Project-75I class SSK Submarines

[Kalki_2018]

Won't it need approval from both GoI and France? Good move over all.

 

[WolfPack86]

The Brahmos on submarine concept at #Army2018 #Moscow

 

[WolfPack86]

Unsurprising: On the @IndianNavy’s Project 75(I) submarine build program, Russia hopes the Amur 1650 will be chosen as part of a government-to-government deal, instead of a contested tender process, says Rosoboronexport’s Alexander Mikheev.

 

[darshan978]

Unsurprising: On the @IndianNavy’s Project 75(I) submarine build program, Russia hopes the Amur 1650 will be chosen as part of a government-to-government deal, instead of a contested tender process, says Rosoboronexport’s Alexander Mikheev.

Gone those day when we used to blindly buy russian wares
Forget it we are not dumb.
If they wanna sell us wares they have to stand in line and prove their build quality and performance

 

[Bhurki]

Various mentions by media and defence council peg the cost of P75I program at $8-10 bn, for 6 subs of 2000 ton category, that's $1.5 bn per ship!!! Can somebody justify that, considering we built arihant class ssbn for Rs. 4000 crore ( $600 million) which not only runs off of a nuclear plant but also launches ballistic missiles.. Also every other SSK made by other countires cost in the neighbourhood of $200-400 mn .
Also considering most of ToT happened in the first scorpene P75 deal

 

[Kranthi]

Various mentions by media and defence council peg the cost of P75I program at $8-10 bn, for 6 subs of 2000 ton category, that's $1.5 bn per ship!!! Can somebody justify that, considering we built arihant class ssbn for Rs. 4000 crore ( $600 million) which not only runs off of a nuclear plant but also launches ballistic missiles.. Also every other SSK made by other countires cost in the neighbourhood of $200-400 mn .
Also considering most of ToT happened in the first scorpene P75 deal

Have you checked the cost of the subs Australia is buying from France ? Its $50 Bn for 12 subs. And we don't know the tonnage of the P75-I yet. I think Navy only mentions requirements in the RFI, we don't know what DCNS will be offering this time.

Compared to scorpene deal, this time we are asking for a bigger sub with AIP and VLS missile launch capability. These subs are also going to have great range and endurance.

1. Foreign mall is always costly
2. We don't know the real cost of Arihant
3. Inflation and higher costs of new technology. For example, look at the cost of the last decade's Shivalik class vessels. Yet the P17A cost is pegged at about 9 billion dollars, despite being built in India.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

 

[BON PLAN]

Various mentions by media and defence council peg the cost of P75I program at $8-10 bn, for 6 subs of 2000 ton category, that's $1.5 bn per ship!!! Can somebody justify that, considering we built arihant class ssbn for Rs. 4000 crore ( $600 million) which not only runs off of a nuclear plant but also launches ballistic missiles.. Also every other SSK made by other countires cost in the neighbourhood of $200-400 mn .
Also considering most of ToT happened in the first scorpene P75 deal

It depends what is include in the cost.
Maybe it's a dry price for Arihant, and with weaponry, some years of full support and training for the P75I.

 

[Bhurki]

I wpuld love to see the gymnastics indian naval forces employ to fit such large projects into such tiny shipbuilding revenue awarded by GoI

 

[Prashant12]

Submarine plan propels forward after delays


The Navy’s mega-deal for procuring six advanced conventional submarines under Project-75I and processed through the Strategic Partnership (SP) model is moving forward after being held up due to policy clarity. The Ministry of Defence (MoD) has initiated the process to finalise specific guidelines for the project, estimated to cost over ₹60,000 crore.

“A meeting is planned with MoD in mid-September to finalise aspects relevant to submarine specific guidelines for SP model. Specific aspects requiring concurrence of foreign OEMs (Original Equipment Manufacturers) are enumerated in the succeeding paragraphs,” the MoD said in a long communication issued to the OEMs in the end of August.

The communication details the desired project outcomes under broad heads like creation of industrial eco-system, the range and scope of technology transfer, indigenisation content, indigenisation of the pressure hull steel, research and development and skilling roadmaps which have detailed enclosures.

Compliance is key
The foreign OEMs have been asked to indicate compliance for each para and sub-paras listed and also for all the enclosures along with their observations and remarks and submit their responses by September 11.

“The meetings with MoD are likely to be scheduled in the week commencing September 17. Firm dates and timings will be promulgated at short notice,” the communication reads.

