MMRCA news and discussions.

[ppgj]

Don't you all think that India should go for a advanced platform.
Basic airframe for F-16/Mig29 is very old. There were news reports about Pak getting Euro fighter from Turkey.It seems there may be a chance for Turkey to offer EF to PAK. Don't you guys think, PAK will not be stuck with F-16 for ever. At some point it will be having access to modern aircraft in the next 15 years.

Our current acquisition should be able to match it and should be purchased keeping those things in mind too.

you are right TK. but i doubt if pakistan can afford EF. india will be getting pakfa in any case. there was recently news of its test flight within 4 months.

 

[AJSINGH]

I am not sure if we have fought any wars with the same weapons
but doesn't the PAF and IAF both have Mirages.

Of course the PAF mirages are old.
I am just trying to answer with regards to common platforms used by both the countries.This obviously contradicts my earlier post where I said- Combat aircraft is not a ordinary weapon system which can be had by both the countries of the same type.

So, both India and Pak have Mirages.How different are the Indian and Pak Versions ?Is India having a edge purely based on tactics and training ??

Now, I would like to know how different is this scenario with India acquiring F-16's ? Pak has some old F-16's and if we get, they will be pretty advanced version.

Of course AJ has given reasons as to why F-16 is not preferred by IAF.

about the mirages ,India has Mirage 2000 and pakistan has Mirage III , so yeh we had technical superirority , plus Indian pilots are better trained

and if u must know that USA will be upgrading PAF F-16 pretty soon

 

[AJSINGH]

I heard something like this for first time? Do you have a link to back your claim?

Electronic Warfare System Upgrade for Pakistani F-16 Fighter Jets | India Defence
US to upgrade Pakistans F16 jets - Instablogs

 

[AJSINGH]

if i were to quote an example 1971 war stands out. pakistan had then the most advanced sabres and india was fighting them with british gnats which by today's standard are not even equal to our trainer hawks and what were the results? gnats had a field day. gnats after those kills were called 'SABRE SLAYERS'.
it was purely training skill and tactics.

to some extent british Gants were superior in low speed agility , plus they were of smaller size ( infact the samlest fighter jet ever made)

you couldnt see them untill Gants were very close , plus our pilot training was better than the PAF

 

[AJSINGH]

Don't you all think that India should go for a advanced platform.
Basic airframe for F-16/Mig29 is very old. There were news reports about Pak getting Euro fighter from Turkey.It seems there may be a chance for Turkey to offer EF to PAK. Don't you guys think, PAK will not be stuck with F-16 for ever. At some point it will be having access to modern aircraft in the next 15 years.

Our current acquisition should be able to match it and should be purchased keeping those things in mind too.

correction Mig 35 airframe is totally redisgned and it is bigger and better and with better airframe life , on the other hand the airframe of F-16 has remained the same from 1970s
if at all Pakistan gets EF , then we should get Mig 35
Pakistan wont phase out F-16 ,infact they are undergoing midlife upgrade

 

[p2prada]

Tell you, Mig-35 is the one which is favored by most of the Indians including IAF. Before deciding to go for global tender, IAF was keen on buying Mig-29M1/M2, but changed mind. Transparency in procurement was minor reason, change in Russian attitude was major. And you did unprecedented gesture by allowing resale of RD-93 to pakistan. Take my word, Mig-35 may be the favorite baby, but she,we and you will loose for the sole reason non other than mentioned above.

Not a reason to not go for Russian.

The French sold Mirage-3s and Agosta 90B subs to Pakistan. France also made an offer to sell Rafale to Pak.

The Germans are ready to sell their 214s to PN.

The Swedish are selling AWACS and EW equipment to PAF.

The Americans.....well you know the drill.

Considering this logic, Russia only sold some Transport helos and a bunch of previous generation engines to power an aircraft that is not even close compared to what we are buying.

So, which country do we chose??????

