MMRCA news and discussions.

[AJSINGH]

no the evolved version Zhuk AE will have a max detection range of 200km, it will come no way near the MKI's or SH's AESA. the current Zhuk AE FGA-29 has max detection range of 130km for 3m2 rcs, while the future upgrade will increase detection range to 200km for 5m2 target.

MiG-35 sensor suite unveiled.


Zhuk AE will be superior to the BARS because it an Active array, it will still fall below the BARS in detection ranges. Speaking of affordability, the EU weapons are almost 2 to 3 times more expensive than US weapons, yet we seem so eager to go for Rafale which will need weapons like ASSM, Apache, Stormshadow, Sagem LGBs etc which are very expensive compared to US counterparts. By paying $38,000 for SDB which can hit a target 110km away, IAF can hit a far away target reducing risk to the aircraft and achieve its mission. Or by engaging a single CBU-97SFW the SH can take out 40 tanks, it can carry 4 such weapons and can destroy upto 160 targets in a single sortie at range of 65km. the cost of such destruction is a little over $1.2 million and distance to target is still 50km, enough time to run back home for medals. Money is not an issue when that money spent gives results to the IAF and peace of mind to the pilot. Most Russian PGMs the pilot will have to get close to the target, too close for comfort, you forget a cheap anti aircraft gun is still good enough to shoot down any aircraft.

wait and watch the Mig 35 radar will surpass
A parametric analysis and power aperture modelling is performed on the Zhuk ASE, which is a scaled up version of the Zhuk AE following the model of the Zhuk MSFE built for the Flanker. The Flanker sized Zhuk ASE radar with existing Russian transmit receive module technology will deliver around 60 percent higher raw power aperture performance compared to US APG-79 (F/A-18E/F BII) and APG-81 (JSF) class radars, and if fitted with transistor technology permitting 15 Watts/channel or more, as proposed by NIIR Phazotron, it will outperform the N035 Irbis-E (Su-35BM) and all currently deployed US fighter radars other than the APG-77(V)2 (F-22A Raptor). The earliest feasible IOC for the Zhuk ASE on the Flanker is estimated at 2010.

 

[AJSINGH]

to p2prada for post number 636 ...truly said ..i also agree that france is reliable ..after russia ..Mirage 2000 now 2000-5 are serving IAF well ...and the submarine project is goign good to ..

 

[Dark Sorrow]

The range is not right. Any pilot will require visual confirmation even during war to engage targets. Technologically too, the "small" American weapons will have to work in a dense electronic environment. It is not possible for the PGM to gain even 60% accuracy in such an environment at such long ranges. The PGMs may even miss their targets by miles.

This was a problem suffered by old generation of optically(laser, TV, terran matching) and radio PGM. New generation of PGM using satellite guidence coupled with secondary optical guidence(laser or 3rd generation infra-red guidence) are far more accurate.
LJAMD uses both GPS and laser guidence and same goes for Paveway 4. The CBU-105 that IAF has bought have multiple mode of guidence i.e. Infra-red, the primary guidence, laser to find out change in heigh, it may use GPS to find has it reached desired area and has INS if GPS fails.

Also, Battle Tanks and APCs have something called the smoke grenade. With this, PGMs are completely and thoroughly nullified. No amount of PGMs will get through smoke. This is where you need your Dumb bombs. Your $1000000 bomb is stopped by a $100 smoke canister or even a cheaper method (tank engine spewing out smoke).

CBU-105/3 use infra-red as primary mode of guidence which is capable of seing through dence smoke. Smoke from grenade canisters are only effective against laser homed(guided) weapon.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

AJSINGH,
The post count has reached number #624 including this post. There is no post #636 till now, please point at right post.

