MMRCA news and discussions.

[Yusuf]

AJ, Tamil
SAAB would not have been invited to compete for the MRCA if it was not going to be selected based on the Bofors issue.
But yes, it does not offer any geo political leverage and thats why its not going to be in the contention.

MiG 35 has slim chance as its still not production ready. Recent articles have shown that it will be quite a while before that happens. India has no time to lose. It needs MRCA now and the only ones in production are the amercan and european fighters. If you consider costs as a factor EF and Raph to out. Between the two American fighters, the SH has a better chance of winning.

Buying American planes makes sense in the current environment. Also the end user verification deal has also been finalized. so that is not a hindrance.

 

[Vladimir79]

MiG 35 has slim chance as its still not production ready. Recent articles have shown that it will be quite a while before that happens. India has no time to lose. It needs MRCA now and the only ones in production are the amercan and european fighters. If you consider costs as a factor EF and Raph to out. Between the two American fighters, the SH has a better chance of winning.

MMRCA is not going to be inducted until 2015. MiG-35 will be ready for state trials as ordered or it will not complete the tender. Sokol has been infused with the cash needed to complete the order. Your concerns are noted but not warrented.

 

[Yusuf]

MMRCA is not going to be inducted until 2015. MiG-35 will be ready for state trials as ordered or it will not complete the tender. Sokol has been infused with the cash needed to complete the order. Your concerns are noted but not warrented.

2015 is the slated arrival of the 5th gen fighter. The trial for the MRCA is already underway. I think if its all taken urgently we can see a numbers in India by 2015 rather than start by that time.

Also the problem is of Russian price fluctuation after signing of contracts and also the delays in various deals. Its hurting India. There is growing frustration in India about all that. Similar fate can happen to the MiG 35 which will hurt India as its force level is depleting.

 

[Vladimir79]

2015 is the slated arrival of the 5th gen fighter. The trial for the MRCA is already underway. I think if its all taken urgently we can see a numbers in India by 2015 rather than start by that time.

The MoD Minister AK Antony stated to parliament that 2015 was the expected induction. Extended Su-30MKI procurement seems to be filling the numbers gap.

Also the problem is of Russian price fluctuation after signing of contracts and also the delays in various deals. Its hurting India. There is growing frustration in India about all that. Similar fate can happen to the MiG 35 which will hurt India as its force level is depleting.

India continues to buy Russian fighters, I don't see any break in faith.

 

[crazy2020]

:2guns:

Just day before one more of the flyin coffins disintegrated and taking a life of a Air Force elite along with it. The count of planes are reducing by the Numbers every day. So we can't just wait and watch. My personal Opinion for all the Six crafts to be selected are as follows.

Mig-35: Altough a Good Fighter but can't be seen in near future in production before 2014-15 we can't wait that long. so out of contention.

F-16: Altough US claim that it is the next gen of F-16 why wont use it themselves or upgrade their own previous F-16 to IN version. The only reason is that they are plannin to decomission there own F-16 once F-35 is fully on Production.So need of buying Junk. Plus the US Official will then get access to visit all the bases of IAF. whic is questionable. Because they are still not ready for full ToT.

F/A-18: If the planes where that gr8 the US Official would have iducted in AirForce instead of F-15. But it was not upto the mark.So instead of covering the billion they spent on a failed Plane they inducted it in Navy to aleast retrieve Some Cost.And now are exporting this plane to atleast make-up for their losses.

Jas- Grippen: A majestic MRA .It will be an asset to own this plane the only issue is that the US component present in the plane so the US government is not ready to Provide full ToT for this Machine.

Dassault Rafale:The french mean twin engine machine. A wonderful state of art plane with delta wing which could do wonder. One of the Front runners for the MMRCA deal since the IAF already used and more then satisfy with the mirages they have. Also to make it a point the french never delayed or provided faulty spares for the Mirage.Plus A promise by Dassault that after being selected the knocked out kit for the first 18 plane will be provided in a yrs time.

