made during the Competitive Evaluation Process. The atmospherics of trying to walk away from important parts of the deal look bad and have undoubtedly contributed to what can only be described as a major erosion of confidence on the part of Defence. This lack of trust has been conveyed to Defence Minister Christopher Pyne.

Strange !
The next agreement to close the désign is just inked.

 

[WolfPack86]

These are the 4 submarine types that have officially thrown their hat in the ring to compete in India’s Project 75I submarine build program. Long road ahead.

 

[BON PLAN]

These are the 4 submarine types that have officially thrown their hat in the ring to compete in India’s Project 75I submarine build program. Long road ahead.

The winner is the German of the French.
French have some advantages : a line is already on duty. And the product is excellent.

 

[FactsPlease]

Strange !
The next agreement to close the désign is just inked.

Latest news, which confirms what you said. Guess both sides sort out the problems.

Australia, France Sign $35.5 Billion Submarine Contract
https://thediplomat.com/2019/02/australia-france-sign-35-5-billion-submarine-contract/

 

[Abhijeet Dey]

SAAB: The new expeditionary submarine

 

[Shashwat]

^^Nobody isbetter at marketting than Saab. Enuff said I guess.

 

[Aaj ka hero]

Not sure about Brahmos on Scorpene but I think all Scorpenes are good candidates for Nirbhay integrations that should be easier than Brahmos due to Russia being a partner in the JV.

By the time a follow on order for new gen Scorpenes are made Nirbhays should be ready for submarine testing. It would be worth investigating having Conventional K-15/ Sagarika missiles from Scorpenes as well.

If follow on order is made then that mean more indigenous components, this then mean indian AIP, indian torpedoes(hope they arrive on time), indian sonars too.
Then I don't understand, why Russians will react to brahmos then.
The point of talking further scorpenes induction is more "made in India" oh sorry "make in india" .

 

[Abhijeet Dey]

Can SMX-31 become a contender for Project 75I?

 

[uoftotaku]

Can SMX-31 become a contender for Project 75I?

The SMX series are not meant for serious construction. DCNS comes out with a new SMX concept every year for showcasing its "vision" and design capabilities for the future. Most of the designs are not practical nor are they meant to be. Think of it like the concept car models that car makers put out during big car shows...look cool...have a lot of fanciful gadgets in them...but never see them outside the show floor

 

[Chinmoy]

If follow on order is made then that mean more indigenous components, this then mean indian AIP, indian torpedoes(hope they arrive on time), indian sonars too.
Then I don't understand, why Russians will react to brahmos then.
The point of talking further scorpenes induction is more "made in India" oh sorry "make in india" .

On the very onset BRAHMOS can't be fitted in Scorpene class in its current form. As of now there is only one submarine in Indian arsenal which could fire BRAHMOS...... Arihant.

 

[patriots]

On the very onset BRAHMOS can't be fitted in Scorpene class in its current form. As of now there is only one submarine in Indian arsenal which could fire BRAHMOS...... Arihant.

Who said arihant can fire brahmos.......
Any source.....

 

[uoftotaku]

Who said arihant can fire brahmos.......
Any source.....

In principle...DRDO has successfully validated Brahmos underwater VLS and the Arihant's tubes are modular to fit the K-4 or K-15 x 3 which can easily be swapped out for Brahmos x 3 or x 4 in future.

Right now..it won't carry it as the role is different. No country allows its SSBN's to carry conventional payloads in service as it can cause huge misunderstanding in case of firing. You never want anyone to mistake a cruise missile for a nuclear strike and respond accordingly.

 

[Shiv sagar]

No country allows its SSBN's to carry conventional payloads in service as it can cause huge misunderstanding in case of firing. You never want anyone to mistake a cruise missile for a nuclear strike and respond accordingly.

How can an adversary identify the missiles are from SSBN/SSN Or a diesel sub? IMHO there is no sure shot way to identify whether the missiles are carrying a conventional warhead or a nuke one till the actual impact. If its the case of napakis, they even lack the capability to distinguish su 30 mkis from domestic airliners....thus the notams are extended indefinitely....So There is no disadvantages in carrying a conventional pay load by .SSBN

 

[uoftotaku]

How can an adversary identify the missiles are from SSBN/SSN Or a diesel sub? IMHO there is no sure shot way to identify whether the missiles are carrying a conventional warhead or a nuke one till the actual impact. If its the case of napakis, they even lack the capability to distinguish su 30 mkis from domestic airliners....thus the notams are extended indefinitely....So There is no disadvantages in carrying a conventional pay load by .SSBN

It is precisely because of the difficulty in identification that responsible countries follow certain protocols. These were established originally between the US and USSR during the start of the Cold War SSBN race to avoid potentially catastrophic misunderstandings. The practice of issuing NOTAMS during weapons tests also dates to this era. The players have changed but rules have not. There is no disadvantage at all as you say...BUT it is avoided for other more subtle reasons..not just by us but by ALL countries that operate SSBNs.

 

[Shiv sagar]

It is precisely because of the difficulty in identification that responsible countries follow certain protocols. These were established originally between the US and USSR during the start of the Cold War SSBN race to avoid potentially catastrophic misunderstandings. The practice of issuing NOTAMS during weapons tests also dates to this era. The players have changed but rules have not. There is no disadvantage at all as you say...BUT it is avoided for other more subtle reasons..not just by us but by ALL countries that operate SSBNs.

There may have been such unwritten conventional rules between usa and ussr but i doubt it, as Usa had only SSBN s at that time, no diesel electric subs in operation and they still doesn't operate any diesel sub even now. You are saying that Usa doest have conventional warhead on their missiles in their SSBNS.... no way they have...they have used it in middle east...so your argument is i am afraid to say is baseless.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

In principle...DRDO has successfully validated Brahmos underwater VLS and the Arihant's tubes are modular to fit the K-4 or K-15 x 3 which can easily be swapped out for Brahmos x 3 or x 4 in future.

Right now..it won't carry it as the role is different. No country allows its SSBN's to carry conventional payloads in service as it can cause huge misunderstanding in case of firing. You never want anyone to mistake a cruise missile for a nuclear strike and respond accordingly.

No serious military is going to confuse a Mach 3 sea skimming cruise missile with a ballistic missile. US Navy has used SSGN which is essentially an SSBN with a conventional cruise missile loadout.

In fact, I believe that once we have the larger SSBN classes in service, then depending on the amount of fuel left in Arihant's reactor, Arihant might be used as an SSGN.

How can an adversary identify the missiles are from SSBN/SSN Or a diesel sub?

SONAR signature. If the adversary has your SONAR signature in his library, he can tell what submarine it is after he locates it through SONAR. Its a bit like listening to the sound of the assault rifle in Call of Duty and figuring out which rifle it is.