 

[thakur_ritesh]

[mod]all posting on this thread,


do not post news regarding what is happening in other countries mrca contests, certainly not the complete article. if at all you all want to make a reference, then do only that much which is relevant, and here relevant part would mean, those few lines/paragraphs which would have a possible direct/indirect bearing on our mmrca contest.

any such posts which are made, and where a complete copy paste happens and does not confer with the above will be treaded as off topic and hence be deleted from this thread.

thanks.[/mod]

 

[John]

firstly no smoke canister will save tanks from the wrath of the CBU-97SFW, they have 40skeets with IR guidance which will obliterate any armour in the area. its because the US knows the tactics they devloped weapons with exceptional flexbility, if too much cloud cover the pilot can switch between GPS or laser guidance depending on conditions. All this desnt come with Ruaaisn PGMs. The Russian aircraft will be shot down because their PGMS dont have decent accuracy. A single SDB can be used for moving, hardened or or anti personnel missions (air burst), all this gives their PGMS an edge over any Russina PGM. All of those Russian cluster bombs are dumb, low range putting the aircraft and crew at risk, plus the complete destruction of a target is not assured. What use is a PGM which is useless and requires additonal risks. Standoff is the way to go and US PGMs continue interest a lot of buyers and no one seems to be buying EU stuff, because they are already so expensive, when no future sales, no price cuts or drops.

The Naval Institute guide to world ... - Google Books

page 207...read very carefully...the APG-73 had a max. detection range of 300km.. the The APG-79 has a max. detection range more than double that. Now...so far i have shown you the FGA-29 version of the Zhuk AE which has a max. detection range of 130km for 3m2 rcs. I am not pulling stuff out of bum...this is what the Russians are tesing now..how long will they take before they begin testing FGA-35 which will have around a 1000 T/R modules...

Hello almost every single deal with Russia is delayed, tanks (many of them dont work according to specs), AC, sub, friagtes....please nothing from Russia arrives in time.

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/4484/zhukaemj2.jpg

all this blah blah about radars that havent eveen been tested yet...the Zhuk ASE is for the Flanker and i think we are talking about the Mig. for the Mig the FGA-35 is as far as it goes for next many years. and it hasnt even begun testing yet, its predesessor is now being tested. And pleas lets not compare any Russian radar to the APG-77 which allows the F-22 pilot to see as far as 1000km. No Russian will comews close, APG-77 upgrades are already being worked on....

you wait and watch while the Mig-35 looses the deal. btw we didnt recieve all the 2000 missiles in a single year...over 1000 have been delivered till now..many are still in their useful life and malfucntioning...all these problems with Russian missiles, IAF will see through russian lack of reliability and go elsewhere. our do you think IAF is stupid enough to keep missiles past their shelf life in active duty?? mig is a joke. its been shot down in every encounter so far and the reason everyone seems to come up with is poor training.

we dont have mig-29 SMT yet which is another pathetic sham...its upgrade...not impressive except for the engines. TVC was chosen with su-30, we also choose to buy 50 more of those, TVC is by no means a compulsion, IAF may love it, but thw MKIS TVC nozzel has a high mtbf, yes its a gr8 bird but is a handful for maintainers. if TVC was a compulsion well this wouldnt have been such multi venrdor selection process. Griepn NG, Rafale, SH have no TVC yet they are bound to score more than the mig in all trails.

Mikoyan MiG-29 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

On 14 September 2001, two Syrian Air Force MiG-29s were reported shot down by two IDF/AF F-15C while intercepting an Israeli reconnaissance aircraft off the coast of Lebanon.


MiG-29s saw combat in the 1991 Persian Gulf War at the hands of Iraqi pilots. According to the USAF, five MiG-29s were shot down, all by USAF F-15s. Eight MiG-29 pilots managed to flee to Iran where their aircraft now serve in the Iranian Air Force, which now buys MiG-29s from Russia as well.

Six Serbian MiG-29 were shot down by NATO (4 USAF F-15C, 1 USAF F-16C, 1 Dutch F-16A MLU), all of them using AIM-120 missiles.