Eurofighter Thypoon: A gr8 plane with the cost on the higher side. Plus there is still loads of pending orders of planes to be delivered so by the time india getss their first knocked out version it will be 2015.

 

[Yusuf]

India continues to buy Russian equipment, but this deal offers the possibility of finding newer sources. Also a lot is at stake with this deal. The growing relations with America gives it a big edge. Plus American planes are right now in production and proven. I think more than anything else its the geopolitical consideration which will determine the final outcome.

 

[AJSINGH]

AJ, Tamil
SAAB would not have been invited to compete for the MRCA if it was not going to be selected based on the Bofors issue.
But yes, it does not offer any geo political leverage and thats why its not going to be in the contention.

MiG 35 has slim chance as its still not production ready. Recent articles have shown that it will be quite a while before that happens. India has no time to lose. It needs MRCA now and the only ones in production are the amercan and european fighters. If you consider costs as a factor EF and Raph to out. Between the two American fighters, the SH has a better chance of winning.

Buying American planes makes sense in the current environment. Also the end user verification deal has also been finalized. so that is not a hindrance.

for trials is different and for slecting that aircraft is different.It is very much possible that Gripen will lose out on the political decision.this not only said by me but also by our very own Cosmonaut Rakesh Sharma.he said the same thing to .I agree SH has better chance of winning .i think teh final decision will be between Mig 35 and SH .and if the both aircraft are equal in technical trials.political decision will be th winning factor .Also America is very particular to whom they see their arms so their end user aggrement will be not accpeted as it is done with the P-8I .sadly our politician dont know enough the real meaning of end user agrement .

 

[AJSINGH]

AJ, Tamil
SAAB would not have been invited to compete for the MRCA if it was not going to be selected based on the Bofors issue.
But yes, it does not offer any geo political leverage and thats why its not going to be in the contention.

MiG 35 has slim chance as its still not production ready. Recent articles have shown that it will be quite a while before that happens. India has no time to lose. It needs MRCA now and the only ones in production are the amercan and european fighters. If you consider costs as a factor EF and Raph to out. Between the two American fighters, the SH has a better chance of winning.

Buying American planes makes sense in the current environment. Also the end user verification deal has also been finalized. so that is not a hindrance.

:2guns:

Just day before one more of the flyin coffins disintegrated and taking a life of a Air Force elite along with it. The count of planes are reducing by the Numbers every day. So we can't just wait and watch. My personal Opinion for all the Six crafts to be selected are as follows.

Mig-35: Altough a Good Fighter but can't be seen in near future in production before 2014-15 we can't wait that long. so out of contention.

F-16: Altough US claim that it is the next gen of F-16 why wont use it themselves or upgrade their own previous F-16 to IN version. The only reason is that they are plannin to decomission there own F-16 once F-35 is fully on Production.So need of buying Junk. Plus the US Official will then get access to visit all the bases of IAF. whic is questionable. Because they are still not ready for full ToT.

F/A-18: If the planes where that gr8 the US Official would have iducted in AirForce instead of F-15. But it was not upto the mark.So instead of covering the billion they spent on a failed Plane they inducted it in Navy to aleast retrieve Some Cost.And now are exporting this plane to atleast make-up for their losses.

Jas- Grippen: A majestic MRA .It will be an asset to own this plane the only issue is that the US component present in the plane so the US government is not ready to Provide full ToT for this Machine.

Dassault Rafale:The french mean twin engine machine. A wonderful state of art plane with delta wing which could do wonder. One of the Front runners for the MMRCA deal since the IAF already used and more then satisfy with the mirages they have. Also to make it a point the french never delayed or provided faulty spares for the Mirage.Plus A promise by Dassault that after being selected the knocked out kit for the first 18 plane will be provided in a yrs time.

Eurofighter Thypoon: A gr8 plane with the cost on the higher side. Plus there is still loads of pending orders of planes to be delivered so by the time india getss their first knocked out version it will be 2015.

