Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

[nitesh]

Saar, He has proved everything a zillion times, being a admin i really dont know how you missed all his conversation with kunal and several others.

Time to start reading this and arjun thread from page one.

Boss, so according to you too, let's sing all is well. I am asking some very simple things, not asking too much. I don't think it is too difficult to do, if he has done it zillion times, as you are saying to do it once more. I am happy to be educated.

 

[plugwater]

Boss, so according to you too, let's sing all is well. I am asking some very simple things, not asking too much. I don't think it is too difficult to do, if he has done it zillion times, as you are saying to do it once more. I am happy to be educated.

Instead of asking him to do one more time why don't you start reading the thread? Education without forcing others to type everything again and again and again.

 

[nitesh]

Instead of asking him to do one more time why don't you start reading the thread? Education without forcing others to type everything again and again and again.

Yaar this is becoming a circus, when I put one particular question, I am first presented with innovative comparisons like comparisons with radar, guns, and then provided with half baked links, when I point out the inconsistency, then I get stupid emotional quotes, like don't find fault with Russian equipments. I specifically give details of what is said by Shukla, it is just been said as plain wrong, when I ask, can you show at least one point where it is wrong, nothing has been provided. Can you please provide something to prove that what Mr. shukla is saying is just plain hyper bole.

 

[plugwater]

Yaar this is becoming a circus, when I put one particular question, I am first presented with innovative comparisons like comparisons with radar, guns, and then provided with half baked links, when I point out the inconsistency, then I get stupid emotional quotes, like don't find fault with Russian equipments. I specifically give details of what is said by Shukla, it is just been said as plain wrong, when I ask, can you show at least one point where it is wrong, nothing has been provided. Can you please provide something to prove that what Mr. shukla is saying is just plain hyper bole.

Austin said Ajai can not be trusted when he writes about T-90 or JSF and you told him to stop so that thread can not go off topics but you want P2p to prove Ajai rants are wrong. Why Austin was stopped and P2p should continue ?

Everyone knows Ajai is completely biased when it comes to JSF or T-90. If you want proof you can read his all articles about T-90 and compare with other genuine articles or blogs.

Anyway i ll end it here.

 

[Austin]

It depends on angle hit, what weapon was used and of course composition of armor, and this is different on different variants.

Ofcourse it does depend on hit angle , valid for all weapons here , armour composition are key and so the thickness.

T-90MS is not using composite of turret sides, it use ERA because with similiar effectivenes it is much lighter.

It uses composite armour and ERA both the MS just has re-enforced ERA tiles over the basic composite turret.

The situation with front armor is much more different, and I say this in my earlier post, everything we know up to this year about western composite armors was just desinformation spread by NATO, in fact their composite armors were more reactive than it was known previously.

One can argue that such disinformation was also spread over by Soviets to NATO and they underestimated their composite armour.

The point is we would never know unless we would actually see NATO and Russia fighting each other in some classic tank battle , till such time happens we would be fed with PR , Disinformation and half truths.

 

[Austin]

It is unknown if M829A1 was tested against 4S22, all sources says only about M829. M829A2 was just short term solution against vehicles protected by composite armor and ERA, long term solution was M829A3.

I have read couple of article that says it was M829A1 was tested against K-5 and it did not penetrate but the one i can find now is from fofanov which says this

Kontakt-5 ERA

It is believed that while protected by Kontakt-5 ERA, Russian MBTs cannot be penetrated across the frontal arc by the M256 guns firing M829A1 APFSDS ammo.

http://www.russianarmor.info/Tanks/EQP/era.html

 

[Damian]

It uses composite armour and ERA both the MS just has re-enforced ERA tiles over the basic composite turret.

Only over turret front, T-90MS side turret armor is the same thin 70-80mm RHA just covered by ERA contrary to older T-90's.

One can argue that such disinformation was also spread over by Soviets to NATO and they underestimated their composite armour.

The point is we would never know unless we would actually see NATO and Russia fighting each other in some classic tank battle , till such time happens we would be fed with PR , Disinformation and half truths.

Of course.