 

[p2prada]

to some extent british Gants were superior in low speed agility , plus they were of smaller size ( infact the samlest fighter jet ever made)

you couldnt see them untill Gants were very close , plus our pilot training was better than the PAF

I doubt our pilot training was better than PAF in 65 and 71. They got it directly from the USAF and had very good equipment.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

domain-b.com : GE engines in the fray for MMRCA tender, parts to be sourced from India


GE engines in the fray for MMRCA tender, parts to be sourced from India news

17 September 2009


Multinational American technology and services conglomerate, General Electric (GE), currently in contention as an engine supplier for some aircraft participating in the medium-range multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) tender of the Indian Air Force has said it is keen on sourcing components from Indian industry.

Three of the MMRCA contenders - Boeing's F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Lockheed Martin's F-16IN Super Viper and Saab Gripen's JAS-39 fighter are powered by GE Aviation engines. These are the F414-GE-400 for the Boeing F/A-18E Super Hornet, the F110-GE-132 turbofan for the F-16IN Super Viper and the F414G turbofan, a version of the F414-GE-400, for Saab's Gripen.

GE has said it will manufacture, assemble and test the engine, should any of its partners win the contract, at Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) facilities. It has also said that it will get many of its engine components manufactured by local firms.

The F110-GE-132 turbofan engine developed by GE for the F-16IN was originally developed for the United Arab Emirates F-16E/F. The engine offers a thrust of 32,000 pounds, which is considered as little on the higher side for a small aircraft like the F-16, but also allows the F-16 IN to carry more armaments.


Since 1984, more than 3,000 F110 engines have been ordered by the US Air Force and have been mounted on various airframes, including the F-14 Tomcat, the F-15 Eagle and the F-16 Fighting Falcon.

According to Philip G Woniger, programme manager, F110-GE-132, GE Aviation, the company would make the engine compatible for Indian requirements. Such customisations would include durability core.

He also pointed out that the engine produced 170 reports which guided engine maintenance staff.

 

[Vladimir79]

Don't you all think that India should go for a advanced platform.
Basic airframe for F-16/Mig29 is very old. There were news reports about Pak getting Euro fighter from Turkey.It seems there may be a chance for Turkey to offer EF to PAK. Don't you guys think, PAK will not be stuck with F-16 for ever. At some point it will be having access to modern aircraft in the next 15 years.

Our current acquisition should be able to match it and should be purchased keeping those things in mind too.

You really think Turkey is going to go for EF-2000? They would have to cancel JSF programme. It would be music to my ears if they did so, but they have already signed agreements and poured millions.

 

[nitesh]

Defunct Humanity: Zhuk-AE is ready for fight

 

[RPK]

Russian fighter jets for Indian tender to have new radar | Top Russian news and analysis online | 'RIA Novosti' newswire

MOSCOW, September 17 (RIA Novosti) - Russia's Phazotron NIIR corporation said on Thursday it has developed a new-generation airborne radar for MiG-35 fighter jets which participate in the Indian fighter tender.

Six major aircraft makers - Lockheed and Boeing from the United States, Russia's MiG, which is part of the UAC, France's Dassault, Sweden's Saab and the EADS consortium of British, German, Spanish and Italian companies - are in contention to win the $10 billion contract for 126 light fighters to be supplied to the Indian Air Force.

One of the selection criteria in the tender is that the fighter's radar must have an active phased array radar with a target detection range of at least 130 kilometers (about 80 miles).

"We have met this requirement of the Indian tender and built the Zhuk-AE active phased array radar with a proven range of 148 kilometers," said Vyacheslav Tishchenko, the company's general director.

The X-band radar can track 30 aerial targets in the track-while-scan mode, and engage six targets simultaneously in the attack mode.

Tishchenko said the detection range could be increased up to 200 km (125 miles).

Russia's MiG-35 Fulcrum-F, an export version of the MiG-29M OVT is a highly maneuverable air superiority fighter, which won high international acclaim.

The fighter is powered by RD-33 OVT thrust vectoring engines. The RD-33 OVT engines provide superior maneuverability and enhance the fighter's performance in close air engagements.

