MMRCA news and discussions.

[RPK]

GE plans to source parts from India for F-16 engine IDRW.ORG

General Electric (GE), which is in contention as the engine supplier for the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contract of the IAF with three of its engines, is keen on sourcing components from Indian industry.

GE said, it will manufacture, assemble and test the engine, if any of its partner wins the contract, at the Hindusthan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). The global engine manufacturing behemoth said it will get many of its engine components manufactured by local firms. GE’s F110-GE-132 turbofan engine powers the F-16 IN, which Lockheed Martin is seeking to sell to India.
The F-16 IN is one of the contenders for the MMRCA contract for the supply of 126 aircraft. The F110-GE-132 turbofan engine developed by the GE, and which will power the F-16 IN, was originally developed for the United Arab Emirates F-16E/F. The engine has a thrust of 32,000 pounds, which is considered as little on the higher side for a small aircraft like the F-16. This extra power makes it possible for the F-16 IN to carry more armaments.

More than 3,000 F110 engines have been ordered since the US Air Force first selected the engine in 1984. Till, now over 3,000 of these engines have been mounted on various airframes including the F14, F15 and F-16, since 1984.

“The firm will tailor the engine for Indian configurations,” said Philip G Woniger, program manager, F110-GE-132, GE Aviation. Customisations for the engines that will power the F-16 IN will include durability core.

The engine produces 170 reports that guide the engine maintainers.

 

[ppgj]

Why would India go for SV? It is single engine which means loss in case of failure. It costs $80 million which is far more expensive than Russian offer. Pakistan fields similar aerocraft. There is no infrastructure or commanality in the current or future fleet. It will never be carrier capable. It has no TVC. The production line is coming to an end which will mean little support in coming years. The current orders at LM are already backlogged for several years. The radar has no weather mapping mode delaying orders even further.

no vladimir i did not support it if you read my post. it was in respect to a specific question by TK where he makes a point of PAF knowing SV well and so IAF should not go for it. i personally feel the order should be split between mig-35 and rafalle (for high altitude operations). i agree with you on the point of infrastucture, training etc. besides the fulcrums are the most agile to date.

 

[A.V.]

the IAF has constantly denied the split they claim all 126 will be bought from the same make but the contract stipulates the purchase of additional 74 later on so if the iaf needs it can do away with the 74 and get a fresh tender/or choose from the existing ones for the rest 74/80/54 to fill up the numbers of falling sqdrms

 

[ppgj]

the IAF has constantly denied the split they claim all 126 will be bought from the same make but the contract stipulates the purchase of additional 74 later on so if the iaf needs it can do away with the 74 and get a fresh tender/or choose from the existing ones for the rest 74/80/54 to fill up the numbers of falling sqdrms

IAF may be denying it for the present. but one never knows. also if india, say hypothetically decides on mig 35, will they be able to supply those in the required time particularly in view of mig official saying they can only start 2013 and onwards which will bring us to the point how will we get the numbers? so a split will ensure the numbers and india can wait for mig. anyway it was my wish.

 

[Vladimir79]

IAF may be denying it for the present. but one never knows. also if india, say hypothetically decides on mig 35, will they be able to supply those in the required time particularly in view of mig official saying they can only start 2013 and onwards which will bring us to the point how will we get the numbers? so a split will ensure the numbers and india can wait for mig. anyway it was my wish.

Sokol factory does not have many backlogged orders since Yak-130 was shifted to Irkust so they can put full efforts into new production line. Now that the state has secured orders line production is fully funded for new equipment. IIRC $600 million has been spent on plant modernisation specifically for this and MiG-29K lines. We are not going to be making but a couple dozen planes so we can get HAL up to speed even quicker than Western companies due to our extensive bilateral relationship. You might have a one year gap but we can get HAL production up faster. Despite IAFs desire to get production rolling in 2012, I doubt they would even sign the contract until 2011. No matter what IAF decides, our line will be ready to roll.

Not to mention the new radar mode requirement will slow up Western contenders by a year.

 

[arya]

hi
i think the best machine should win the race and all of you kknow rafale is the best in all ways if we are looking for long time these planes can provide us more option and a good fire power

we can take 126 rafale and after we can take 70 su35 for our force as we all know lca will be ready in near future we have to chose the best of best and thats is alos ture we have to use these deal in our favour these is not just a fighter plane deal as every time USA say best in his interest

 

[ppgj]

Sokol factory does not have many backlogged orders since Yak-130 was shifted to Irkust so they can put full efforts into new production line. Now that the state has secured orders line production is fully funded for new equipment. IIRC $600 million has been spent on plant modernisation specifically for this and MiG-29K lines. We are not going to be making but a couple dozen planes so we can get HAL up to speed even quicker than Western companies due to our extensive bilateral relationship. You might have a one year gap but we can get HAL production up faster. Despite IAFs desire to get production rolling in 2012, I doubt they would even sign the contract until 2011. No matter what IAF decides, our line will be ready to roll.