I have read couple of article that says it was M829A1 was tested against K-5 and it did not penetrate but the one i can find now is from fofanov which says this

Kontakt-5 ERA

In the same time Jane's reported only M829, it is very unclear what ammunition was tested.

 

[Galaxy]

These days Shukla is biased towards U.S. defence equipment, May be they have hired few Indian defence journo for PR.

Good think is that, We operating 807 T-90. By 2020, we will have around 1300-1500 T-90, 500 odd Arjun and 2,000 odd upgraded T-72M1 Ajeya. 4,000 quality tanks will be more than enough for our threat perception.

According to Prasun Gupta, The Russians have learnt a bitter lesson from the former eastern Bloc countries like Poland, Slovakia, Czech republic & Croatia (part of erstwhile Yugoslavia) that have blatantly sold T-72 clones post-1991 and therefore Moscow has been determined never to let history repeat itself. That's why it even refused to supply the 2A46M cannons for the Malaysian PT-91Ms of Polish origin, and the cannons were ultimately supplied by Kerametal of Slovakia. And Russia isn't the sole exception when it comes to practising such policies. For instance, how many countries using the Rheinmetal-developed 120mm smoothbore cannon have actually produced it under licence? Not the Japanese, not the South Koreans, not the Swedes, Singaporeans or Poles, not Israel, and not Turkey. So why should anyone expect Russia to make the exception for India? And what exactly is to be gained by making such cannons in-country? How does it translate into any operational advantage over one's enemies? And especially in India's case it is far more cost-effective to import the 2A46M-2 directly from Russia and use the money saved to further improve and enhance the performance of the Arjun MBT's indigenous 120mm rifled-bore cannon.

 

[Damian]

Rheinmetal-developed 120mm smoothbore cannon have actually produced it under licence? Not the Japanese, not the South Koreans, not the Swedes, Singaporeans or Poles, not Israel, and not Turkey.

Actually RH-120/L44 and L55 guns are widely manufactured on licence, some with minor some with major changes in design. For example US M256/L44 is redesigned RH-120/L44, Israeli MG251 and MG253 are also redesigned Rhinemetall guns, Japanese and South Koreans are also manufacturing on licence RH-120/L44 and RH-120/L55 + the South Korean version of M256 the KM256. Turkey will also licence manufacture RH-120/L55.

And especially in India's case it is far more cost-effective to import the 2A46M-2 directly from Russia and use the money saved to further improve and enhance the performance of the Arjun MBT's indigenous 120mm rifled-bore cannon.

What?! Just save money and replace that goddamned outdated rifled gun with a smoothbore one, You will be abale to use more types of ammunition and better APFSDS ammunition. For example You will be abale to replace HESH with much more advanced Israeli Kalanit HE ammunition with programmabale fuze... Arjun gun is outdated by the world wide standards, christ even British wanted to replace their L30 rifled guns with smoothbore one, but rearming tanks also would need deep redesign of turret and hull, thus it was too expensive, in Arjun there will be no problem and smoothbore with modern ammunition will enhance firepower over any exceptations.

 

[Archer]

Austin said Ajai can not be trusted when he writes about T-90 or JSF and you told him to stop so that thread can not go off topics but you want P2p to prove Ajai rants are wrong. Why Austin was stopped and P2p should continue ?

Everyone knows Ajai is completely biased when it comes to JSF or T-90. If you want proof you can read his all articles about T-90 and compare with other genuine articles or blogs.

Anyway i ll end it here.

Actually Ajai has only mentioned a fraction of the sh*t that has gone on with the T-90 deal. What he has said is very well known to anyone who even occasionally talks to IA, Procurement, Industry personnel even at public events. The T-90 deal is a fracas no questions asked. Now kiddies can continue to hold onto their ding a lings and claim all is well and the T-90 is very good, no problems exist, the Arjun will never be as good, blah blah blah - but the reality is actually that the T-90 problems continue and are piling up year by year, frustrating even those who earlier would sing hosanna's about Russian equipment.

