Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

[p2prada]

One more correction. The AMK-340 shells which were destroyed numbered a little over 88000 and not 40k. Cheers.

This was immediately after the rounds were destroyed.
PIB Press Releases

Titbit information:
The Romanian penetrator used in Israeli shells provide greater penetration than the 3BM42 and is 678mm in length and the shell leaves the barrel at 1700m/s. Pretty neat.

The expected penetration given in the RFI is 225mm at 62 deg from 2000m for this type of shell. So, that would give it around, what, 450-500mm at 0deg and 2000m. Since RFIs are bare minimum, we can increase the expected penetration to 550mm, maybe a bit more if we take actual result as 300mm at 62deg.

This may be the infamous T-1 round which was destroyed. Or could be Israeli.

I feel they are Indian because the round designations read Mk2 and Mk3. Must be old rounds for T-72.

BTW, the AMK designations are for IA and OFB designations are called T-1, T-2 etc.

 

[p2prada]

But is the ZTZ 99A1 is worthy enough to be so much concerned.Their armor layout doesn't seem to be good enough,ask Damian.I think present Arjun MkI should be able to defeat them if ARDE can provide something like DM 53.The Arjun's gun can withstand even greater chamber pressure than Rheinmetall L55,it should be able to handle a high pressure round like DM 53.

See. The problem is even if we say the Arjun Mk2 is better than the T-90, the numbers we are going to eventually produce seem to be way too less for it to be used effectively.

We have 3 offensive corps and 5 defensive corps. Each corp is expected to have 500 tanks. The only corps that have Arjun are the South Western 33rd Armoured division. Not good enough if we keep tanks at the back of the line and if only 1 Corps is using Arjun, that too in Rajasthan while the other 7 Corps use T-72s and T-90s.

If Arjun gets a DM-53 class, heck we have an advantage. But what if the Chinese get a DM-53 standard round as well. The Arjun's gun handles lesser pressure than even the 2A46M2. L55 is somewhere else.

It all depends on how quickly we are able to produce Arjun Mk2s in the long run. Production is not set to start until 2014.

 

[Storm shadow]

See. The problem is even if we say the Arjun Mk2 is better than the T-90, the numbers we are going to eventually produce seem to be way too less for it to be used effectively.

We have 3 offensive corps and 5 defensive corps. Each corp is expected to have 500 tanks. The only corps that have Arjun are the South Western 33rd Armoured division. Not good enough if we keep tanks at the back of the line and if only 1 Corps is using Arjun, that too in Rajasthan while the other 7 Corps use T-72s and T-90s.

If Arjun gets a DM-53 class, heck we have an advantage. But what if the Chinese get a DM-53 standard round as well. The Arjun's gun handles lesser pressure than even the 2A46M2. L55 is somewhere else.

It all depends on how quickly we are able to produce Arjun Mk2s in the long run. Production is not set to start until 2014.

Yeah,the fewer number of Arjuns is definately a big problem.
Regarding Chinese development of DM 53 equivalent,only viable option is to fast implementation of the composite-NERA combo aka HEMRL developed Hybrid armor coupled with some heavy ERA.
I think you have missed something.Damian and I were having a conversation w.r.t chamber pressures of various guns.According to Damian,
Rheinmetall L44-7100 Bar
L55-7600 Bar
British L30-6100 Bar
2A46M 2-6500 Bar
Now as per official info,ARDE L52 has maximum chamber pressure of 840 MPa=8400 Bar(1 MPa=10 Bar),though current rounds are fired in only 620 MPa.So if Rheinmetall L55 can handle DM53,ARDE L52 should also be able to.A little modification to the sabots by adding ball bearings should do the trick.

 

[Damian]

But is the ZTZ 99A1 is worthy enough to be so much concerned.Their armor layout doesn't seem to be good enough,ask Damian.

Well ZTZ-99A1 is not good for western or russian/ukrainian standards but this doesent mean it is not dangerous.

But what if the Chinese get a DM-53 standard round as well.

I highly doubt that, it have really long penetrator, and Chinese definetly not done any modifications to their autoloading system (same as in T-72)... and it is uncertain if even after such modifications so long penetrator can be used in such autoloader.

