Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

If Tanks have to evolve, which path they should follow?

  • Light Vehicles-Best for mobility

    Votes: 25 7.3%
  • Heavy Armour-Can take heavy punishment.

    Votes: 57 16.7%
  • Modular Design-Allowing dynamic adaptions.

    Votes: 198 58.1%
  • Universal Platform-Best for logistics.

    Votes: 61 17.9%

  • Total voters
    341

Austin

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P2P i think the upgrade package the T-72 is going through specially the deep comprehensive one is good bang for the buck at 5 - 6 crores it give you 80- 90 % capability of T-90 tank.

Here is some good information on the Russian T-72BA upgrade that has been going on since 1998
Танк Т-72БА (фоторепортаж и фотодетализация)

Gurkhan has mentioned in his blog yesterday that there was a newer T-72BA2 upgrade in progress with more comprehensive capability , it looks quite good to me.
Gur Khan attacks!: Тагил рулит!
 

p2prada

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Not bad at all. The T-72M1 with the new upgrades may give the same level as protection as the ones that entered Dagestan. If it comes close to the T-72B, then there is little to worry about their combat effectiveness.
 

p2prada

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IMO, the TI issue may have been too trivial to be reported publicly. I am guessing the media was simply too hung up on this aspect and wanted to find faults on the T-90 to belittle the Army's decision. Since they could not find anything of value, they only kept repeating TI issues and kept up the appearance of a scam.

When DRDO reported the Army sabotaged Arjun's engines during Winter trials, you remember the claims of black box and what not. I read a report where the engine did not fail and neither did the gear box(which was the original complaint), apparently the engine maker used a transmission with new parts. Some ball bearing changes. This did not suit well with the engine and the transmission failed as DRDO did not tune the engine for the new transmission. Pie in the face for DRDO. Why would the Army want to scuttle the Arjun when T-90 orders were already given? Quite like the NAL Saras accident, where the engine maker decided to change some aspects and the engine failed because of wrong engine re-ignition sequence.

In 2005, the Arjun's main gun did not fire during trials because the Sagem Rangefinder failed in the heat. The French then tropicalized the equipment. I am guessing the French did the same for Catherine as well. Catherine did not fail in both Malaysia and Saudi Arabia at the same levels of heat. You can assume the heat in Saudi was even more intense, as it should be.
 

p2prada

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Let's see some excerpts from the article shall we'

One journalist"¦ maybe he was having a very difficult hangover in the morning"¦ wrote something that Russia is not supplying drawings for T-90. Russia is not giving the steels or the other necessary (components). Everything he wrote from beginning to end was completely false. Completely false. Russia has completely carried out all its obligations as regards T-90.
We already know that. Ajai's article on the T-90 was hung up on false allegations. Seems he has nothing to say for this, but he had comments for everything else Kadakin had to say. Perhaps the OFB bosses themselves said he is wrong.

The problem was with the producers here; the manufacturers here. We were not commenting on this because we were not wanting to blackmouth (sic) the Indian partners. They had problems, not Russia," declared Kadakin
Not surprising. We have massive delays in our own homegrown projects like IAC and Project-15, it will be a surprise if we don't have problems with imported equipment as well. Manufacturing requires learning before doing it and this is followed by a lot of other problems related to supply of raw materials, technical problems in setting up assembly lines, getting the right approvals etc. Even MKI is going to be delayed by a year. Scorpene has already been delayed as we know. Even Russia has delays getting things done and so does the rest of Europe. The only country with the least amount of delays is the US, but their F-35 is right on top of their list of delays. If you really don't want delays then first build up an economy like the US, and it's not just money it's their entire support structure and decision making, then we will talk.

Russia is losing its position"¦ as if one were rejoicing over it.
What Russia has done for us or what she is doing for us cannot be matched by any other country even remotely in the near future.It is best we remember that. Business for Russia is primary, but we need technology and they are giving it to us on a silver platter even if we are giving away money on a gold platter. Best of luck trying to get a PAKFA equivalent or Nerpa equivalent platforms anywhere else. Money can come back, technology doesn't and neither does time.

It was another typically Kadakin example of chicanery. Russia has not "given India" any technologies for the Brahmos! The two sides have developed their respective portions of the missile separately, and both sides' components and sub-systems are assembled into Brahmos missile systems without any technology being transferred.
Tell me if we could have made the engine and seeker here in India. Heck we import seekers like crazy. They have literally given us unique technology and offered to help develop an even better engine for the future. This my friend has no equivalent in the world. The Guidance and Flight Control System can be developed by the Russians as easy as dirt. Nothing great in what we did except integrate easy to build stuff with impossible to build stuff. BTW, propulsion technology is coming. Ooo! Wait! We developed the launcher. Great!