Not to mention the new radar mode requirement will slow up Western contenders by a year.

if it can happen the way you see it then it should be ok. i just get a feeling that migs may scrape thro' the mrca particularly 'cos hal is manufacturing a series 3 RD-33 and mig 29k have the same radar.so issues like commonality, infrastructure and training pilots are taken care.

 

[AJSINGH]

AJSINGH,
Can you tell me why any combination including Mig-35 is good and a combination not including Mig but american birds will be a bad one.
Be it any jet, logistic problem will be encountered by all.

There are two answers for your question
Technical aspect of the aircraft and the strings attached which comes which each aircraft
For the technical aspect ,agility- nothing in the world matches the Mig 35 because 3-D TVC technology surpasses F-22 raptor
Radar -Agreed it is in development but the final version will be better than the S or SV,second only to Raptor . A parametric analysis and power aperture modelling is performed on the Zhuk ASE, which is a scaled up version of the Zhuk AE following the model of the Zhuk MSFE built for the Mig 35. The Fulcrum sized Zhuk ASE radar with existing Russian transmit receive module technology will deliver around 60 percent higher raw power aperture performance compared to US APG-79 (F/A-18E/F BII) and APG-81 (JSF) class radars, and fitted with transistor technology permitting 15 Watts/channel or more, as proposed by NIIR Phazotron, it will outperform the N035 Irbis-E (Su-35BM) and all currently deployed US fighter radars other than the APG-77(V)2 (F-22A Raptor). The earliest feasible IOC for the Zhuk ASE on the Flanker is estimated at 2010. People who say that Mig 35 radar is inferior to SH or SV dont know this fact
Weapons - R-77m archer potential will fully used by Mig 35 radar,plus we are investing into AWACS killer so that will be used with the Mig 35
The R-27EP is dangerous because it out-ranges AMRAAM, and you probably won't know it's coming before it's too late. Fortunately, only the Russians (and maybe the Ukrainians) currently have this missile.

The R-27AE is dangerous for the same reasons as the R-27EP plus it won't stop homing if you shut down your radar.
The R-77 is nasty. It is superior to the AMRAAM in range and maneuverability (especially sustained maneuverability). The US currently doesn't have a countermeasure fielded against eh R-77,The R-77 is _better_ than the AMRAAM . It has more kinetic energy and less drag due to its short, low drag, wings and its "trellis" tail surfaces which provide better manuverability than conventional fins. This means that the R-77 is more manueverable (and has more energy over its envelope) than the AMRAAM. This, barring suceptability to ECM, probably makes it better in head-on attacks than the AMRAAM. The R-77 is slated for export (as the RVV-AE). Though Vympel has completed the development of the R-77, Russian defense cuts have (so far) stalled production.

And if that wasn't bad enough there's the R-73, which really has no match in the West, suprpassing AAMs like the AIM-9 in all respects. (The AIM-9X, however, will close the gap somwehat on its introduction- after the year 2000.) The R-73, coupled with the HMD targeting system used on the Su-27 and MiG-29 is a very worrying (and potent) visual range weapons system.
Speaking only of "smarts" the R-77 is probably roughly comparable to the AMRAAM. Both will have no problem with ground clutter in most situations. Both will have the same vulnerability to chaff. The R-77's maneuverability will give it an edge against a jinking target, especially if it was a long range shot. The AMRAAM probably has a slight advantage in ECCM, but both missiles are most effectively countered by the same basic techniques (ECM and expendables). The R-77 on the other hand, has a clear advantage in range.
and Novator k-100 with range of 400km and 300km ..known awacs killer..nothing like that exsist in NATO weaponry

It was recently revealed that Russia is testing a new gliding guided bomb, as well as a new laser-guided bomb.



Russia is currently testing a new laser-guided bomb, the KAB-250L (seen here in the foreground), which is similar in appearance and in characteristics to the US GBU-12 Paveway II LGB.
Photo by Miroslav Gyurosi