The Russians have otherwise been ok in many deals, but in this particular one, their arrogance has had severe repercussions. They are also acting obdurate about the Smerch's, and MiG's behaviour when it came to the hydraulic issue with the MiG-29Ks did not win it any favours either.

Coming back to the T-90, the ammunition shortages (artificially forced by the Russians till we imported more rounds, worse than our locally made Israeli ones, because that's all the Russians are at, BS about super-duper long rod penetrators apart), the continuing TI problems (with the IA still running about asking any and every OEM to fix this issue - and so far it hasn't) and continued delays in providing systems and spares has really delayed the T-90 program. Its a blatant attempt to ensure India just orders as many full built/kit bashed T-90s from Russia as versus makes them on their own.

The behaviour of several Russian OEMs in deal after deal, and the apparent inability of the Russian Govt/ROE to do anything about it has frustrated Indian procurement to a great deal. Going forward, expect more and more JVs with Europe/Israel as versus reliance on Russian platforms. About the only three-four programs going on with Russia are those where there is no other option per se, the Brahmos-2, the FGFA, the MRTA and the N-sub. Rest, anything and everything, Russia is being forced to compete with international vendors, and more often than not, its losing.

The T-90, Gorshkov deals are probably the last where Russian industry got a free ride. We've given them enough. When the MiG-35 was dropped from the MMRCA, one senior rtd official at a public event even went so far as to say it was the best news he had heard in a long while. This a person who had otherwise been a staunch supporter of MiGs but after dealing with their spares claims, called them BS-artists. Not all issues are so bad but they have earned no favours with their behaviour. Its high time they realized, and in recent days they are doing so, that India is not a captive customer to be taken for a ride.

As to Ajai, he is one of the rare few in the Indian media who actually makes an attempt to understand defence issues and speaks his mind. Most of the rest just regurgitate what their "sources" (read assorted jokers) tell them without the basics of fact checking or even reaching out for a counter opinion -as this guy did by mailing the Russians. Who of course did not have the brains to respond but then came out with a snooty "Indian's cant make stuff and are blaming us" reply. Great going, guys, typical.

Its more and more becoming apparent that Czar Putin's bureaucrats have let power go to to their head and are busy alienating the one country and customer that had close affection for Russia.

Go figure.

 

[Damian]

BS about super-duper long rod penetrators

Ekhm, the ~700-740mm long penetrator is not ready yet, only tanks were prepared to use them by installing new autoloader with modified ammo cassettes.

So it is not BS, it is just no ready thus nobody have that new ammunition... other thing is that anyone will get that new ammunition any way due to lack of money.

And hey, Arjun is not anyway better in that matter, when I saw a cut of APFSDS ammunition for Arjun gun I could not belive my eyes, it was looking like a NATO 1980's round, very short penetrator that would be capabale to penetrate probably less than the good old 3BM42.

So I would be carefull with hard "patriotic" statements without the full view and deep knowledge on the subject.

It is very easy to compare something using Discovery Channel methods, but reality is different and... more interesting.

As for the rest, of course it could look just like You say, or it can be completely different.

 

[Archer]

What?! Just save money and replace that goddamned outdated rifled gun with a smoothbore one, You will be abale to use more types of ammunition and better APFSDS ammunition. For example You will be abale to replace HESH with much more advanced Israeli Kalanit HE ammunition with programmabale fuze... Arjun gun is outdated by the world wide standards, christ even British wanted to replace their L30 rifled guns with smoothbore one, but rearming tanks also would need deep redesign of turret and hull, thus it was too expensive, in Arjun there will be no problem and smoothbore with modern ammunition will enhance firepower over any exceptations.

Damian, for all the efforts you put into your book knowledge and internet forum hopping, you clealrly haven't conversed with designers, manufacturers or even industrial sources dealing with anything Indian def. Because if you did, you'd understand as to the potential of the Arjun 120 mm & why its being retained & why it will continue to be retained. I'd mentioned earlier that more ammo is on the way, while some were persistently asking for "proof", go check out the couple of lines in Shukla's article about the same. All said & done, the consensus amongst all those who have actually used the gun, worked on it, and have kept track of its progress, Indian & OEMs, is that it's excellent & has significant growth potential and will continue to be retained. That's the reality of the situation. ARDE nowhere lacks in resources to keep the gun & its ammunition current, and nor do they have any shortage of partners.