As of 2008 of mid 2008, the AIM-120 AMRAAM has shot down nine enemy aircraft (six MiG-29, one MiG-25, one MiG-23, and one Soko J-21 Jastreb or J-22 Orao).
AIM-120 AMRAAM - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

even the infamous mig-25 that can out run most missiles with speeds over mach 3 was shot down by the Aim-120. Mig-25 misses were due to its speed and missiles used were older. please learn to read..6 mig-29s were shot donw in Serbia alone... Serbia used to Soviet a while ago...so training is as Russian as its gets...

Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-25 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The F-15 in all air forces had an air-to-air combined record of 104 kills to 0 losses in air combat as of February 2008.To date, no air superiority versions of the F-15 (A/B/C/D models) have ever been shot down by enemy forces. Over half of the F-15's kills were made by Israeli Air Force pilots.

F-15 Eagle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

India or Russia cannot afford PGMs like the US employs. Dropping a couple of dumb bombs is cheaper and more effective.

well you first say we cant afford then a few posts later you say that price dont matter...make up your mind. i don't know how a dumb cluster is more effective than long range guided one, cheap sure..but effective how??? If dumb bombs were really so effctive PGMS wouldnt exist. dumb bombs are waste of time.. unguided cluster mutiontions can cause lot of collateral dmage might end up killing civilians, even with so many PGMS we still see civilians being killed in battlefields and urban zones and you want to use unguided dumb bombs...wow what a way of thinking..The pakis have ahabit of hinding in caves, using human shields etc, unless we want to go for extensive carpet bombing without much consideration to collateral dmagae, well we will face international heat, India does things by the book and i doubt your logic works.

I have shown US made bombs are accurate enough, have long enough ranges, to make sure the aircraft and crew remain far away from danger and engage targets and return home.

mig-35 is as new as the block 70 Viper and doesn't get newer than that..its just an upgrade, if we had to buy something that has been patched up to look new..well my choice is the F-16IN..the mig-35 is even terrible after being patched up...

Ruskis say they cant begin production before 2013..now we need something latest by 2014..so noway mig...its too late...too useless...too central towards air defence roles. the mig's radar and avionics will never match up the Gripen NG forget the SH..SH is way out of its league.

US made PGMs not practical...wow...another joke...if that holds true well every other aircraft in competiton is pathetic...Rafale, Gripen, EF..are useless because their primary PGMS are all US made...according to your logic we should scrap the MRCA. US PGMs are not practical yet even we used them, Paveways were the only weapons in our inventory during Kargil to clean up Tiger Hill, The Russian LGBs we had in our inventory were useless.

Its only with Russia we have to bargain like shit...and we still get shit that dont work....haha...mass production of EU weapons dont happen because they are already expensive from start, no one buys..and price remains the same for years...nothing has changed...a ASSM still cost 110k euros...mass production in EU dont work because mnaufacturing in EU is already very expensive, i know i live here.

miss their targets by miles..yeah right...well when JDAM with 3-5 m cep can miss by miles how miles will the Russian PGM miss by??? 60% accuracy... our EW systems will ensure we have EW superiority over both China and PAk in the event of war..our EW systems are far better and more advanced. besides in any situation even if gps guidance is not reliable the pilot can switch to laser or IR guidance..such flexibility only comes with select US made PGMs...so please...think before you reply..Phalcon TOT denied for us???..yet we have Phalcon the sale of which was approved in 2004, startling for a country that slapped sanctions on us just 6 year before that for nuke tests...wow...if TOT was denied we would never have the Phalcon..US cleared the sale..without which.. no Phalcon...so much yapping about sanctions...bla bla...russia may be reliable...well so reliable that thanx to them..our neighbor to the east is fully armed with copies of the same Russian reliability...have 60 subs..most of them copies which pose the real threat to India....so reliable that 1/3 of our BVRs dont work...latest tanks dont fire properly and we have lost over 200 pilots to stupid accidents. even Rafale has US parts and exclusively uses US weapons. dont know what you on about...MOD/IAF is not some student organization that will not take into account strategic considerations of going for certain platform from a certain nation. Thats for them to decided and frankly none of our business in a fair competition..the ideal aicraft will win...which is certainly not the mig-35...the IAF will notice this during trails and one of the teens or EU aircraft will win. mig dont stand a chance. it may be high flyer, fast and agile but useless for multiple roles.