Besides this there is one problem with DM53, it's propelant charge is highly energetic but also... it reacts with gun barrel like acid, increasing wear and tear of gun barrel, this is why Germans designed DM63 that is just DM53 with different propelant charge, less sensitive to ambient temperatures but also less energetic.

The real mystery however is M829A3 propelant charge, IRCC it is also said to be highly energetic (generating very high pressure), nothing strange, even with so powerfull propelant M829A3 penetrator that is ~800mm long, ~20-25mm in diameter and around ~10 kg heavy is fying with only ~1555m/s while other rounds can achieve ~1700-1800m/s.

 

[Storm shadow]

We can produce a lot of barrels if required,so no worry for barrel wear.All we need now is a state of the art FSAPDS round for our Arjun tanks and DM 53 can be just that round.I think India should approach Germany for a modified DM53.

 

[p2prada]

Isn't the M829A3 penetrator length 920mm. 800 mm is the estimated penetration.

 

[Damian]

Yeah sure, if the data for ARDE 120mm rifled gun used in Arjun is true not some desinformation or propaganda. The guns I provided data were and are used by several different countries so it would be much harder to manipulate data on them, it is better to be carefull with some manufacturers statements. Not that it is something bad, rather normal thing to show own product in best light... but a rifled gun generating so high pressure, damn, it would be scary to fire this thing, rifling can increase stress on barrel with such pressure.

Of course it is only theory, without any tests with different ammunition, propelant charges etc. we can't say anything certain.

 

[Damian]

Isn't the M829A3 penetrator length 920mm. 800 mm is the estimated penetration.

Nope, ~900mm is the total lenght of round, penetrator is ~800mm.

 

[Storm shadow]

@Damian,yeah,they may have manipulated the figures.Actually,in this part of world,there seems to be too much secrecy and disinformation.Or it may be true.Can't say anything with guarantee

 

[Damian]

It is allways desinformation, everywhere, ones were making desinformation to downgrade capabilities of their equipment to others, others will make desinformation to hide weaknesses of their weapons etc. etc. etc.

This is like with NATO composite armors, for so many years we all belived in ceramics encased in honeycomb structure story, just recent conflicts and some documents found in archieves + research of many people from tank lovers community give us at least a hint that there were no ceramics.

I can only say that I know that there are no ceramics from one source, can't say anything more, and do not ask for more.

 

[p2prada]

It is allways desinformation, everywhere, ones were making desinformation to downgrade capabilities of their equipment to others, others will make desinformation to hide weaknesses of their weapons etc. etc. etc.

This is like with NATO composite armors, for so many years we all belived in ceramics encased in honeycomb structure story, just recent conflicts and some documents found in archieves + research of many people from tank lovers community give us at least a hint that there were no ceramics.

I can only say that I know that there are no ceramics from one source, can't say anything more, and do not ask for more.

It is too early to talk about any disinformation they are spreading. For all you know, this could be disinformation as well.

Anyway, yeah! So, the length of the entire projectile is 920mm.

 

[Austin]

Also, both T-90 and Arjun Mk1 are vulnerable to taking considerable damage in Urban combat. The MS and Mk2 remove a lot of this disadvantage. It is not that the T-90 is not future proof, looking at what Pakistan is doing we have a massive advantage in fielding more advanced tanks. But I want the IA to have the same advantage over PA as the IAF has over PAF. You never know if suddenly the Chinese decide to sell them 500-1000 Type 99 derivatives on soft loans. We have started being a bit more aggressive nowadays especially after the South China Sea incident. Luckily tanks aren't an issue on the Chinese side.

Its true we should not understimate the Pakistani but then we should not over estimate them , the current PA force of T-80UD , AL-Khalid and AL-Zarrar is well matched and we even have advantage when it comes to specific areas like better night vision equipment and perhaps better rounds force wide.

As far as urban warfare goes yes it would always be vulnerable beacause your adversary can pick and choose the weak spots and blind areas to hit , the element of surprise in urban warfare lies with the adversary , although i dont think we would ever enter pakistan and fight on the streets of their city and town with Tanks , Its would likely cross the nuclear threshold if it ever comes to that.