The first demonstration flights of two MiG-35s in the Indian tender will be carried out in late October-early November in north-eastern India.

The aircraft will conduct live-firing tests of on-board weaponry on a testing range in southern Russia in March-April 2010.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

nothing in the world matches the Mig 35 because 3-D TVC technology surpasses F-22 raptor

Only because Mig-35 has 3-D TVC technology doesn't means it is the most manuverable aircraft, EF-2K,MKI, Rafale, SH and SV are also highly manuverable. Don't forget that EF-2K also supercruises.
Also don't forget every plane is driven by a man and their is a level of g-limit the pilot, airframe of the plane and the loadout on the plane can handle.

Radar -Agreed it is in development but the final version will be better than the S or SV,second only to Raptor.

Dude no offence but what are you smoking. Russians are nowhere close to the yankees AESA radars, forget russian the aren't even close to west european countries. Americans are undisputed leaders when it comes to semiconductors, high speed microprocessor, software and machining. All the above factors are regared as primary factors if you wish to build a AESA. Even west european countries which produce a good radar(in comparasion to russia) themself haven't yet mastered the AESA concept.

A parametric analysis and power aperture modelling is performed on the Zhuk ASE, which is a scaled up version of the Zhuk AE following the model of the Zhuk MSFE built for the Mig 35. The Fulcrum sized Zhuk ASE radar with existing Russian transmit receive module technology will deliver around 60 percent higher raw power aperture performance compared to US APG-79 (F/A-18E/F BII) and APG-81 (JSF) class radars, and fitted with transistor technology permitting 15 Watts/channel or more, as proposed by NIIR Phazotron, it will outperform the N035 Irbis-E (Su-35BM) and all currently deployed US fighter radars other than the APG-77(V)2 (F-22A Raptor). The earliest feasible IOC for the Zhuk ASE on the Flanker is estimated at 2010. People who say that Mig 35 radar is inferior to SH or SV dont know this fact

I highly doubt those figures for a simple reason higher the power more the amount of cooling required. ausairpower.net tend to hype things. In AESA just base power is not important, things like freqency hopping, beam sharping, LPI, etc... matter the most and also don't forget the algorithm and microprocessor used. The article clearly states if and only if fitted with transistor technology permitting 15 Watts/channel or more, as proposed by NIIR Phazotron then and only then it will outperform the N035 Irbis-E (Su-35BM) but the fact remains that such TR module remains on paper and current russian TR module gives power rating about 5 watts. If you had read the original article completely then it clearly specifies that Zhuk AE is comparable only to 1st generation American AESA. Russia also lacks behind in the field of packaging.
Give me some time i will give give an detailed differnce between radar available.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Not a reason to not go for Russian.

The French sold Mirage-3s and Agosta 90B subs to Pakistan. France also made an offer to sell Rafale to Pak.

The Germans are ready to sell their 214s to PN.

The Swedish are selling AWACS and EW equipment to PAF.

The Americans.....well you know the drill.

Considering this logic, Russia only sold some Transport helos and a bunch of previous generation engines to power an aircraft that is not even close compared to what we are buying.

So, which country do we chose??????

Your comparison is like comparing apples with oranges. Their is sea of difference between India's relation with Russia to west. I don't think i need to explain this here.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Why would India care if we rexport RD-93 in the JF-17? JF-17 is a third generation fighter that is underpowered and obsolete to anything we sell the IAF. If anything, India should be glad we did so Pak woudn't buy more F-16s.

Why giving teeth to toothless to increase chances to make someone infected with rabies. RD-93 is a proven engine and there is no need explain how it has given boost to the reliability of JF-17..

A chinese junk in that 3rd generation fighter would have degraded that fighter to 2.5 generation, making even level-flight, a challenging task.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

can you tell me any instance when India and pakistan have fought with the same weapons or have same weapons ?

(1) Leander class frigate
(2) Milan ATGM
(3) AK-47
(4) Agaosta are direct presiders to Scorpene
(5) MICA
and many more

 

[p2prada]

Your comparison is like comparing apples with oranges. Their is sea of difference between India's relation with Russia to west. I don't think i need to explain this here.