 

[nitesh]

I don' think we should opt for anything US, it is like no outer person is need for scooping in to Indian establishment, they will simply bu the radars armamnet and everything this is simply not acceptable, way to go for Rafale and MiG 35 at least those doesn't come bugged:

LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: EXCLUSIVE: Devil In The Details? Bogey In The Indian Navy's P-8I Aircraft Contract

According to Section 6.1 under Article 28 of the contract between the two governments, the US will be liable for no penalties in the event that any "malicious code" is detected in the software that governs the P-8I's sensors and systems. Malicious code, among other things, could include deliberately embedded bits of software designed to do one or many of a variety of things, which could include encrypted recording of platform usage information -- data that only American inspectors will be able to decrypt during end-user inspections, without making it apparently so. Sound far-fetched. It apparently isn't. Anyway, the point is, if Indian engineers are lucky enough to detect the malicious software (in some fortuitous spasm of counter-intelligence), then as per the contract on paper, there will be no penalties. All the US will have to do is to modify the hardware or software and remove the malicious code, with no other liabilities.

There are folks who believe this is precisely what the US government has seen done in contracts with Pakistan's P-3 and F-16 fleet.

 

[John]

well this malicious code business...not a problem...our BBJ VIP for the PM also had some mailcious code which India requested to take out and they did..the BBJ is not subject any inspections either. Inspections are to insure we dont steal or misuse technology... welll speaking of penalties...we always seem to end up paying more when Russia announces delays...we dont penalize them for delays, this is minor part of some malicious code, which the article say we can have removed...dont know what the problem is here...for all we know there could be bugs in the Awacs too since we cant trust anything with US parts C-130Js, P-8s, GM-500 radars, Paveways.. everything could be bugged right...Chinooks, Apaches, V-22s, E-2Ds..all of them bugged yet IAF seems interested...The LCA's fly by wire system was tested on an f-16 in the US...my god they could have bguged that too....

 

[nitesh]

The question is why the malicious code has to be there in first place?

 

[ppgj]

US PGMs are not practical yet even we used them, Paveways were the only weapons in our inventory during Kargil to clean up Tiger Hill, The Russian LGBs we had in our inventory were useless.

john,actually during kargil war only mirages had laser pods so only they could have fired lgb's.also they could have only taken french matra 1000lgb's or paveway 2s.even paveways had some parts which were not working and USA did not send them due nuke tests and IAF tecchhies had to remanufacture them to make them work.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/Kargil/PCamp.html

 

[John]

The question is why the malicious code has to be there in first place?

its not a malicious code...firstly..they are already in the software in order to help US keep tabs on its own aircraft in its own inventory...encrypted recording of platform usage information...etc. is used deliberatly to monitor their own aircraft..its standard code...almost every platform in the US has it. Each US aircraft is full of embedded bugs which helps them to monitor the aircraft's performance and enhances training. Even F-16s, F-18S, EF, Rafales etc have embedded equipment for training and monitoring purposes. To inspect every single aircraft or platform wont happen... we choose the locaion and timing. inspections last 2 or 3 days... they look at some charts...have meals, enjoy the countryside...and go home...as if we are goin to let them break down each aircraft and show that we didnt copy or misuse anything...or as if US has the patience to inspect every aircraft. The manner of inspection is not going to be very physical, those inspectors are pentagon offcials and not radar or mission computer software en/de coders...besides chances are none of the aircraft will be present at inspections since we choose the location and timing...we show them some charts and they'll go home. Thats the way it works.

 

[nitesh]

What if that codes suddenly bugs the radar to work in some irrational ways. What if it does not allow to fire missile if Uncle Sam is not happy with India. No way this is not acceptable. There should be no malicious codes in our inventory as simple as that.