 

[Damian]

Damian, for all the efforts you put into your book knowledge and internet forum hopping, you clealrly haven't conversed with designers, manufacturers or even industrial sources dealing with anything Indian def. Because if you did, you'd understand as to the potential of the Arjun 120 mm & why its being retained & why it will continue to be retained.

Of course You and designers have right to talk about superiority of Arjun gun over other designs but I am amazed how these designers are ignoring years and litteraly tons of experiences of designers from other countries. I just can't understand why these designers still don't accept fact that rifled guns are history, past, they have no future. Did these designers even tested the old RH-120/L44 gun? Or it's non German versions? This relatively short gun have a maximum pressure in barrel of more than 7000 bars and with modern ammunition can penetrate incredibly thick RHA plates, the pressure in RH-120 is bigger than in 2A46 or 2A46M... but yeah, maybe their view is based on a simple fact that they never seen or tested a really modern 120mm smoothbore gun... strange because Israelis MG521 or MG253 series are based on German design, and I think that Israelis would not mind to show or even sold their guns to India.

I'd mentioned earlier that more ammo is on the way, while some were persistently asking for "proof", go check out the couple of lines in Shukla's article about the same.

Well when I will see this ammo then I will say something about it and I will be abale to compare penetrator to other state of the art penetrators (of course there is also question on materials but I will not speculate about it).

All said & done, the consensus amongst all those who have actually used the gun, worked on it, and have kept track of its progress, Indian & OEMs, is that it's excellent & has significant growth potential and will continue to be retained. That's the reality of the situation. ARDE nowhere lacks in resources to keep the gun & its ammunition current, and nor do they have any shortage of partners.

In the same time even Brits admitted that rifled guns are thing of the past and smoothbore is better... but if someone want to be different than the others then it is his problem... don't complain later that others are using more advanced stuff than You.

 

[Archer]

Ekhm, the ~700-740mm long penetrator is not ready yet, only tanks were prepared to use them by installing new autoloader with modified ammo cassettes.

So it is not BS, it is just no ready thus nobody have that new ammunition... other thing is that anyone will get that new ammunition any way due to lack of money.

And hey, Arjun is not anyway better in that matter, when I saw a cut of APFSDS ammunition for Arjun gun I could not belive my eyes, it was looking like a NATO 1980's round, very short penetrator that would be capabale to penetrate probably less than the good old 3BM42.

So I would be carefull with hard "patriotic" statements without the full view and deep knowledge on the subject.

It is very easy to compare something using Discovery Channel methods, but reality is different and... more interesting.

As for the rest, of course it could look just like You say, or it can be completely different.

Damian, don't waste my time with your stupid claims of "patriotic statements" etc. Understood? I don't have the patience or the inclination to put up with your claims which are way off the reality, especially when you try and use your lack of first hand knowledge, combined with internet reading to patronise those who actually know the facts at hand.

First off, realise this, that the standard Russian round for export is still the BM-42. That's it. They have not been able to productionize anything better in a stable manner. That's what is available to India and their other so called partners. All your talk and the net talk of advanced versions of the BM-42, the BM-42M etc are all rubbish. Russian tank industry officials have sheepishly told several of us folks at a public event that they suggest their customers explore "alternatives" since they cannot guarantee newer rounds, and that the Russian ammo manufacturers simultaneously rely on them for orders for the BM-42.

Second, your claims about the Arjun round just show how limited your knowledge base is. It's performance is fairly respectable and the information is actually available at public events. No, I am not going to spoon feed you with it either, because it is a round that may be actually employed by my nation in combat. Unlike Poland, India shares hot borders. The Arjun round in current production FYI, was kept at the MK1 level in order to convincingly demonstrate that India had mastered FSAPDS production for the Arjun and could make it locally, and also provide enough rounds for current employment. Its far behind the technology DRDO has today for FSAPDS & as matter of fact since the Arjun has now been cleared for production and is being delivered, as planned, improved rounds are on the way.

