Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

[navkapu]

Mostly people in this thread don't understand that APFSDS fired from the rifled guns are not spun as its Fin Stabalised there is no spin ........ if u think rifled gun spins this round U R Wrong its fin not spin ........Rifled guns are difficult to produce and have a lower life than smooth bore that's but more accurate.

 

[Austin]

I don't know how side armor can be underestimated, it is simple 70-80mm RHA plate, there is no possibility to increase in significant way basic protection there without making turret bigger and heavier.

Hmm lets say you are right and the ERA gives a figure of say 4x times protection level , then using the same benchmark the front protection from relikt will be far higher , but we know from the designer it protection range figure is in the range of 850 mm.

So something is missing here , Need to check this.

Hmmm, we also had problems with Israeli ammunition...

I dont know of other problem , unless OFB did some screw up during manufacturing like using Israel Dart with Russian Propellent or those stories.

 

[Damian]

Mostly people in this thread don't understand that APFSDS fired from the rifled guns are not spun as its Fin Stabalised there is no spin ........ if u think rifled gun spins this round U R Wrong its fin not spin ........

I know that, it is another reason to resign from them, such APFSDS design is complex, and why making something complex when it can be simpler and still do the work?

Rifled guns are difficult to produce and have a lower life than smooth bore that's but more accurate.

Any proof that rifled gun is more accurate than a modern smootbore gun? It was discussed some time ago on TankNet and even Brits admmited that it is not true, and there is not even one reliabale source stating that rifled gun is more accurate.

And hey, it is not even a problem of gun itself but ammunition, it was belived that rifled guns are more accurate because of HESH, APFSDS fired from both guns will be as same accurate (if the one fired from smoothbore not more accurate), but even when firing from smoothbore guns, at long range it is not APFSDS ammunition used but HEAT or HE, just like in rifled guns.

 

[Austin]

Yeah, but it is good now, what with the future? Where is the need of progress? HE ammunition with programmable fuze can do everything HESH can do and will do it better.

With HESH You can't hit infantry hiding behind rigde or sand berm, with HE with programmable fuze no problems, this ammunition can be also used against helicopters or low and slowly flying aircrafts if needed. It just gives more options. And HESH will be only effective against old tanks without composite armors, but these old tanks can be equipped with ERA... making HESH also ineffective.

You need to understand one thing our most likely enemy is Pakistan and Arjun will be used against them , its too heavy to be used up against China , we are not fighting with NATO or US or Russia to be on the cutting edge of every thing up there.

Arjun in Mk2 is already future proof against its most likely enemy and what ever it can throw or it can buy in the future. So HE programmable fuse might be cool to have but HESH does the job more cheaply for us , HESH wont be likely used against tanks that would be APFSDS between 2 - 3 Km and beyond that it will be Lahat.

Do not try to compare advancement made with Western system for every thing and then compare it with India and say oh well you need that , Indian needs are not exactly similar to Western needs as its most likely enemy is that much inferior and the most common target can be taken out cheaply.

 

[Damian]

And what with exports? Export can give money and reduce costs of domestic made system, thus enabling to more be purchased by own armed forces. Think about that.

 

[Austin]

And what with exports? Export can give money and reduce costs of domestic made system, thus enabling to more be purchased by own armed forces. Think about that.

Export ? What export ....... if you are realistic and see ...we do not have a great export market ( its hardly few million dollars of small arms and some choppers ) or even culture to export ammo , Just on the contrary SIPRI says we are the number 1 importer.

Any thing that we make now is primarily to reduce our import dependence and increase indian system in defence forces and not to export.

Plus you see the challenge in exporting systems that it self have many import content , you will need approval from its OEM if you even entertain the thought of exporting it.

 

[Damian]

Austin, even trying will not harm anyone, and there are countries that can't buy western, russian or chinese equipment. India just should find it's niche, and try there.

 

[Austin]

Austin, even trying will not harm anyone, and there are countries that can't buy western, russian or chinese equipment. India just should find it's niche, and try there.

Ofcourse they can try it no harm done , if they are willing to accept Arjun with what it is then no one would complain.

 

[Damian]

I highly doubt that poorer countries would complain about Arjun, it would be anyway better than old T-54, T-55 or T-62 tanks.

 

[Koovie]

I highly doubt that poorer countries would complain about Arjun, it would be anyway better than old T-54, T-55 or T-62 tanks.

but I think that the Arjun is too costly now. Too many parts are still imported from countries like germany

 

[Damian]

So why nobody even thinked about buying licence for production?