 

[John]

i doubt the code gives any real-time data to the US...when the data aint real-time..US cant do much about it...as if the US can monitor all 126 super hornets or super vipers or EFs or Gripens or even The LCA etc...in the event of an escalation...coz for all we know even the GE F404IN for LCA could have some embedded bugs...c'mon...seems too far fetched...knowing our proliferation records and past track record of peacful nature, do you think US is so inerested in moniting us so carefully?? If they were really so concerned they would have never allowed any equipment including awacs to fall in our hands. The same could be said for the GM-500 low level long range radars..just because its US made..does it mean that US can see exactly what we can see on our radar screens??? or spy on our comms, or suddenly jam the radar if we are about to transfer targeting information to the SPYDER's fire control radar to engage an incoming Paki bandit...hell no.

 

[F-14]

firstly no smoke canister will save tanks from the wrath of the CBU-97SFW, they have 40skeets with IR guidance which will obliterate any armour in the area. its because the US knows the tactics they devloped weapons with exceptional flexbility, if too much cloud cover the pilot can switch between GPS or laser guidance depending on conditions. All this desnt come with Ruaaisn PGMs. The Russian aircraft will be shot down because their PGMS dont have decent accuracy. A single SDB can be used for moving, hardened or or anti personnel missions (air burst), all this gives their PGMS an edge over any Russina PGM. All of those Russian cluster bombs are dumb, low range putting the aircraft and crew at risk, plus the complete destruction of a target is not assured. What use is a PGM which is useless and requires additonal risks. Standoff is the way to go and US PGMs continue interest a lot of buyers and no one seems to be buying EU stuff, because they are already so expensive, when no future sales, no price cuts or drops.

The Naval Institute guide to world ... - Google Books

page 207...read very carefully...the APG-73 had a max. detection range of 300km.. the The APG-79 has a max. detection range more than double that. Now...so far i have shown you the FGA-29 version of the Zhuk AE which has a max. detection range of 130km for 3m2 rcs. I am not pulling stuff out of bum...this is what the Russians are tesing now..how long will they take before they begin testing FGA-35 which will have around a 1000 T/R modules...

Hello almost every single deal with Russia is delayed, tanks (many of them dont work according to specs), AC, sub, friagtes....please nothing from Russia arrives in time.

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/4484/zhukaemj2.jpg

all this blah blah about radars that havent eveen been tested yet...the Zhuk ASE is for the Flanker and i think we are talking about the Mig. for the Mig the FGA-35 is as far as it goes for next many years. and it hasnt even begun testing yet, its predesessor is now being tested. And pleas lets not compare any Russian radar to the APG-77 which allows the F-22 pilot to see as far as 1000km. No Russian will comews close, APG-77 upgrades are already being worked on....

you wait and watch while the Mig-35 looses the deal. btw we didnt recieve all the 2000 missiles in a single year...over 1000 have been delivered till now..many are still in their useful life and malfucntioning...all these problems with Russian missiles, IAF will see through russian lack of reliability and go elsewhere. our do you think IAF is stupid enough to keep missiles past their shelf life in active duty?? mig is a joke. its been shot down in every encounter so far and the reason everyone seems to come up with is poor training.

we dont have mig-29 SMT yet which is another pathetic sham...its upgrade...not impressive except for the engines. TVC was chosen with su-30, we also choose to buy 50 more of those, TVC is by no means a compulsion, IAF may love it, but thw MKIS TVC nozzel has a high mtbf, yes its a gr8 bird but is a handful for maintainers. if TVC was a compulsion well this wouldnt have been such multi venrdor selection process. Griepn NG, Rafale, SH have no TVC yet they are bound to score more than the mig in all trails.

Mikoyan MiG-29 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

On 14 September 2001, two Syrian Air Force MiG-29s were reported shot down by two IDF/AF F-15C while intercepting an Israeli reconnaissance aircraft off the coast of Lebanon.