The UPAB-1500KR ("izdyelye K-070" or "product K-070") is the first Russian gliding bomb. It was based on the KAB-1500KR guided bomb, with folded wings added to achieve a gliding capability. According to Russian sources, the range of UPAB-1500KR is 50-70 km, when dropped from high altitude and at high speed. The target picture is transmitted from a datalink on the bomb and received by the Raduga (Moscow, Russia) APK-8 datalink pod attached to the fuselage of the host aircraft. When the bomb nears its target, the aircrew marks the target, and the bomb is then attacking it independently, at which point it is locked onto the target.
The other new bomb being tested is the KAB-250L ("izdyelye K-045" or "product K-045") laser-guided bomb (LGB), similar in appearance and in characteristics to the US GBU-12 Paveway II LGB. Although there is not much information available on the KAB-250L, the bomb was recently developed by the FGUP State"s Scientific-Production Entity "Region." It has the same seeker as the KAB-500L/KAB-1500L though in a modernized form. The bomb is controlled by front all-moving surfaces, while the tails are fixed. It is designed for export, as well as for domestic use. Testing of these bombs is being conducted by the 929th State's Aviation Test Center in Akhtubinsk, Russia.
speaking about A2G i agree russia has not much to offer but they are developing SDB..with the help of india...there is a reason why we are investing in russian a2a and a2g weapons ...

 

[AJSINGH]

So what Pakistan is also using F-16, the birds they are using are simply no match to what is being offered to us.
In past their are several instance where we have used equipments that were already in service in Pakistani armed forces.

Let's get straight to what the IAF and Defence Ministry don't like at all about the F-16. The fact that there is a steady phase-out/replacement programme underway in the US, despite Lockheed-Martin's repeated insistence that there are four large busy production lines. The fact that the US isn't buying anymore Falcons is enough to put serious doubts into India's mind. Picking up early on this, Lockheed has managed to convincingly drive home the point that the F-16 is the logical bridge to the F-35 Lightning II, though this is viewed by the IAF as too crafty. It's almost a fake pledge, considering the gargantual clearances and procedures that would be necessary for India to be considered a buyer of a fifth generation fighter plane. Lockheed's pitch about the F-35 has therefore backfired in parts. A senior IAF officer, recently retired, says "While we were initially only doubtful, the F-35 pitch proved beyond doubt that Lockheed is trying to squeeze the last few drops out of its F-16 production lines, and the Indian requirement is too mouth-watering for them to ignore." The fact that the aircraft is operated by a lot of other countries, ironically, has a minor backlash effect as well on the IAF -- some of the top brass feel that an ambitious new purchase like the MMRCA contract, should be for a unique and exclusive aircraft, not one that is owned and operated by a huge number of other countries (including Pakistan -- the radar signature debate holds credence, incidentally), even though they do reluctantly agree that under the bonnet, the F-16IN is hardly comparable to previous variants of the same type. Finally, relations with the Obama administration have cooled considerably compared to the phonecall-a-minute diplomacy with Bush Jr, and this itself has somewhat blunted the throbbing needle pointing to Washington, even though the President has made it clear that he plans to keep up the evolving strategic dialogue with India.

 

[AJSINGH]

I would say so, SV use different radar, engine, an all color glass cockpit, a new improved EW suite and infra-red search. The customization option will also enable us to replace the skin and have more percentage of composites. Now after this i don't see how pakistan can get all info about SV just looking at their birds.

america is updating the PAF falcons into block60 upgrade
so we can expect we almost the same equipmet on PAF

 

[AJSINGH]

your point is good but all AFs always have ways of knowing the capabilities of enemy AF aircrafts. PAF trains and has even operated in war times for the syrian AF so it is safe to assume they know our migs well enough. likewise india knows the f-16 via israel. actually it is all open book. every one knows everyone else and the only thing that will decide is the pilot training and tactics. if IAF feels SV is good they may go for it.

about PAF kowing about F-16 that is true , the have bee operating that aircraft from early 1980 , like we know Mig 29 best because we have been operating from 1980s ,even after 10 years of Sukhoi 30 MKI we are still forming its operational doctrine and tactics , so basically if go for SV we wont have any edge over PAF

 

[AJSINGH]

So what Pakistan is also using F-16, the birds they are using are simply no match to what is being offered to us.
In past their are several instance where we have used equipments that were already in service in Pakistani armed forces.

can you tell me any instance when India and pakistan have fought with the same weapons or have same weapons ?

 

[Vladimir79]

hi
i think the best machine should win the race and all of you kknow rafale is the best in all ways if we are looking for long time these planes can provide us more option and a good fire power

we can take 126 rafale and after we can take 70 su35 for our force as we all know lca will be ready in near future we have to chose the best of best and thats is alos ture we have to use these deal in our favour these is not just a fighter plane deal as every time USA say best in his interest

What good is the Rafale compared to MiG-35? RBE2-AA has less capability than Zhuk-AE, in fact, Thales won't even give specifics except saying 50% more range than RBE2 which is low. This indicates problems with development. It has no TVC, OLS, or compatibility with Russian weapons. You would have to buy many new inventory when MiG-35 is compatible with current IAF and any Western weapons wanted to add to it. Rafale is .2 Mach slower and costs far more than MiG-35. Rafale self defence advantage will be lost with new Italian ECM pods and lazer/IR sensors.