Brilliant assertion. And why is there a sea of difference??

Does that mean, the west can sell to both countries while Russia can only sell to India?

And we stop $20-30Billion worth of deals with Russia simply because they sold some engines worth $100million to Pak till date.

 

[p2prada]

One of the selection criteria in the tender is that the fighter's radar must have an active phased array radar with a target detection range of at least 130 kilometers (about 80 miles).

I wonder if this is for a 3m2 RCS.

 

[Vladimir79]

Why giving teeth to toothless to increase chances to make someone infected with rabies. RD-93 is a proven engine and there is no need explain how it has given boost to the reliability of JF-17..

A chinese junk in that 3rd generation fighter would have degraded that fighter to 2.5 generation, making even level-flight, a challenging task.

If that is your criteria for who should win MMRCA then Russia wins hands down. All contenders have supplied more to Pakistan than we have.

 

[AJSINGH]

Only because Mig-35 has 3-D TVC technology doesn't means it is the most manuverable aircraft, EF-2K,MKI, Rafale, SH and SV are also highly manuverable. Don't forget that EF-2K also supercruises.
Also don't forget every plane is driven by a man and their is a level of g-limit the pilot, airframe of the plane and the loadout on the plane can handle.

Dude no offence but what are you smoking. Russians are nowhere close to the yankees AESA radars, forget russian the aren't even close to west european countries. Americans are undisputed leaders when it comes to semiconductors, high speed microprocessor, software and machining. All the above factors are regared as primary factors if you wish to build a AESA. Even west european countries which produce a good radar(in comparasion to russia) themself haven't yet mastered the AESA concept.


I highly doubt those figures for a simple reason higher the power more the amount of cooling required. ausairpower.net tend to hype things. In AESA just base power is not important, things like freqency hopping, beam sharping, LPI, etc... matter the most and also don't forget the algorithm and microprocessor used. The article clearly states if and only if fitted with transistor technology permitting 15 Watts/channel or more, as proposed by NIIR Phazotron then and only then it will outperform the N035 Irbis-E (Su-35BM) but the fact remains that such TR module remains on paper and current russian TR module gives power rating about 5 watts. If you had read the original article completely then it clearly specifies that Zhuk AE is comparable only to 1st generation American AESA. Russia also lacks behind in the field of packaging.
Give me some time i will give give an detailed differnce between radar available.

the fact is that nothing is more agile than the Mig 35 , u can say whatever about other aircraft ,EF2K super cruises ,that is useless as of now because super cruise is very limited ,at specific level and at specific payload ,it can super cruise , not afeature to boast about , even raptor cannot boast that it can do 100% super cruise

dude read ,my post again , A parametric analysis and power aperture modelling is performed on the Zhuk ASE, which is a scaled up version of the Zhuk AE following the model of the Zhuk MSFE built for the Mig 35. The Fulcrum sized Zhuk ASE radar with existing Russian transmit receive module technology will deliver around 60 percent higher raw power aperture performance compared to US APG-79 (F/A-18E/F BII) and APG-81 (JSF) class radars,. there u go ,ni IF AND ONLT IF . it is already in trials . do not under estimate russian radar because that Zhuk ASE radar is the first version which already matches the American AESA radar ,upgrades are bound to come rather by the time first Mig 35 reaches India , second version will be out surpassing the American radar , plus Russia still has a censored press espicially under putin , they do not release exact specification about their sensitive technology . America does not even know the radar signature of Su 30MKi bars radar

P.S- EVEN RAF ADMITTED THAT SU 30MKI IS MORE AGILE THAN THE EF

 

[AJSINGH]

(1) Leander class frigate
(2) Milan ATGM
(3) AK-47
(4) Agaosta are direct presiders to Scorpene
(5) MICA
and many more

AK-47 does not make any difference ,Milan ATGM , those are small weapons
about Frigate we have a very advance verision ,Scorpene , why IN chose scorpene is because it has an edge over Presiders .