Four foreign OEMs have responded to the Navy’s Request for Information issued last year. However, further progress got held up as clarity was required on some aspects of the SP model. The contenders are Naval Group of France, Rosoboronexport Rubin Design Bureau of Russia, ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems of Germany and Saab group of Sweden.

From the Indian private sector only two companies, Larsen and Toubro and Reliance Defence, have shipyards and hence eligible to participate in the tender. Mazagon Dock Ltd, a defence public sector undertaking and the only Indian shipyard with experience of manufacturing submarines, is also expected to be considered.

The SP model, which is the last chapter of the defence procurement procedure, has four segments — submarines, single engine fighter aircraft, helicopters and armoured carriers/main battle tanks — which would be specifically opened up for the private sector. Under this policy an Indian private company would be selected in each segment which would tie up with shortlisted global OEM to manufacture the platforms in India under technology transfer. The ambitious policy came into effect in May last year but progress was slow due to lack of clarity.

End of July, the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) cleared the general as well as project specific implementation guidelines for Naval utility helicopters.

https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...pels-forward-after-delays/article24957050.ece

 

[BON PLAN]

Submarine plan propels forward after delays


The Navy’s mega-deal for procuring six advanced conventional submarines under Project-75I and processed through the Strategic Partnership (SP) model is moving forward after being held up due to policy clarity. The Ministry of Defence (MoD) has initiated the process to finalise specific guidelines for the project, estimated to cost over ₹60,000 crore.

“A meeting is planned with MoD in mid-September to finalise aspects relevant to submarine specific guidelines for SP model. Specific aspects requiring concurrence of foreign OEMs (Original Equipment Manufacturers) are enumerated in the succeeding paragraphs,” the MoD said in a long communication issued to the OEMs in the end of August.

The communication details the desired project outcomes under broad heads like creation of industrial eco-system, the range and scope of technology transfer, indigenisation content, indigenisation of the pressure hull steel, research and development and skilling roadmaps which have detailed enclosures.

Compliance is key
The foreign OEMs have been asked to indicate compliance for each para and sub-paras listed and also for all the enclosures along with their observations and remarks and submit their responses by September 11.

“The meetings with MoD are likely to be scheduled in the week commencing September 17. Firm dates and timings will be promulgated at short notice,” the communication reads.

Four foreign OEMs have responded to the Navy’s Request for Information issued last year. However, further progress got held up as clarity was required on some aspects of the SP model. The contenders are Naval Group of France, Rosoboronexport Rubin Design Bureau of Russia, ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems of Germany and Saab group of Sweden.

From the Indian private sector only two companies, Larsen and Toubro and Reliance Defence, have shipyards and hence eligible to participate in the tender. Mazagon Dock Ltd, a defence public sector undertaking and the only Indian shipyard with experience of manufacturing submarines, is also expected to be considered.

The SP model, which is the last chapter of the defence procurement procedure, has four segments — submarines, single engine fighter aircraft, helicopters and armoured carriers/main battle tanks — which would be specifically opened up for the private sector. Under this policy an Indian private company would be selected in each segment which would tie up with shortlisted global OEM to manufacture the platforms in India under technology transfer. The ambitious policy came into effect in May last year but progress was slow due to lack of clarity.

End of July, the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) cleared the general as well as project specific implementation guidelines for Naval utility helicopters.

https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...pels-forward-after-delays/article24957050.ece

I think if India choose German or Russian proposal, a stop gap of 3 more Scorpene will be inked.
Sweden is out.
The most logical choice is a bigger Scorpene sub, with SCALP NAVAL capacity and maybe AIP.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

I think if India choose German or Russian proposal, a stop gap of 3 more Scorpene will be inked.
Sweden is out.
The most logical choice is a bigger Scorpene sub, with SCALP NAVAL capacity and maybe AIP.

The tender is to choose the next batch of submarines to get full indigenisation. If French submarines are to be bought another 3 then there is no need to buy Russian submarines. Germany is ruled out as unreliable country. So, either India will go for full indigenisation with 3-6 more scorpenes or will go for indigenisation with Russian ones whichever offers the best path to 100% made in India submarines. After the P75I, there should be no more imported submarines.

 

[WolfPack86]

India’s long delayed Project 75 India (P75I) submarine build program to move ahead soon, says @IndianNavy chief Admiral Sunil Lanba, with issue of submarine-specific guidelines under the Strategic Partnership model. Five prospective contenders.