Rafale is good choice to but i would like to go with Mig 35 even though it is not finished because its a new aircraft specifically desgined for Indian MMRCA comeptition

 

[p2prada]

Both Shtora and Arena currently don't have capability to stop CBU-105 bomblets. Shtora has a elevation capability ranging from -5 to +25 degree to engage with treat, while CBU-105 bomblet fall at 60 to 90 degree angle making shtora ineffective. Its only defence against CBU-105 is the foam aerosal but that would be useless against vertical threats. The two lights emitters emit coded pulsed infra-red signal (the heart of shtora) are use to confused laser guided ATGM and would be useless against infra-red seekers as they produce limited infra-red signature.
Till date i have not heard of any infra red jammer. Infra-red mode of guidence is a passive mode of guidence and passive mode of guidence can't be jammed but only fooled. The only effective counter-measure against infra-red seeker till day are flares.
Greatest problem for both Arena and Shtora to counter CBU-105 is that how would they detect CBU-105 as all radar have a limited azimuth and area above the radar is generally blind spot for the radar. Any target in such area can't be detected.

True. There is not one in operation today. But, the CBU-105 is a recent development. So, wait for the countermeasures to be adopted a little later. I have already said CBU-97/105 have no peers currently. A new Russian tank is to be ready post 2010.

The only effective counter-measure against infra-red seeker till day are flares.

Infrared jammers have been in use since the 70s.
ALQ-144 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Infrared jammers work by fooling the passive guidance of missiles by active jamming.

Multiple infrared missile jammer - Patent 6429446

It is another object of this invention to provide a modulator which enables a single IR source to jam any number of different type missiles which are nearly mutually exclusive spectrally.

It is a further object of this invention to provide a modulator for generating different carrier and spin pulse repetition frequencies, pulse widths, pulse shapes, pulse repetition frequency sweep ranges and pulse repetition frequency sweep rates for different missile types simultaneously and with negligible interference.

It is yet another object of this invention to provide a system for simultaneously jamming a number of missiles.

Briefly, simultaneous jamming of a number of missile types which are nearly mutually exclusive spectrally are jammed with a single IR source by chopping or spatially modulating the output from the IR source with a series arrangement of spectral band-reject filters. Each missile to be jammed requires a distinct modulating reticle comprising alternating segments which alternately pass radiation at all wavelengths of interest and block or reject radiation at the wavelength of the missile to be jammed. For spin scan missiles these latter segments are further divided into segments which alternately pass all wavelengths of interest and block or reject radiation at the wavelengths of the missile to be jammed. This latter division of the segments provides carrier frequency. The band-reject segment may be either reflective or absorptive.

One other point. GPS/INS is used for targeting. The CBU-97 is a free fall bomb. But, the CBU-105 has a guidance kit that relies mainly on GPS/INS(not entirely reliable in hitting a small target).

Also, the missile will have to work in a dense electronic clutter in an environment where there are enemy jets present too. Not to mention supporting SAM systems that come along with the armoured groups.

 

[AJSINGH]

2015 is the slated arrival of the 5th gen fighter. The trial for the MRCA is already underway. I think if its all taken urgently we can see a numbers in India by 2015 rather than start by that time.

Also the problem is of Russian price fluctuation after signing of contracts and also the delays in various deals. Its hurting India. There is growing frustration in India about all that. Similar fate can happen to the MiG 35 which will hurt India as its force level is depleting.

Russia wont disappoint India because it knows because of India it recieves major forgein exports .and if Mig 35 wins MMRCA .then if at all any other country wants to buy Multi role aircraft Mig 35 will have very strong chance because they will see india example

 

[Soham]

F/A-18: If the planes where that gr8 the US Official would have iducted in AirForce instead of F-15. But it was not upto the mark.So instead of covering the billion they spent on a failed Plane they inducted it in Navy to aleast retrieve Some Cost.And now are exporting this plane to atleast make-up for their losses.