Like I said before, you have fairly little awareness of what's what about India & Indian defence. Before spouting off about patriotism and the like, learn a little bit of humility, it'll go a long way. Everything's not on the internet either. You seem to think that you are some divinity when it comes to armor and that everyone else only watches Discovery Channel etc. Sorry to disabuse you of your self belief, but there are enough of us plebe's around who know enough to know what's what. Let alone the tankers like Ajai etc who actually employed tanks in the army for many odd years.

 

[Archer]

Of course You and designers have right to talk about superiority of Arjun gun over other designs but I am amazed how these designers are ignoring years and litteraly tons of experiences of designers from other countries. I just can't understand why these designers still don't accept fact that rifled guns are history, past, they have no future. Did these designers even tested the old RH-120/L44 gun? Or it's non German versions? This relatively short gun have a maximum pressure in barrel of more than 7000 bars and with modern ammunition can penetrate incredibly thick RHA plates, the pressure in RH-120 is bigger than in 2A46 or 2A46M... but yeah, maybe their view is based on a simple fact that they never seen or tested a really modern 120mm smoothbore gun... strange because Israelis MG521 or MG253 series are based on German design, and I think that Israelis would not mind to show or even sold their guns to India.

Damian, those designers do these things in real life. They have decades of experience. India actually has had over 2 decades of experience with smoothbore cannons, and it can literally pick & choose the who's who of world armor to work with them. Yet they have peers noting the rifled cannons have significant potential. Some of your statements are so ludicrous, and so amusingly patronizing that I really wonder how old you are. "They have never seen or tested a modern 120 mm smoothbore gun" - sure. Because you think so.

Well when I will see this ammo then I will say something about it and I will be abale to compare penetrator to other state of the art penetrators (of course there is also question on materials but I will not speculate about it).

You will not see this penetrator till DRDO releases it. You will only know the details if you are in Indian industry or in a partner organization that works with DRDO or OFB or the Propellant units (pvt sector) that work on it.

In the same time even Brits admitted that rifled guns are thing of the past and smoothbore is better... but if someone want to be different than the others then it is his problem... don't complain later that others are using more advanced stuff than You.

Brits admitted nothing of the sort I'm afraid. I have spoken to Challenger commanders who love that gun they used and the only issue they had was that the UK MOD did not have enough funds to keep developing ammunition for it. India does not face that problem.

 

[Damian]

First off, realise this, that the standard Russian round for export is still the BM-42. That's it. They have not been able to productionize anything better in a stable manner. That's what is available to India and their other so called partners. All your talk and the net talk of advanced versions of the BM-42, the BM-42M etc are all rubbish. Russian tank industry officials have sheepishly told several of us folks at a public event that they suggest their customers explore "alternatives" since they cannot guarantee newer rounds, and that the Russian ammo manufacturers simultaneously rely on them for orders for the BM-42.

Did You even read my post carefully, did I say that they have a better alternatives? I said that ne penetrator is not ready, and I even said that it is not known if it will be purchased by anyone.

Reading is really so difficult?

Second, your claims about the Arjun round just show how limited your knowledge base is. It's performance is fairly respectable and the information is actually available at public events.

Simple question, how much RHA or composite armor it penetrated? Because with it's lenght it can be preatty hard to penetrate front armor of T-80UD (Object 478BE)... think about that.

No, I am not going to spoon feed you with it either, because it is a round that may be actually employed by my nation in combat. Unlike Poland, India shares hot borders.

And? If You would have smoothbore gun You would just buy a licence for better ammunition, like KEW-A1.

The Arjun round in current production FYI, was kept at the MK1 level in order to convincingly demonstrate that India had mastered FSAPDS production for the Arjun and could make it locally, and also provide enough rounds for current employment.

Yeah and? With smoothbore there would be no problems, not to mention that rifled guns have due to rifling shorter life, so IA will need to more often change barrels.