MiG-29s saw combat in the 1991 Persian Gulf War at the hands of Iraqi pilots. According to the USAF, five MiG-29s were shot down, all by USAF F-15s. Eight MiG-29 pilots managed to flee to Iran where their aircraft now serve in the Iranian Air Force, which now buys MiG-29s from Russia as well.

Six Serbian MiG-29 were shot down by NATO (4 USAF F-15C, 1 USAF F-16C, 1 Dutch F-16A MLU), all of them using AIM-120 missiles.

As of 2008 of mid 2008, the AIM-120 AMRAAM has shot down nine enemy aircraft (six MiG-29, one MiG-25, one MiG-23, and one Soko J-21 Jastreb or J-22 Orao).
AIM-120 AMRAAM - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

even the infamous mig-25 that can out run most missiles with speeds over mach 3 was shot down by the Aim-120. Mig-25 misses were due to its speed and missiles used were older. please learn to read..6 mig-29s were shot donw in Serbia alone... Serbia used to Soviet a while ago...so training is as Russian as its gets...

Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-25 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The F-15 in all air forces had an air-to-air combined record of 104 kills to 0 losses in air combat as of February 2008.To date, no air superiority versions of the F-15 (A/B/C/D models) have ever been shot down by enemy forces. Over half of the F-15's kills were made by Israeli Air Force pilots.

F-15 Eagle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

India or Russia cannot afford PGMs like the US employs. Dropping a couple of dumb bombs is cheaper and more effective.

well you first say we cant afford then a few posts later you say that price dont matter...make up your mind. i don't know how a dumb cluster is more effective than long range guided one, cheap sure..but effective how??? If dumb bombs were really so effctive PGMS wouldnt exist. dumb bombs are waste of time.. unguided cluster mutiontions can cause lot of collateral dmage might end up killing civilians, even with so many PGMS we still see civilians being killed in battlefields and urban zones and you want to use unguided dumb bombs...wow what a way of thinking..The pakis have ahabit of hinding in caves, using human shields etc, unless we want to go for extensive carpet bombing without much consideration to collateral dmagae, well we will face international heat, India does things by the book and i doubt your logic works.

I have shown US made bombs are accurate enough, have long enough ranges, to make sure the aircraft and crew remain far away from danger and engage targets and return home.

mig-35 is as new as the block 70 Viper and doesn't get newer than that..its just an upgrade, if we had to buy something that has been patched up to look new..well my choice is the F-16IN..the mig-35 is even terrible after being patched up...

Ruskis say they cant begin production before 2013..now we need something latest by 2014..so noway mig...its too late...too useless...too central towards air defence roles. the mig's radar and avionics will never match up the Gripen NG forget the SH..SH is way out of its league.

US made PGMs not practical...wow...another joke...if that holds true well every other aircraft in competiton is pathetic...Rafale, Gripen, EF..are useless because their primary PGMS are all US made...according to your logic we should scrap the MRCA. US PGMs are not practical yet even we used them, Paveways were the only weapons in our inventory during Kargil to clean up Tiger Hill, The Russian LGBs we had in our inventory were useless.

Its only with Russia we have to bargain like shit...and we still get shit that dont work....haha...mass production of EU weapons dont happen because they are already expensive from start, no one buys..and price remains the same for years...nothing has changed...a ASSM still cost 110k euros...mass production in EU dont work because mnaufacturing in EU is already very expensive, i know i live here.

