MMRCA news and discussions.

[AJSINGH]

know that friend. and mig 35 is not a new jet. it is an enhanced mig-29. that is why ioc is not something one needs to worry.

you are right to an extent. russians are good in engineering and not so in avionics. they allow it to be customised and that is how su 30mki happened. it won't be a surprise if the same happens to mig if IAF goes for it. now that said i am not a fanboy of any. i trust our AF will go for what is best.

you are wrong my friend , if in aero india 2009 they would have displayed Mig 29M2 , then it would have been enhanced version of Mig 29
but Mig 35 is totally new
with new avionics , airframe , weapons etc

 

[AJSINGH]

The Russians could not offer the old MIG-29 to the Indians for the MMRCA tender.

So what did they do ?? - they took the old MIG-29 platform, slapped some updated avionics with sexy digital screens, put it a new AESA radar that they are still testing, and changed the engine to include TVC. Its still an old Soviet maintenance intensive airframe design.

Then they re-badged it as an "MIG-35". Its really a MIG-29 with a couple of incremental upgrades that have not been proven out completely.

The MIG-29 platform has probably been around for 30 years or more, just like the F-16s.

Why should a country like India which is spending so much cash on the big ticket item like this go for a 30 year old airframe design when you have much newer and better options ??

One of the principal draws of the MiG-35 is commonality of inventory type. Alongside the Indian Navy's MiG-29Ks and the IAF's upgraded MiG-29s, a lot of senior MoD officials believe the MiG-35 would be a sensible choice that would translate into real savings in infrastructure and trainign costs. The IAF holds its MiG-29s in high esteem. In fact, the MiG-29M/M2 and subsequently the MiG-35, were developed based in part on informal but organised feedback from IAF pilots on what was required to make the MiG-29 a truly multipurpose airplane. The IAF says it is eagerly awaiting more information and a demonstration of the FGA-35 variant of the Phazotron Zhuk-AE AESA radar, yet untested. In demonstration flights, IAF pilots have also been given an expansive look at the MiG-35's highly unique optronic locator system (OLS), which one IAF pilot (who flew the MiG-35 at Aero India 2007) said surpassed similar gear on some of the other aircraft. The OLS consists of an infrared search and track sensor in on the nose of the aircraft, and a ground attack sensor fitted next to one of the intakes. The IAF has been given demonstrations of the RD-33MK turbofan, and is very pleased with what Klimov has managed to achieve with it, against some fairly difficult deadline and legacy odds, though the IAF and MoD were terribly irked and continue to be so with Russia's decision to sell jet engines to Pakistan for the JF programme -- something that could spell real trouble in the final decision (Remember, other countries sell to Pakistan as well, but India reserves great expectations from Russia, especially since Moscow has articulated these loyalties more than once). Rosoboronexport has managed to convince the IAF quite effectively that the MiG-35 is indeed a quantum technological leap from the legacy Fulcrum. Politically, India continues to have enormous strategic ties with Russia, notwithstanding a certain fraying in recent times. Russia has always supported India politically during operations, and has never dared to question India's use of its equipment. Finally, the Russians have the most well-entrenched and experienced lobby within the IAF and government. And extravagant acts of politico-strategic altruism are not unprecedented when it comes to Indo-Russian defence ties.

 

[AJSINGH]

Given the close ties between India & Russia in the military field, I dont think that India could have rejected the Russian MMRCA entry even if they were not interested in it. Its just too political !!

My feeling is that the IAF guys will want a more reliable newer platform with state of the art avionics, proven AESA radar, and easy maintenance, high reliability, and with highly reliable spare supplies.

can not agree with you on that . Mig 35 is fully developed and will continue to get upgrades infact the Zhuk ASEA radar is better A parametric analysis and power aperture modelling is performed on the Zhuk ASE, which is a scaled up version of the Zhuk AE following the model of the Zhuk MSFE built for the Mig 35. The Fulcrum sized Zhuk ASE radar with existing Russian transmit receive module technology will deliver around 60 percent higher raw power aperture performance compared to US APG-79 (F/A-18E/F BII) and APG-81 (JSF) class radars,. there u go ,ni IF AND ONLT IF . it is already in trials . do not under estimate russian radar because that Zhuk ASE radar is the first version which already matches the American AESA radar ,upgrades are bound to come rather by the time first Mig 35 reaches India , second version will be out surpassing the American radar , plus Russia still has a censored press espicially under putin , they do not release exact specification about their sensitive technology . America does not even know the radar signature of Su 30MKi bars radar

 

[AJSINGH]

even if SH or rafale or any other aircraft wins the technical trial , most of those aircraft will fail in TOT , lockheed martin says that SAAB can not give 100% TOT because Gripen has 16% american parts ,Yankees have not given TOT to any country yet why it will give it to India , Rafale is accusing lockheed martin of getting unfair advantage by getting some paperwork
EF is sourced from my countries , the logistics would be terrible

 

[ppgj]

Given the close ties between India & Russia in the military field, I dont think that India could have rejected the Russian MMRCA entry even if they were not interested in it. Its just too political !!

are you saying GOI, for political considerations will compromise national security!! that is a wild imagination.