Kadakin demonstrated during the press conference that he is neither a military technologist, nor a diplomat. Rather, he is a politician and a showman who can beguile Indian audiences, which tend to have little or no knowledge of military-technical issues.
And what are you? Just because you know the names of a few systems you call yourself a developer. You are a retired Colonel and now a media journo. Your career is advancing I see. Heck he is the Ambassador of one of the top countries in the world delegated to work for one of the most friendly country to Russia and also an upcoming great power which is probably the world's most eligible bachelorette.

Perhaps you are assuming we can say everything he says is wrong because he is not in the defence field. What a farce! BTW, nothing he said was technical in the least. Only simple facts even a layman can understand.

India is, was and will be the first and only country which has been offered GLONAS.
Naa! Catherie's failure is more important apparently. PAKFA, Nerpa, GLONASS are just cheap shoddy crappy things that don't compare at all to the great C-130J Super Hercules.

Kadakin made some feeble joke, suggested that I have a vodka (at the hospitality bar that the Russian Embassy had set up for the press conference), and scuttled off.
Without facts, it seems he was lucky even to have been offered a drink.

All these things are facts. Facts can be looked up and even Google is enough for these. You don't need high end contacts for any of this. Why don't people start looking up these things before posting?

Ajai was a Colonel. He has been in plenty of army exercises and he knows how things work in the army. He has himself stated the Arjun is a lemon and that the T-72 is a better tank in our local conditions.
 

Austin

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Well now the Ambasador is on record saying Ajai said was false , will he come up and say how did he invented this story.

Arms business is a very competitive world and Russia holds the lead , so competitor can only win if the lead is reduced , some time they take media route to bad mouth some of the products and T-90 is one great example that has consistently received bad press in India , most of them are just copy paste of Ajais article.

I am sure if required there could be the same game played by moscow and keep bad mouthing HVF or DRDO etc but that wont help make matters better and will just worsen it.

Hopefully at the level of MOD on both side such reports does not do any harm and they work to sort out issue quickly if there is any.

Its strange that there are few T-90 operators around and Indonesia could be one more in the list soon but no where do we here such reports of bad tanks etc
 

sayareakd

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Well now the Ambasador is on record saying Ajai said was false , will he come up and say how did he invented this story.
important is what OFB and IA says, after all one is maker in India and other is user. This story is out for while and no statement is made by either party about this.

Russians are sellers and will do what ever to stop bad publicity for their product.
 

Andrei_bt

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Burlak is preatty interesing design, especially the ERA arrangement, however the question is, these ERA cassettes won't obscure gunner sights view? Especially in minus elevation of main weapons and sights?
they don't obscure gunner sights view.
 

p2prada

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Andrei what do you think about our choice of going for T-90 instead of Arjun?
 

plugwater

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As I know Arjun is planned to be produced. So I don't completely understend why "instead of Arjun".
Check the numbers both are ordered, he wants to know your opinion on why IA bought T-90 in large numbers. Arjun was ordered just to keep the production line running.
 

Austin

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I would bet Pakistan T-80UD will be a tough nut to crack in a classic tank vs tank battle.

Andrei any information on the armour strength of T-80 along with ERA and how does it hold against current known anti tank weapons , also any details on its APFSDS performance ? Thanks

Just wondering why didnt PA went for Lic model of T-80UD when we did the same for T-90.
 
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p2prada

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You consider Pakistan don't have modern antitank weapon? For example TOW 2A ?
You specifically mentioned APFSDS.

Pakistan does have TOW but best of luck catching up to the T-90 in the desert.

As plugwater mentioned, Arjun's numbers are too few. There are 124 orders for Arjun Mk1 which will be complete this year. There are orders for 124 Arjun Mk2 which will start serial production in 2014, being optimistic. Possible orders for 248 during or after the 124 Mk 2s are produced.

You can say we have nearly 800 T-90s today.
 

Austin

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T-90 still has a low profile when it is standing besides Arjun , One can easily miss the other tanks or APC besides arjun but there in lies also a problem for it , since it profile is still large compared to say T-90 , there is equally good chance that it would be a bigger target to hit.

Tow or any top attack ATGM would still be dangerous for any tanks a decent protection against it would be to get APS on tanks.
 

Kunal Biswas

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T-90 still has a low profile when it is standing besides Arjun , One can easily miss the other tanks or APC besides arjun but there in lies also a problem for it , since it profile is still large compared to say T-90 , there is equally good chance that it would be a bigger target to hit.

Tow or any top attack ATGM would still be dangerous for any tanks a decent protection against it would be to get APS on tanks.
I wouldn't compare with those pics, Arjun is few CM bigger in width and height compare to T-90S, Both are exposed to new generation ATGMs..

Besides APS , era are placed above tanks to protect from HEAT rounds, quite effective from rounds like 155mm bonus, but still a tandem warhead is dangerous from above..
 

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