miss their targets by miles..yeah right...well when JDAM with 3-5 m cep can miss by miles how miles will the Russian PGM miss by??? 60% accuracy... our EW systems will ensure we have EW superiority over both China and PAk in the event of war..our EW systems are far better and more advanced. besides in any situation even if gps guidance is not reliable the pilot can switch to laser or IR guidance..such flexibility only comes with select US made PGMs...so please...think before you reply..Phalcon TOT denied for us???..yet we have Phalcon the sale of which was approved in 2004, startling for a country that slapped sanctions on us just 6 year before that for nuke tests...wow...if TOT was denied we would never have the Phalcon..US cleared the sale..without which.. no Phalcon...so much yapping about sanctions...bla bla...russia may be reliable...well so reliable that thanx to them..our neighbor to the east is fully armed with copies of the same Russian reliability...have 60 subs..most of them copies which pose the real threat to India....so reliable that 1/3 of our BVRs dont work...latest tanks dont fire properly and we have lost over 200 pilots to stupid accidents. even Rafale has US parts and exclusively uses US weapons. dont know what you on about...MOD/IAF is not some student organization that will not take into account strategic considerations of going for certain platform from a certain nation. Thats for them to decided and frankly none of our business in a fair competition..the ideal aicraft will win...which is certainly not the mig-35...the IAF will notice this during trails and one of the teens or EU aircraft will win. mig dont stand a chance. it may be high flyer, fast and agile but useless for multiple roles.

John (kaizer) in combat it is not all about spanking fighter jets and missiles and bombs such fanboyish stuff is useless there is the reson why the F-15 in all its variants have such a good combat record : it is due to extensive training and tatics on behalf of the pilots that fly them: what you are saying now was what the yankees said when they went to nam but what happened they got there Arse handed to them by the DPRVAF MiG-15 and 19's the most number of kills were either achived by guns or the AIM-9 WVR missiles and Vietnam pilots exapted huge tolls on USAF B-52 and F-105's by their Hit and run tatics it wasnt till Operation Bolo lead by Col Olds and the establishment of the "TOP GUN" for the navy that American fatalities in Nam began to go down in all the cases you highlighted the OPFOR lost due one thing and one thing alone lack of proper traning and tatics not because of the fact that the wepones platforms are bad if you look at the Opposing Air forces you quoted such as the IqAF the SrYAF and the Yugoslav AF by the time period you have quoted have become what i would call "Show Air forces" or paper tigers (but that doesnt mean there are no good pilots in the above mentioned forces)
the most gleeming example of Tatics over platforms can be demonstrated in the air war in the 71 war where Indian pilots flying Folland gnats and Dassualt oragan II's in some cases gave a good trashing to PAF CF-86 Saber MkIII's and F-104 Star Figher at the time the "Most state of the art" fighter in the world so just to dmoat russian aircfrat as junk and us aircrft as the best is a folly that you should not fall in to

 

[nitesh]

what sort of logic is this? Is India is some sort of subodinate of US or what that US will bug the systems which India is buying or going to buy and should not be penalise for that. This sort of attitude is arrogant to say at least. Better have some other system. I am ok with Russian system without whom we could not have seen our Arihant will US be any day provide such sort of support. Anything like BrahMos?o way day by day suspecion is growing better not choose MRCA as US plane.

 

[F-14]

guys guys chill out the EUV is just a nessicity of us law and besides I dont think that they will enforce it as strongly as they do with pakistan abut the EUV came about due to a certain period in history just after the Iranian revolution when there were roumor and Humint news that the AIM -45A Phiniox and and the Tomcat radar had been compermised to the soviets by the iranians so to stop that from happening again the USA started to put this act togather

 

[Daredevil]

Sweden's SAAB offers advanced radar with Gripen combat jet

(Source: IANS)
Published: Wed, 09 Sep 2009 at 14:55 IST
New Delhi: The race for an Indian Air Force (IAF) order for 126 combat jets in a deal worth $10 billion just got more interesting with Swedish plane maker SAAB offering an advanced version of a state-of-the-art radar with its Gripen fighter and also the wherewithal to enable its programming here.
"What we are offering is a second generation AESA (advanced extended search array radar) that incorporates a swishplate that enables it to rotate and considerably enhances its capabilities over the existing radar," Gripen International's India director Eddy de la Motte told reporters Wednesday.


"The radar will come with its software source code."


The software source code has been a sticky point, with at least two of the six manufacturers in the race for the IAF order, which could go up to 200 planes, expressing reservations on transferring this to India.


Without the code, the IAF would be dependent on the manufacturer who is selected for the order for programming the radar, thus impinging on the country's national security, a defence analyst pointed out.