Oh by the way, it is APFSDS - Armor Piercing Fin Stabilized Discarding Sabot, not FSAPDS thing... with english language nomenclature we should stick with proper english designation names, not some... thingies.

Its far behind the technology DRDO has today for FSAPDS & as matter of fact since the Arjun has now been cleared for production and is being delivered, as planned, improved rounds are on the way.

Nice to hear... how far behind it is after APFSDS rounds for smoothbore guns, what capabilities it have, what is specification for this ammunition (penetrator lenght, diameter, weight) etc. Any estimations? Anything?

Like I said before, you have fairly little awareness of what's what about India & Indian defence. Before spouting off about patriotism and the like, learn a little bit of humility, it'll go a long way. Everything's not on the internet either.

So give hard data, not laconic statements... and BTW I said it many times, I preffer books, but if someone have time and know where to search, such person can find real goldies in the internet.

 

[Damian]

Damian, those designers do these things in real life. They have decades of experience. India actually has had over 2 decades of experience with smoothbore cannons, and it can literally pick & choose the who's who of world armor to work with them. Yet they have peers noting the rifled cannons have significant potential. Some of your statements are so ludicrous, and so amusingly patronizing that I really wonder how old you are. "They have never seen or tested a modern 120 mm smoothbore gun" - sure. Because you think so.

Wow, so Indian designers probably have longer experiences working also on rifled design than designers from US, UK, France, Germany or Russia, yeah and probably designers from other countries are pure morons that choosed flawed smoothbore guns.

Yeah the whole world is wrong, only briliant designers from India that designed rifled gun have right!

Brits admitted nothing of the sort I'm afraid. I have spoken to Challenger commanders who love that gun they used and the only issue they had was that the UK MOD did not have enough funds to keep developing ammunition for it. India does not face that problem.

It is easy to be in love with something if we have never have alternative, Americans used both rifled and smoothbore guns, they preffer smoothbores, same Germans, French, Italians, Russians, Japanese, South Koreans, yeah, they all are morons, yeah even British were morons when they wanted to replace Challenger 2 rifled gun with smootbore one, they tested that gun, it was superior to L30 rifled, but due to inability to store one piece ammo in CR2 and too expensive redesign, the whole program was closed.

You should read all possible sources on some subject before making statements.

Oh and Yeah, Challenger 2 even with new FCS was defeated by MBT's with smoothbore guns in all trails... but yeah, smoothbores were probably just inferior, this is why they won.

There was sarcasm in some parts, just to let You know.

 

[Archer]

These days Shukla is biased towards U.S. defence equipment, May be they have hired few Indian defence journo for PR.

Has it struck all of you experts that those who have operated Russian equipment, seen its strengths and weaknesses first hand, are fed up with Russian armtwisting (as a supplier) would naturally gravitate towards exploring other options? Occam's razor. Instead, y'all think he is an American agent, brilliant.
Give India enough time, to evaluate all vendors & they'll be equally "biased" against everyone. At least he has woken up and realized the only sure shot support is from a local production and supply base. And by no means does he spare the PSUs from scathing critique either.

According to Prasun Gupta, The Russians have learnt a bitter lesson from the former eastern Bloc countries like Poland, Slovakia, Czech republic & Croatia (part of erstwhile Yugoslavia) that have blatantly sold T-72 clones post-1991 and therefore Moscow has been determined never to let history repeat itself. That's why it even refused to supply the 2A46M cannons for the Malaysian PT-91Ms of Polish origin, and the cannons were ultimately supplied by Kerametal of Slovakia. And Russia isn't the sole exception when it comes to practising such policies. For instance, how many countries using the Rheinmetal-developed 120mm smoothbore cannon have actually produced it under licence? Not the Japanese, not the South Koreans, not the Swedes, Singaporeans or Poles, not Israel, and not Turkey. So why should anyone expect Russia to make the exception for India? And what exactly is to be gained by making such cannons in-country? How does it translate into any operational advantage over one's enemies? And especially in India's case it is far more cost-effective to import the 2A46M-2 directly from Russia and use the money saved to further improve and enhance the performance of the Arjun MBT's indigenous 120mm rifled-bore cannon.