 

[Vladimir79]

To all the Mig-35 supporters,
Can you people tell me why Mig-35 is coming as open architecture platform?
As per me either its electronics/avionics are not yet developed or are not upto mark.

Are you serious? You really think it is undeveloped b/c it is open architecture? :coffee_spray:

The plane is going to be around for 40+ years thanks to extended service life... it is going to need an upgrade in some time. It might also be nice to switch out Western weapons on it too.

 

[abhi]

Dear All,

If the new mig 35 is so much similar to the existing mig 29 (after upgrades) then please outline what new capabilities (except extended range and increase in no. of hardpoints) will this aircraft bring to us which over and above what we have with mig 29?

Pls don't point out i) the engines( with/without tvc); ii) the radar; iii) newly developed weapons which can also be installed in the current series.

In my opinion MMRCA is all about adding new capabilities at a lower cost!

 

[Dark Sorrow]

why Mig 35 comes with open architecture is because IAF wants that way , plus that feature depends on the customer also , that does not mean it has inferior avionics or radar or anything
Mig 35 just allows the end user to modify the aircraft specifically according to its needs

Dude, IAF never asked for an open architecture platform and not even for customization. It is the russian offering an open architecture platform. Americans, french and swedish are also offering customization but no one except Russian are offering open architecture platorm, why so !!! It will take almost an decade for IAF fill such short-comings. In modern world no combat aircraft has an open architecture. Only the planes that don't have developed electronics/avionics offer such facility.
Russians offering open architecture only shows that they are not interested in completely developing the plane. After such behaviour how can we be assured that russia will be self intrested in upgrading the aircraft. If we select Mig the we would have to pay russia to develop technologies for upgrade. The cost of upgrade would be different. Tell me a thing why should we pay/finance russia for their technological development.

that does not mean that russians dont have any good EW equiment

Compaired to western counter-parts russian EW equiment is inferior. This was the reason why we Su-30's EW suite for changed by IAF. EW pod was imported from israel, RWR was replaced by indian one and the software programming for EW Suite was rewritten by DRDO. The MC and RC were also replaced.
The fact is russians lag behind in field of electronics.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Are you serious? You really think it is undeveloped b/c it is open architecture? :coffee_spray:

The plane is going to be around for 40+ years thanks to extended service life... it is going to need an upgrade in some time. It might also be nice to switch out Western weapons on it too.

Your post doesn't answer my question. Yes i believe that mig 35 is in development(i.e. undeveloped) and not only me almost every other article about Mig-35 says the same. And for your last statement regaring switching to western weapon i would like to say that IN had a huge nightmare integrating Barak on Delhi class destroyer.

 

[Vladimir79]

The Russians could not offer the old MIG-29 to the Indians for the MMRCA tender.

So what did they do ?? - they took the old MIG-29 platform, slapped some updated avionics with sexy digital screens, put it a new AESA radar that they are still testing, and changed the engine to include TVC. Its still an old Soviet maintenance intensive airframe design.

Actually we finished testing an AESA which is more than the MMRCA requirement while most of the competitors are still working on thiers. We are building an even better AESA for latter design which will blow away any competition. The MiG-35 has far more advantages over MiG-29 than what you list. RD-33MK is practically a new engine. 10% more thrust, TVC, 2.5 times more service life and smokeless. 360 OLS. The airframe has been extended from 20 to 40 years. RAM coating and composites have been added. It is a less maintenance intensive airframe than any of the competitors.

Then they re-badged it as an "MIG-35". Its really a MIG-29 with a couple of incremental upgrades that have not been proven out completely.

The MIG-29 platform has probably been around for 30 years or more, just like the F-16s.

Why should a country like India which is spending so much cash on the big ticket item like this go for a 30 year old airframe design when you have much newer and better options ??

MiG-35 has about as much in common with MiG-29 as F-18 has in common with the Super Hornet. They are both practically new aerocraft. The Gripen is 35% 4th gen Amerikan in technology. What difference does it make if it has commonality when the performance is improved? The only way you will really get anything NEW is if you get a 5th gen fighter. Maybe you should go buy F-35 if that is what you are looking for.

 

[AJSINGH]

Dude, IAF never asked for an open architecture platform and not even for customization. It is the russian offering an open architecture platform. Americans, french and swedish are also offering customization but no one except Russian are offering open architecture platorm, why so !!! It will take almost an decade for IAF fill such short-comings. In modern world no combat aircraft has an open architecture. Only the planes that don't have developed electronics/avionics offer such facility.
Russians offering open architecture only shows that they are not interested in completely developing the plane. After such behaviour how can we be assured that russia will be self intrested in upgrading the aircraft. If we select Mig the we would have to pay russia to develop technologies for upgrade. The cost of upgrade would be different. Tell me a thing why should we pay/finance russia for their technological development.