 

[Austin]

So why nobody even thinked about buying licence for production?

To justify lic for production you need a bigger order to justify the sunk cost in building the factory ,importing the equipment and every thing that goes into it. Once the order for Arjun becomes fairly big they will go for lic if required.

 

[Austin]

Part II: Army's delayed orders halts T-90 tank

 

[p2prada]

So why nobody even thinked about buying licence for production?

You can't buy license production for small orders of 124 + 124 tanks. Larger orders will make the deal big enough for Germany to sell the technology.

Part II: Army's delayed orders halts T-90 tank

Incredible. Compared to before he has less venom to spew even if the article critics the T-90.

I was partially right about some of it

HVF says 24 tanks were delivered in 2009-10; 51 in 2010-11; it will be 50 this year; and annual production will hit 100 next year (i.e. 2012-13). But there are no army orders beyond that.

24 + 51 + 50 = 125 tanks by now. Not 150. So, 100 a year from next year. Nice. So, it is not 100 this year.

I have a feeling the production will be expanded to include the T-90MS instead of continuing with the baseline tank. The Army reports talked about building the T-90 until 2020. So, we have time for another 700 tanks even if there is a delay of 3 years from today. If we expand to 140 per year there is a possibility a larger order may be given. Who knows?

 

[p2prada]

p2prada .Can you confirm the T-90 production till date

Seems Shukla has a more accurate report.

Total T-90S holdings so far are 310 + 347 + 150. The 310 + 347 have the 2A46M-2 cannon which can fire only Russia-supplied ammo, while the 150 built by HVF have the 2A46M cannon, which can fire the 125mm APFSDS rounds made by the OFB as well as the IMI-built CL-3254 (Mk1) & CL-3579 (Mk2) rounds. The first 310 T-90S MBTs are now due for a mid-life upgrade. An additional 503 T-90S MBTs are due for rollout from HVF Avadi and these too will have the 2A46M cannon. However, the original licence-production contract could well be modified to allow the off-the-shelf procurement from Uralvagonzavod JSC of about 300 T-90AMs (or T-90MS) equipped with 2A46M-5 cannons (and capable of firing only Russia-supplied ammo), in which case only another 203 (and not 503) T-90S would roll out of HVF. There is also an option to eventually upgrade the T-90S into the T-90AM/MS standard with the help of upgrade kits supplied directly from Russia.

As Damian said there is no reason for changing the barrels to fire a different type of a 125mm shell. There is hardly much difference between a 2A46M and 2A46M-2 barrels in most parameters. The 2A46M only has a shorter life and I hardly think the 80s gun is used on the T-90. There is no difference in the barrels used for 2A46M2 and 2A46M5. The main change is a slight modification in the stabilization.
I guess the reason why early T-90s could not fire Indian shells was because the computers were not calibrated to fire other shells. I guess this changed early on as well, because there were reports of barrel bursts on the T-72 and T-90 when testing our own AMK-40A shells which mated the Romanian penetrator with Russian propellants. The shells would start leaking propellant when placed under high ambient temperatures and the shells would freeze in the barrel when fired. The shell would discharge within the barrel and supposedly killed a -72 crew. Some 40000 shells(from the top of my head) were subsequently destroyed and an RFP was placed for equivalent shells in the open market.

 

[Damian]

P2P indeed, the problem could bee in FCS, there was just no data in FCS to safely and properly fire some types of ammunition.

 

[Austin]

Incredible. Compared to before he has less venom to spew even if the article critics the T-90.

He must have heard it from Business Standard Editor , most certainly he has drastically mellowed down.

24 + 51 + 50 = 125 tanks by now. Not 150. So, 100 a year from next year. Nice. So, it is not 100 this year.

So if we have to make 700 more tanks does that mean we have ~ 900 T-90 tank in service total ?

I have a feeling the production will be expanded to include the T-90MS instead of continuing with the baseline tank. The Army reports talked about building the T-90 until 2020. So, we have time for another 700 tanks even if there is a delay of 3 years from today. If we expand to 140 per year there is a possibility a larger order may be given. Who knows?

Not sure India needs a sophisticated tank as T-90MS when the current T-90 and Arjun Mk1 and 2 are more then enough for the task , there is hardly any thing Pakistan has to match , small improvement in T-90 Bhishma like modified autoloader to carry longer APFSDS and APU should be more then enough.