The only real advantage of Rafale is superior bomb truck. MiG-35 is clearly the most dominate air superiority fighter out of the whole competition. RBE2-AA isn't being installed on French Rafales until 2012 and would not be able to meet Indian orders until at least 2013, with new weather mapping mode required it might be even later. Rafale is just too expensive and the radar is suspect.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Tell you, Mig-35 is the one which is favored by most of the Indians including IAF. Before deciding to go for global tender, IAF was keen on buying Mig-29M1/M2, but changed mind. Transparency in procurement was minor reason, change in Russian attitude was major. And you did unprecedented gesture by allowing resale of RD-93 to pakistan. Take my word, Mig-35 may be the favorite baby, but she,we and you will loose for the sole reason non other than mentioned above.

 

[Vladimir79]

Tell you, Mig-35 is the one which is favored by most of the Indians including IAF. Before deciding to go for global tender, IAF was keen on buying Mig-29M1/M2, but changed mind. Transparency in procurement was minor reason, change in Russian attitude was major. And you did unprecedented gesture by allowing resale of RD-93 to pakistan. Take my word, Mig-35 may be the favorite baby, but she,we and you will loose for the sole reason non other than mentioned above.

Why would India care if we rexport RD-93 in the JF-17? JF-17 is a third generation fighter that is underpowered and obsolete to anything we sell the IAF. If anything, India should be glad we did so Pak woudn't buy more F-16s.

 

[tharikiran]

can you tell me any instance when India and pakistan have fought with the same weapons or have same weapons ?

I am not sure if we have fought any wars with the same weapons
but doesn't the PAF and IAF both have Mirages.

Of course the PAF mirages are old.
I am just trying to answer with regards to common platforms used by both the countries.This obviously contradicts my earlier post where I said- Combat aircraft is not a ordinary weapon system which can be had by both the countries of the same type.

So, both India and Pak have Mirages.How different are the Indian and Pak Versions ?Is India having a edge purely based on tactics and training ??

Now, I would like to know how different is this scenario with India acquiring F-16's ? Pak has some old F-16's and if we get, they will be pretty advanced version.

Of course AJ has given reasons as to why F-16 is not preferred by IAF.

 

[ahmedsid]

I am not sure if we have fought any wars with the same weapons
but doesn't the PAF and IAF both have Mirages.

Of course the PAF mirages are old.
I am just trying to answer with regards to common platforms used by both the countries.This obviously contradicts my earlier post where I said- Combat aircraft is not a ordinary weapon system which can be had by both the countries of the same type.

So, both India and Pak have Mirages.How different are the Indian and Pak Versions ?Is India having a edge purely based on tactics and training ??

Now, I would like to know how different is this scenario with India acquiring F-16's ? Pak has some old F-16's and if we get, they will be pretty advanced version.

Of course AJ has given reasons as to why F-16 is not preferred by IAF.

The Indian mirages and Pak Mirages cannot be compared at any level!!!!!! The PAF has developed a highly capable training regime with their F16s, and have combat experience with it. We cannot ignore this fact. The F16IN will be different only with the avionics etc, it will still be a F16, a Heavy F16 at that.

It takes a lot for a plane to be brought into an Air Forces fold, IAF flying F16s again PAF F16s will not be a game changer or anything, F16IN is superior, but still PAF has a set in strategy with theirs, especially after the MLUs and Blk 52 come. Dont forget that, their F16s wont be in this state forever, they will be upgraded to a decent level, if not Blk60 or 70 level.

I would say, Never go for F16, if you really got to go for an US plane ( i wouldnt recommend) then go for F18. The Rafale/EF/Mig 35 are the ones to look at seriously. The US has never been a consistent supplier to anyone.

 

[ppgj]

Is India having a edge purely based on tactics and training ?

if i were to quote an example 1971 war stands out. pakistan had then the most advanced sabres and india was fighting them with british gnats which by today's standard are not even equal to our trainer hawks and what were the results? gnats had a field day. gnats after those kills were called 'SABRE SLAYERS'.
it was purely pilot skill and tactics.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

america is updating the PAF falcons into block60 upgrade
so we can expect we almost the same equipmet on PAF

I heard something like this for first time? Do you have a link to back your claim?

 

[tharikiran]

Don't you all think that India should go for a advanced platform.
Basic airframe for F-16/Mig29 is very old. There were news reports about Pak getting Euro fighter from Turkey.It seems there may be a chance for Turkey to offer EF to PAK. Don't you guys think, PAK will not be stuck with F-16 for ever. At some point it will be having access to modern aircraft in the next 15 years.

Our current acquisition should be able to match it and should be purchased keeping those things in mind too.