Compaired to western counter-parts russian EW equiment is inferior. This was the reason why we Su-30's EW suite for changed by IAF. EW pod was imported from israel, RWR was replaced by indian one and the software programming for EW Suite was rewritten by DRDO. The MC and RC were also replaced.
The fact is russians lag behind in field of electronics.

not true , when IAF bought Su 30MKI , it asked for open architecture because India was itself developing EW suite called " mayawani " and " Tarang " , India wanted to instill its own system in Su 30MKi , it is an opurtunity to integrates indeginious system in the aircraft . after this Mig 35 is also offering open architecture because it suits Indian needs plus IAF will modify any aircraft for that matter , be it SH Rafale OR EF , Do not doubt the ability of Russians in avionics for example In 1998 the crash of YF -22 was because of failure in fly by wire system , where as when Su 27 was in development russians has saw that probelm comming therefore were able to solve that problem in Su 27 , so that it self speak of the ability of Russian electronics school and if that is not enough
have you heard about Buran Space Shuttle , it had launched , orbited the earth , landed ( with wind comming 40 degree to the runway ) all by itself ie automatic , and that was in 1980s . that itself speak of russian electronics system , and Buran has 12 kb of memeory , NASA is not able to do the same after spending millions of dollars

 

[Vladimir79]

Your post doesn't answer my question. Yes i believe that mig 35 is in development(i.e. undeveloped) and not only me almost every other article about Mig-35 says the same. And for your last statement regaring switching to western weapon i would like to say that IN had a huge nightmare integrating Barak on Delhi class destroyer.

MiG-35 has 1533-MIL databus which makes integrating Western weapons a piece of cake, not like the Barak nightmare. The MiG-35 has had many of its components tested in other frames like MiG-29K and MiG-29OVT for years. Zhuk-AE has been certified for production. There are 10 airframes which have been used to evaluate the technologies and two completetly integrated for MMRCA field tests. If it fails field tests then India will not buy it. It will perform up to spec or we wouldn't be in the tender or buying it for ourselves.

Your comments about open architecture infering there is something wrong with it is absurd. No one wants a closed architecture aerocraft.

 

[AJSINGH]

plus HAL is interested to develop upgrades of Mig 35 on its own with ofcourse of russian help

 

[AJSINGH]

Compaired to western counter-parts russian EW equiment is inferior. This was the reason why we Su-30's EW suite for changed by IAF. EW pod was imported from israel, RWR was replaced by indian one and the software programming for EW Suite was rewritten by DRDO. The MC and RC were also replaced.
The fact is russians lag behind in field of electronics.

that was done only to bring Indian equiment in Su 30MKi , that particular aircraft was modified very much to Indian needs , if u ask USA to modify SH or SV , they will " hell no " , that is the ofering with the Russian weapons , they let you modify it according to Indian needs , why Isralie pod was bough because it had to serve specific purpose for IAF , that does not mean that Su original EW is inferior

 

[Dark Sorrow]

can not agree with you on that . Mig 35 is fully developed and will continue to get upgrades infact the Zhuk ASEA radar is better A parametric analysis and power aperture modelling is performed on the Zhuk ASE, which is a scaled up version of the Zhuk AE following the model of the Zhuk MSFE built for the Mig 35. The Fulcrum sized Zhuk ASE radar with existing Russian transmit receive module technology will deliver around 60 percent higher raw power aperture performance compared to US APG-79 (F/A-18E/F BII) and APG-81 (JSF) class radars,. there u go ,ni IF AND ONLT IF . it is already in trials . do not under estimate russian radar because that Zhuk ASE radar is the first version which already matches the American AESA radar ,upgrades are bound to come rather by the time first Mig 35 reaches India , second version will be out surpassing the American radar , plus Russia still has a censored press espicially under putin , they do not release exact specification about their sensitive technology . America does not even know the radar signature of Su 30MKi bars radar

Singh, please read the full article from where you have copied the piece. It clearly says that the Zhuk AE radar is compariable to 1st generation American AESA Radar. As a matter of fact Mig-35 is not yet fully developed but under development. Finally there is no big deal in getting radar signature for a radar. As you know radars emit radio waves and every radio wave has a unique frequency. On this frequency the signature is found out. What matter most is ECM and ECCM capability.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

LM is ready to customize SV.
The only reason MKI EW Suite was modified because it wa7 not upto mark.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

plus HAL is interested to develop upgrades of Mig 35 on its own with ofcourse of russian help

You have made this up,didn't you. HAL doesn't have the capability to develop anything by themself. To the max. HAL may assemble by looking at blue prints.

 

[Sabir]

You have made this up,didn't you. HAL doesn't have the capability to develop anything by themself. To the max. HAL may assemble by looking at blue prints.

You used to ride tri-cycle when you were a kid. It would be stupidity if anyone says you still do the same....! Isn't it ?

 

[Dark Sorrow]

The post has been deleted.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

You used to ride tri-cycle when you were a kid. It would be stupidity if anyone says you still do the same....! Isn't it ?

I wouldn't say the same regaring HAL. As per my knowledge HAL is not involved in any research nor does it has its own R&D unit.
The thing i said is quoted from an retired IAF official.
By the way i directly learned to drive car and never rode a bi/tri-cycle.