Both the Arjun Mk2 and Mk1 plus the T-90 Bhishma with small inprovement looks future proof to me. I really dont see Pakistan having the money to buy any thing better then what they have now.

 

[p2prada]

He must have heard it from Business Standard Editor , most certainly he has drastically mellowed down.

I really like a lot of these foreign defence journos. They provide news. They give more facts and less opinions. You already read blogs by Gur Khan and Igor, why don't we have people like them?

Ajai is one of those guys from India who can match the outsiders, but sadly it is not to be. Perhaps someday...

So if we have to make 700 more tanks does that mean we have ~ 900 T-90 tank in service total ?

The opposite. If we take Ajai's article as Gospel then there are 125 tanks ready, which means another 175 are yet to be made.

An order for 700 tanks is still pending, so add 700 and 175 we get 875 yet to be built. We are halfway there.

Not sure India needs a sophisticated tank as T-90MS when the current T-90 and Arjun Mk1 and 2 are more then enough for the task , there is hardly any thing Pakistan has to match , small improvement in T-90 Bhishma like modified autoloader to carry longer APFSDS and APU should be more then enough.

Both the Arjun Mk2 and Mk1 plus the T-90 Bhishma with small inprovement looks future proof to me. I really dont see Pakistan having the money to buy any thing better then what they have now.

I would never underestimate the Pakistanis. They are highly reliant on Chinese technology and we don't want to be caught sitting around waiting for them to surpass the T-90 before we think of the next tank.

I remember reading this very recently somewhere. The Israeli themselves said once that they are ready to provide technology that conforms to western standards, but will rip us off in exchange. An Indian officer said that if we are able to get our hands on technology then the price does not matter. Perhaps an indication on why the Phalcon is getting more expensive by the year.

Also, both T-90 and Arjun Mk1 are vulnerable to taking considerable damage in Urban combat. The MS and Mk2 remove a lot of this disadvantage. It is not that the T-90 is not future proof, looking at what Pakistan is doing we have a massive advantage in fielding more advanced tanks. But I want the IA to have the same advantage over PA as the IAF has over PAF. You never know if suddenly the Chinese decide to sell them 500-1000 Type 99 derivatives on soft loans. We have started being a bit more aggressive nowadays especially after the South China Sea incident. Luckily tanks aren't an issue on the Chinese side.

 

[p2prada]

Damian

I went wrong with the designation of the shells. It is not AMK-38, 39 or 40. The right ones are AMK-338, AMK-339 and AMK-340.

 

[Storm shadow]

I really like a lot of these foreign defence journos. They provide news. They give more facts and less opinions. You already read blogs by Gur Khan and Igor, why don't we have people like them?

Ajai is one of those guys from India who can match the outsiders, but sadly it is not to be. Perhaps someday...



The opposite. If we take Ajai's article as Gospel then there are 125 tanks ready, which means another 175 are yet to be made.

An order for 700 tanks is still pending, so add 700 and 175 we get 875 yet to be built. We are halfway there.



I would never underestimate the Pakistanis. They are highly reliant on Chinese technology and we don't want to be caught sitting around waiting for them to surpass the T-90 before we think of the next tank.

I remember reading this very recently somewhere. The Israeli themselves said once that they are ready to provide technology that conforms to western standards, but will rip us off in exchange. An Indian officer said that if we are able to get our hands on technology then the price does not matter. Perhaps an indication on why the Phalcon is getting more expensive by the year.

Also, both T-90 and Arjun Mk1 are vulnerable to taking considerable damage in Urban combat. The MS and Mk2 remove a lot of this disadvantage. It is not that the T-90 is not future proof, looking at what Pakistan is doing we have a massive advantage in fielding more advanced tanks. But I want the IA to have the same advantage over PA as the IAF has over PAF. You never know if suddenly the Chinese decide to sell them 500-1000 Type 99 derivatives on soft loans. We have started being a bit more aggressive nowadays especially after the South China Sea incident. Luckily tanks aren't an issue on the Chinese side.

But is the ZTZ 99A1 is worthy enough to be so much concerned.Their armor layout doesn't seem to be good enough,ask Damian.I think present Arjun MkI should be able to defeat them if ARDE can provide something like DM 53.The Arjun's gun can withstand even greater chamber pressure than Rheinmetall L55,it should be able to handle a high pressure round like DM 53.