Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

[Austin]

I wouldn't compare with those pics, Arjun is few CM bigger in width and height compare to T-90S, Both are exposed to new generation ATGMs..

Hmm the pics have been fair to all , I mean they were all lined up and i couldnt miss Arjun the other were so punny , may be you can call Arjun more manly

But Arjun has a very distinct profile you can miss that out in combat , but i would still reserve my judgement untill i see video of Arjun and T-90 going around in bushes , may be when its driving around in cammo in shrubs or desert its not as distinct as the picture tells you.

Besides APS , era are placed above tanks to protect from HEAT rounds, quite effective from rounds like 155mm bonus, but still a tandem warhead is dangerous from above.

Well I suppose if it hits just above the sweet spot of commander/gunner/gunner hatch cover no one can save them since you cant have ERA about it and its thinner armour , hence a need for APS

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Hmm the pics have been fair to all , I mean they were all lined up and i couldnt miss Arjun the other were so punny , may be you can call Arjun more manly

But Arjun has a very distinct profile you can miss that out in combat , but i would still reserve my judgement untill i see video of Arjun and T-90 going around in bushes , may be when its driving around in cammo in shrubs or desert its not as distinct as the picture tells you.

Arjun looks big coz of its longer turret and Chassis length, otherwise its same..

 

[Storm shadow]

Height
1)Arjun:2.3 meter/7'7''
2)T 90:2.22 meter/7'3''
So Arjun MkI is just 8 cm higher than T 90 and that doesn't seem to be much.

 

[Andrei_bt]

Height
1)Arjun:2.3 meter/7'7''
2)T 90:2.22 meter/7'3''
So Arjun MkI is just 8 cm higher than T 90 and that doesn't seem to be much.

it is not correct...

Arjune has the same dimentions as Leopard-2 and Abrams.

 

[Andrei_bt]

You specifically mentioned APFSDS.

Pakistan does have TOW but best of luck catching up to the T-90 in the desert.

As plugwater mentioned, Arjun's numbers are too few. There are 124 orders for Arjun Mk1 which will be complete this year. There are orders for 124 Arjun Mk2 which will start serial production in 2014, being optimistic. Possible orders for 248 during or after the 124 Mk 2s are produced.

You can say we have nearly 800 T-90s today.

so what do you want to say?
The opponent have ATGM capable to penetrate T-90S in the most protected areas (as well as Arjune).
The ERA technology offered for India is 30 years old.
The Pakistani has both access to modern Chinese and locally made APFSDS.

 

[Andrei_bt]

I would bet Pakistan T-80UD will be a tough nut to crack in a classic tank vs tank battle.

Andrei any information on the armour strength of T-80 along with ERA and how does it hold against current known anti tank weapons , also any details on its APFSDS performance ? Thanks

Just wondering why didnt PA went for Lic model of T-80UD when we did the same for T-90.

The advantage of pakistani T-80UD (object 478BE) is that it is modular, so it can be easelly replaced when it is required to be modernized.
No such possibility on T-90 exist http://btvt.narod.ru/1/bronja_ukraini/0_14.jpg .
Also it is made from a high hardness electroflux steel which is about +15% stronger than the medium hardness steel on T-90S/
The reactive armor on T-80UD and T-90S is the same, old designed with a lot of drawbacks based on 4C22 elements.
As a conclusion – both tanks (T-80UD, T-90S) can defeat another only at sides or weakened frontal zones (unless such devices as Kombat gun lunched missile is used).
Now this armor is no longer considered up to date (in Ukraine) and replaced by "Noz" armor on new generation elements btvt.narod.ru/1/bronja_ukraini/0_6.jpg capable to defeat modern anti-tank devices.

 

[Andrei_bt]

Check the numbers both are ordered, he wants to know your opinion on why IA bought T-90 in large numbers. Arjun was ordered just to keep the production line running.

IA ordered T-90S as it is the same old T-72 with some upgrades from T-80 in terms of fire control.
Pakistani ordered T-80UD and it was huge advantage over T-72M1.
So the IA ordered T-90S as it is T-72 upgraded to be comparable to the T-80UD level.
Arjune in the end 90-s, mid 2000s was not capable to be accepted.
It is simple questions.

 

[Andrei_bt]

"Lic model of T-80UD"

what means "Lic" model?

 

[Damian]

LIC in english is acronym for Low Intensity Conflict.

BTW 4C22 in english should be written as 4S22, because Russian C is in latin alphabet S.

"Noz"

It is not simpler to write Knife, as Noz (or Nozh) means Knife, or use of it's designation name, I do not know how it is written (and translaed in to english) but in Polish it ChSCzKW.

 

[Andrei_bt]

LIC in english is acronym for Low Intensity Conflict.

I do know this meaning, but I was confused to see this in terms of T-80UD and T-90S as there were no such versions in 90-s...2000s.
This tanks were acquired NOT for LIC but for conventional warfare, and what is useful for city fighting may be burden in conventional tank battle.

It is not simpler to write Knife, as Noz (or Nozh) means Knife, or use of it's designation name,

It is not simpler but incorrect. (for example if you mention ATGM "Nag" we did not neeed to translate it as "snake" or "Kobra").
Maybe in Poland rules are different?

I do not know how it is written (and translated in to English) but in Polish it ChSCzKW.

KhSChKV is closer to be correct, but better is the module designation like "Noz" or "Duplet".

 

[Damian]

Maybe in Poland rules are different?

Yes, You can write it as You wish but more proper is to translate designation name.

KhSChKV

English KhSChKV = ChSCzKW in Polish.

 

[Andrei_bt]

Yes, You can write it as You wish but more proper is to translate designation name.

Looks like your knowlage in language is even less than in armored vehicles

 

[Damian]

Perhaps, but this is how we do this in Poland, if designation name can be translated it is how we are doing it, mainly because some designation names are better to be translated. For example Oplot in Polish should be translated as Forteca (Fortress), and it even sounds better than Oplot.

As for my knowledge about AFV's, well it wasn't me who spread false informations that Leopard 2 front turret armor is everywhere 650mm thick... as photos provided by me and Militarysta proved, so remember that You also don't have monopol for the only right knowledge.

 

[Austin]

Height
1)Arjun:2.3 meter/7'7''
2)T 90:2.22 meter/7'3''
So Arjun MkI is just 8 cm higher than T 90 and that doesn't seem to be much.

Storm Shadow , figures dont lie and you could be right

But neither does your eye lie , Arjun is clearly the Big Man with T-90 around.

Having said that it may be not so visible with its camoflaged and moves in deserts or shrubs.

Do we have a picture or multiple ones with Arjun and T-90 side by side ?

 

[p2prada]

The Pakistani has both access to modern Chinese and locally made APFSDS.

How good are these shells? Are they better than the ones Israel supplies to the export market?

Also I wanted more reasoning as to the advantages and disadvantages of T-90 and Arjun. To make it more clear, a tank based on Soviet Doctrine vs a tank based on NATO doctrine.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

T-90M thread gets T-90M Vid..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

 

[sayareakd]

T90M protection proves that T90S does not have adequate protection.

 

[plugwater]

T90M protection proves that T90S does not have adequate protection.

Arjun MK2 upgrades prove that Arjun MK1 is a junk

Newer versions are supposed to be better than the older versions, just because newer ones is better does not mean older version is crap.

 

[sayareakd]

Arjun MK2 upgrades prove that Arjun MK1 is a junk

Newer versions are supposed to be better than the older versions, just because newer ones is better does not mean older version is crap.

you got me their, i was also thinking about same thing, but if you look closely at T90M specially at the sides, you will know what i am saying. I said adequite protection and not junk as you have said.