Prasun Gupta - the self proclaimed "defence expert with combat experience". Who BTW, has been proven wrong in article after article (the last joke being his claim the Prahar was an Israeli LORA, then EXTRA, then hasty edits after the fact). C'mon guys, choose your sources better. Ajai Shukla by virtue of his army background has access to high security labs and establishments and is willing to name names and quote sources. On the other hand y'all want to rely on the likes of Sengupta, who routinely rips off stuff and is so wrong that its not even funny.

 

[Archer]

Wow, so Indian designers probably have longer experiences working also on rifled design than designers from US, UK, France, Germany or Russia, yeah and probably designers from other countries are pure morons that choosed flawed smoothbore guns.

Yeah the whole world is wrong, only briliant designers from India that designed rifled gun have right!

The designers in those countries are not morons, Damian. You would approach the usage of that term, to have not even realized the simple fact that designers design according to threat perception and user requirements.

If you don't even understand this basic fact then you have no business attempting to play expert-expert, and then thinking that your silly sarcasm would somehow pass muster. Guess what, it didn't. My dear Discovery Channel expert (since you so love the term), India went for the 120 mm rifled because it had a beautiful experience with the 105mm rifled on its Vijayanta, and because the Army asked for HESH.

If you had actually any idea of how devastating HESH rounds can be versus even fortified structures you'd understand. Because the Pakistanis were at the time putting pillboxes behind their first line of DCBs. As such it was essential the Arjun have a cost effective round it could lob in plenty, plus have a FSAPDS for its primary role against other tanks. So you didn't know this, congratulations. What you apparently also didn't know is the Arjun 120 mm rifled was a clean sheet design developed at the time with design consultancy with an European firm. They could have gone for a smoothbore, but chose not to, given the requirements and detailed input into design growth potential.

So, one - the whole world argument is arguably one of the most ridiculous you have made so far. And second, as usual, with zero knowledge of the context or what the Arjun gun has achieved in actual trials versus the T-90. Third, something about the real world, not book knowledge - if it ain't broke, don't fix it. That's rule number of 1 of prudent engineering practise. I am dismayed they didn't follow your gracious advise about the entire world (which in 90% of cases license produced existing designs from either the Soviet or German baseline as versus developing their own tailored to their requirements as India did), but then again, they lacked your scintillating knowledge, and of course, your decades of actual hands on engineering expertise in tank design.

Which of course you have, right?

It is easy to be in love with something if we have never have alternative, Americans used both rifled and smoothbore guns, they preffer smoothbores, same Germans, French, Italians, Russians, Japanese, South Koreans, yeah, they all are morons, yeah even British were morons when they wanted to replace Challenger 2 rifled gun with smootbore one, they tested that gun, it was superior to L30 rifled, but due to inability to store one piece ammo in CR2 and too expensive redesign, the whole program was closed.

You should read all possible sources on some subject before making statements.

Yes, Damian everyone is a moron when they poke holes in your book knowledge and over the top claims. I really need to "read sources" and those even older and wiser than I, and who actually used these things in combat differ from you in their perception. As matter of fact, one of those "morons" who should "read all possible sources on the subject" was assigned to the engineering project which was to replace the L30 rifled, and referred to it as purely driven by economic requirements of long term ammunition sustainment. If I ever do converse with that "moron" again, I will be sure to tell him the Great Damian of Poland, the Hussar of armoured warfare, will set him to rights.

Oh and Yeah, Challenger 2 even with new FCS was defeated by MBT's with smoothbore guns in all trails... but yeah, smoothbores were probably just inferior, this is why they won.

Yes, you'd have information of course, about the ammunition used, the FCS+Stabilization, the suspension effects, the overall training levels, and never mind, the in depth information about all the "trails" (not trials as we inferiors refer to them as). As you'd know all that since you were there, actually firing the Challenger2 (whose gun incidentally, and ammunition, and FCS, and GCE, and suspension are nowhere the same as that on the Arjun) - you'd know better. Wonderful Damian, we really should start ringing bells when you speak. How gracious of you to educate all the "morons". How much you suffer.