 

[BON PLAN]

The tender is to choose the next batch of submarines to get full indigenisation. If French submarines are to be bought another 3 then there is no need to buy Russian submarines. Germany is ruled out as unreliable country. So, either India will go for full indigenisation with 3-6 more scorpenes or will go for indigenisation with Russian ones whichever offers the best path to 100% made in India submarines. After the P75I, there should be no more imported submarines.

The problem of the russian proposal is that their late classical sub, AMUR/LADA, is not so nice that the KILO was on its time.
If germany and Japan are out. The sweden lack of practice (only a marketing product so far). Russia product not a leading edge product....
Remain Scorpene and Barracuda derivatives.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

The problem of the russian proposal is that their late classical sub, AMUR/LADA, is not so nice that the KILO was on its time.
If germany and Japan are out. The sweden lack of practice (only a marketing product so far). Russia product not a leading edge product....
Remain Scorpene and Barracuda derivatives.

Saying Amur is not nice is just an opinion. Russia is a serious contender and must not be dismissed. Only advantage of France is that India already makes Scorpenes upto 50% indigenised and the rest 50% can also be made in India. India can replace German engines (4 engines of 1-1.5MW) as India has engines upto 3MW made in India already. Other things can also be replaced with Indian content to make the Scorpene fully Indian in next 5-6 years. Whereas if AMUR is bought, India will have to start from scratch in indigenisation process

 

[BON PLAN]

Saying Amur is not nice is just an opinion. Russia is a serious contender and must not be dismissed. Only advantage of France is that India already makes Scorpenes upto 50% indigenised and the rest 50% can also be made in India. India can replace German engines (4 engines of 1-1.5MW) as India has engines upto 3MW made in India already. Other things can also be replaced with Indian content to make the Scorpene fully Indian in next 5-6 years. Whereas if AMUR is bought, India will have to start from scratch in indigenisation process

AMUR/LADA suffer from some technical problems. Russian navy is not satisfied with. First one, the Saint Petersbourg, isn't able to deliver the right power to move at the correct speed.
And there also some problem of noise. KILO subs are stealthier than this newer one.

Sure Scorpene has some main advantages : it is already on production and now well known by Mazagon. It runs perfectly well, it is very stealthy. Add some VLS, a AIP, and it would be a perfect sub for india.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

India’s long delayed Project 75 India (P75I) submarine build program to move ahead soon, says @IndianNavy chief Admiral Sunil Lanba, with issue of submarine-specific guidelines under the Strategic Partnership model. Five prospective contenders.

At this stage, i do not think that it is good going for Project 75I. It is too late now. we should study primary designs of submarines available should go ahead with consultancy and where ever required technology transfer. After building Scorpene class, what else are we going to get additional? We have developed our own AIP as well. We have state of art Sonar, Decoys, heavy torpedo etc. We just need is proper configuration and consultancy where ever it is required. We can build one by the time we get from the lengthy process of shortlisting and procuring one.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Gone those day when we used to blindly buy russian wares
Forget it we are not dumb.
If they wanna sell us wares they have to stand in line and prove their build quality and performance

If it is a good one, there is no harm in go for one in government to government deal. This will save a huge amount of money and we can get full technology under this deal. It may come very fast.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

At this stage, i do not think that it is good going for Project 75I. It is too late now. we should study primary designs of submarines available should go ahead with consultancy and where ever required technology transfer. After building Scorpene class, what else are we going to get additional? We have developed our own AIP as well. We have state of art Sonar, Decoys, heavy torpedo etc. We just need is proper configuration and consultancy where ever it is required. We can build one by the time we get from the lengthy process of shortlisting and procuring one.

Why can't India simply indigenise scorpene itself? Spain has managed to do that. India is already building scorpene with the 6th submarine to be 50% indigenous. Why can't India simply replace the remaining 50% instead of wasting time on making new design?

 

[Enquirer]

Why can't India simply indigenise scorpene itself? Spain has managed to do that. India is already building scorpene with the 6th submarine to be 50% indigenous. Why can't India simply replace the remaining 50% instead of wasting time on making new design?

What India is building is just the metal works! The complicated systems like the Subtics, engines etc will all be coming directly from France! It's non-trivial to 'just indigenize'!

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

What India is building is just the metal works! The complicated systems like the Subtics, engines etc will all be coming directly from France! It's non-trivial to 'just indigenize'!

The engine is MTU made, not France. The engine has power of 1-1.5MW each and there are 4 such engines in a scorpene. India has the ability to make diesel engine upto 3MW and has used them in coast guard vessels consistently. Other components like sonar and processing system is also made in India. Indian expertise in making Arihant shows that tge communication and other subsystems are also capable of being made in India