Listing the other advantages of the single-engined Gripen, whose IN version is currently on offer to be followed by the NG (next generation) version, de la Motte pointed to its low lifecycle costs, quick turnaround time, quick engine replacement time, advanced avionics and the fact that the IAF could install a weapons suite of is choice on the aircraft.


"In terms of costs, including the life cycle cost, the Gripen is 50 percent cheaper that the other single-engined aircraft (in the fray) and 25 percent cheaper that the double-engined aircraft (in contention)," the SAAB official pointed out.


While the IAF has already begun its flight evaluation trials of the six jets in the running, it is yet to resolve the contentious issue of whether it wants a single-engined or a twin-engined aircraft.


When the IAF first floated its Request For Information (RFI), it was looking for a replacement for its aging Soviet-era Mig-21, a single engined fighter.


Of the six aircraft now in contention, only two - the Gripen and the Lockheed Martin F-16IN Super Viper - are single engined. The other four - the Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet, the French Rafale, the Eurofighter Typhoon built by a European conglomerate and the Russian Mig-35 - are twin-engined.


The SAAB official pointed out that the Gripen was the only aircraft that provided the IAF the opportunity to select the weapons of its choice.


"With the other manufacturers, the IAF will have to take the weapons the aircraft comes with. With the Gripen, the IAF can chose from the best that is available in the international market," de la Motte maintained.


The flight trials, being conducted in humid conditions in Bangalore, desert conditions in Jaisalmer and high-altitude conditions in Leh, will conclude in March 2010. Thereafter, the field will be narrowed down to two or three aircraft, after which the price negotiations will begin, with the first of the planes arriving in 2012-13.


Eighteen of the aircraft will be purchased in flyaway condition and the remaining will be manufactured by state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) under a transfer of technology agreement.

 

[John]

Brazil military plane deal not done yet -ministry

SAO PAULO, Sept 8 (Reuters) - Brazil has yet to close the selection process for a contract to buy 36 fighter planes and all three finalists will still be able to compete, according to a statement from Brazil's Defense Ministry on Tuesday.
After Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva met French President Nicolas Sarkozy this week, top government officials said Brazil was planning to begin final negotiations with France's Dassault Aviation (AVMD.PA) to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets. [ID:nL740276]

The two other finalists are U.S.-based Boeing Co (BA.N) and Saab (SAABb.ST) of Sweden.

The selection process is not yet closed, the statement noted, and "will proceed with negotiations among the three participants." (Reporting by Luciana Lopez; editing by Mohammad Zargham)

Brazil military plane deal not done yet -ministry | Markets | Markets News | Reuters

Rafale didn't win yet, the poor French, seems like everytime a door opens, something comes in between , i hope for atleast their sakes we buy the Rafale, gr8 choice, we can always put US weapons on it and cut down the cost of the weapons package.

 

[Soham]

Keizer,

This might be of some help :

17. Proper punctuation is a must. Do not add excessive dots as a replacement for a comma. this....isn't really....fun..to read. also watch the spelling. [Its hrd 2 reed whn peple tipe poorly, its also trashy!

http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/rules/4-general-rules.html

 

[s_bman]

Sweden's SAAB offers advanced radar with Gripen combat jet

(Source: IANS)
Published: Wed, 09 Sep 2009 at 14:55 IST
New Delhi: The race for an Indian Air Force (IAF) order for 126 combat jets in a deal worth $10 billion just got more interesting with Swedish plane maker SAAB offering an advanced version of a state-of-the-art radar with its Gripen fighter and also the wherewithal to enable its programming here.
"What we are offering is a second generation AESA (advanced extended search array radar) that incorporates a swishplate that enables it to rotate and considerably enhances its capabilities over the existing radar," Gripen International's India director Eddy de la Motte told reporters Wednesday.

one of advantage cited by guru's of aesa radar is absence of having mobile parts and hence less prone to mechanical failure isn't it losing that advantage