Rather stupid post.
The Eagle and the Super Hornet are miles apart in their purpose. Stop comparing the two.
Secondly,
The Super Hornet is not a failed fighter. This is evident by the massive reliance of the USN, and its definite presence in the future of the US carrier groups.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Russia wont disappoint India because it knows because of India it recieves major forgein exports.

What would you say about Vikrimadatya issue, delay in Akula 2, barallel issue for T-90 tanks.

and if Mig 35 wins MMRCA .then if at all any other country wants to buy Multi role aircraft Mig 35 will have very strong chance because they will see india example

You went ballastic over this issue. I do understand why any country will only chose Mig if India chooses mig. Every country has its own policy.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

True. There is not one in operation today. But, the CBU-105 is a recent development. So, wait for the countermeasures to be adopted a little later. I have already said CBU-97/105 have no peers currently. A new Russian tank is to be ready post 2010.



Infrared jammers have been in use since the 70s.
ALQ-144 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Infrared jammers work by fooling the passive guidance of missiles by active jamming.

Multiple infrared missile jammer - Patent 6429446


One other point. GPS/INS is used for targeting. The CBU-97 is a free fall bomb. But, the CBU-105 has a guidance kit that relies mainly on GPS/INS(not entirely reliable in hitting a small target).

Also, the missile will have to work in a dense electronic clutter in an environment where there are enemy jets present too. Not to mention supporting SAM systems that come along with the armoured groups.

Thanks for the info, a point taken. If you read the article carefully, you will find out that you need to have a detail knowledge for your enemy seeker for the system to be effective. You can this is the catch/problem for such system. Without detailed info about enemy seekers the effectiveness for such system is greatly reduced.

 

[sukhoi]

hi ,iam new to this forum,i am not a defence analyst or something in defence,but according some kind of real experience , i would like to share my view which i have seen in aero 2009
i feel american palnes are cool looking,short take off,may be they have good radars on board but one thing they lack compared to MIG-35 and euro fighter are thrust vectoring ,i feel take mig-35 and implement worthfull radars which isreal is ready to give us,which helps us in many ways,
1.maintainence
2. low price
3.no need of extra training to pilots because they r used to it
4. russia will always help us and support us,its of trust from early 1960's

anayways i have created a site called ****************can u guys have a look at it and send back me yours valuable opinions.


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my email id is [email protected]

 

[Daredevil]

Sukhoi, Introduce yourself in the member introductions section

Members Introductions - Defence Forum Of India | DFI |

 

[Daredevil]

 

[p2prada]

Thanks for the info, a point taken. If you read the article carefully, you will find out that you need to have a detail knowledge for your enemy seeker for the system to be effective. You can this is the catch/problem for such system. Without detailed info about enemy seekers the effectiveness for such system is greatly reduced.

The author is talking about defeating multiple threats with a single source. Seeker information is needed in such a case. But, infrared signals from jammers switch quickly to get the right frequency if the threat is just one or two missiles. The wavelength is also spread over a large spectrum and all this happens in microseconds.

Don't forget that even during bombing runs, there are a lot of infrared jammers on the ground. Lot of tanks, EW vehicles etc.

 

[AJSINGH]

What would you say about Vikrimadatya issue, delay in Akula 2, barallel issue for T-90 tanks.


You went ballastic over this issue. I do understand why any country will only chose Mig if India chooses mig. Every country has its own policy.

well talking about Vikramadatya .it was the intially fault of russia because they underestimated the refit price .think of it less than 1 billion for refit of aircraft carrier .Akula 2 was delayed because of the accident .it can happen to anyone .so they were fixing that thats why the delay atleast give russia credit that they are offering us their neuclear sub .

 

[natarajan]

mig 35 is still in development,what happens if russians again say that they underestimate cost involved in development etc and repeat another gorshky?:blum3:

 

[ppgj]

mig 35 is still in development,what happens if russians again say that they underestimate cost involved in development etc and repeat another gorshky?:blum3:

once bitten twice shy.they may not do that.