There was sarcasm in some parts, just to let You know.

Oh thank you. I'd have never realized. No need to capitalize "You", after all, I am not divinity like you. The self appointed font of all things correct about armor.

After all, didn't you even design this awesome piece of kit.

Monty Python-Holy Hand Grenade - YouTube

 

[Archer]

Did You even read my post carefully, did I say that they have a better alternatives? I said that ne penetrator is not ready, and I even said that it is not known if it will be purchased by anyone.

Reading is really so difficult?

I see, that was the reason behind that silly, irrelevant comment about patriotism? Before attempting to use sarcasm, or state the obvious "new rounds are not ready because....", yeah which we all know, do some reading & interpretation yourself about what was said, or better still ask. There are a bunch of kids including one especially who mangles all the ammo designations in Indian service, postures as an expert, quotes your claims liberally, and had been busy informing all and sundry about advanced Russian long rod penetrators etc. When aforesaid BM-42 variant's exist only in his fertile imagination and on the internet. In real life, we have none of them. Let alone the next generation, advanced ones on the paper tank (only prototype) T-90 whatever. All rubbish and hype. In real life, we in India are struggling to even make the existing T-90s, which tank has huge dollops of 80's-early-90's Soviet derived tech, because the Russians have been playing eenie meenie moe with their contractual agreements. And then there is talk of super-duper Russian advances which will make everything alright. Color me unimpressed.

Simple question, how much RHA or composite armor it penetrated? Because with it's lenght it can be preatty hard to penetrate front armor of T-80UD (Object 478BE)... think about that.

Who in his right mind would tell you that? Is this is some sort of game, talking "fun stuff" about weapons systems? Nobody sane would or should tell you about their country's frontline weapon systems. And I won't be either, even if the information was at some public event. That information has no business being yacked or speculated about. When India mass produces its series 2 rounds which it will, and these series 1 rounds are out, perhaps then speculation or discussion is warranted.

And? If You would have smoothbore gun You would just buy a licence for better ammunition, like KEW-A1.

India is not in the business of buying licenses. The Arjun was & is about creating an entire ecosystem where India does not have to rely overmuch on continued support from external OEMs, their R&D, and their "licenses". India would rather work on its own systems and at best do JV's where it owns IP.

Yeah and? With smoothbore there would be no problems, not to mention that rifled guns have due to rifling shorter life, so IA will need to more often change barrels.

Irrelevant to the point I made.

Oh by the way, it is APFSDS - Armor Piercing Fin Stabilized Discarding Sabot, not FSAPDS thing... with english language nomenclature we should stick with proper english designation names, not some... thingies.

Please don't play these silly word games with me, least of all in English, a language neither one of us owns. The Indian Army, and the developers call it FSAPDS. I'll choose to call it FSAPDS, if you don't like it, doesnt really matter, because this is beyond silly. This is another one of the phenomenally silly games that you suddenly come up with, the claim of sticking to some ridiculous jargon and then insisting that the one you like is the only way or whatever. Most adults don't care, and quite frankly, its high time you realise how ludicrous this sort of kid stuff ("my jargon is the right jargon") is. Especially when the makers, developers, users all say FSAPDS and we all know what it means!!!

Nice to hear... how far behind it is after APFSDS rounds for smoothbore guns, what capabilities it have, what is specification for this ammunition (penetrator lenght, diameter, weight) etc. Any estimations? Anything?

No speculation from my end on this topic as I said. And none either, till the developers choose to reveal whatever sanitized details that they do. All I can/will/should say is, even without advancing beyond where they are with previous rounds, the ones developed after the Arjun, the Arjun round will improve to a level better than what we currently get off the shelf for our Russian tanks.

So give hard data, not laconic statements... and BTW I said it many times, I preffer books, but if someone have time and know where to search, such person can find real goldies in the internet.

Look up the term "laconic", and do a bit of digging as to why it came about and why it achieved common usage. Brevity / laconic statements are very useful in conversing about topics that don't or shouldn't require much to be said.