The Chinese Tanks looks good but its still an unknown commodity , so we need to avoid both over rating or under rating it ..........also selling Type 99 500 or 1000 tanks wont happen over night and there is the entire issue of logistics training that would takes years to build ......... we can ramp up our own production or worst case just direct import it if the situation ever reaches there.

 

[Austin]

BTW since the current APFSDS are known to use ball bearing to nullify the effect of Spin when fired from rifled barrel wont such an approach itself reduce the KE of the rounds since you would use some of the energy to spin the ball bearing of APFSDS , which when fired from Smooth Bore you wont do it.

 

[Storm shadow]

It is allways desinformation, everywhere, ones were making desinformation to downgrade capabilities of their equipment to others, others will make desinformation to hide weaknesses of their weapons etc. etc. etc.

This is like with NATO composite armors, for so many years we all belived in ceramics encased in honeycomb structure story, just recent conflicts and some documents found in archieves + research of many people from tank lovers community give us at least a hint that there were no ceramics.

I can only say that I know that there are no ceramics from one source, can't say anything more, and do not ask for more.

BTW since the current APFSDS are known to use ball bearing to nullify the effect of Spin when fired from rifled barrel wont such an approach itself reduce the KE of the rounds since you would use some of the energy to spin the ball bearing of APFSDS , which when fired from Smooth Bore you wont do it.

Yeah,that was the case from the start and the rifled gun being more accurate was just a hoax.But little fraction of the energy released by propelant charge are leaked through the grooves of the rifled barrels,very slightly reducing their mussel velocity than a smooth barrel gun of same cal length.

 

[p2prada]

As far as urban warfare goes yes it would always be vulnerable beacause your adversary can pick and choose the weak spots and blind areas to hit , the element of surprise in urban warfare lies with the adversary , although i dont think we would ever enter pakistan and fight on the streets of their city and town with Tanks , Its would likely cross the nuclear threshold if it ever comes to that.

Yeah. We have no plans of entering cities and hold the country like the Americans do.

The Chinese Tanks looks good but its still an unknown commodity , so we need to avoid both over rating or under rating it ..........also selling Type 99 500 or 1000 tanks wont happen over night and there is the entire issue of logistics training that would takes years to build ......... we can ramp up our own production or worst case just direct import it if the situation ever reaches there.

I wonder what the Chinese plans are. They have plenty of Type 90 tanks and is their standard as of today.

 

[Austin]

The expected penetration given in the RFI is 225mm at 62 deg from 2000m for this type of shell. So, that would give it around, what, 450-500mm at 0deg and 2000m. Since RFIs are bare minimum, we can increase the expected penetration to 550mm, maybe a bit more if we take actual result as 300mm at 62deg.

The 3BM42 figures that i have is guaranteed piercing performance, at a distance of 2000 m and 0/60 degrees, of 450/230 mm and an average piercing performance at a Distance of 2000 m always at 0 degrees of 500 mm.

If we are procuring better rounds from other sources then it would have better figures then 3BM42.

I have read the M829A3 APFSDS does a 800 mm penetration at 0 degrees from a distance of 2 Km which is quite nice

 

[p2prada]

Yeah,the fewer number of Arjuns is definately a big problem.
Regarding Chinese development of DM 53 equivalent,only viable option is to fast implementation of the composite-NERA combo aka HEMRL developed Hybrid armor coupled with some heavy ERA.
I think you have missed something.Damian and I were having a conversation w.r.t chamber pressures of various guns.According to Damian,
Rheinmetall L44-7100 Bar
L55-7600 Bar
British L30-6100 Bar
2A46M 2-6500 Bar
Now as per official info,ARDE L52 has maximum chamber pressure of 840 MPa=8400 Bar(1 MPa=10 Bar),though current rounds are fired in only 620 MPa.So if Rheinmetall L55 can handle DM53,ARDE L52 should also be able to.A little modification to the sabots by adding ball bearings should do the trick.

Those figures for other guns are not max pressures. The max pressure of the 2A46M2 is 8500bars. The max pressure for L-55 is well above 9000bars and perhaps even comes closer to 9500bars. Tankies never use max pressure. Arjun will fire at 6200bars, L-55 will fire at 7600bars.

 

[Damian]

@p2p can You tell from where You have this data? This would mean that the good old RH-120/M256 L44 would have more than 8000 bars.

 

[sayareakd]

Part II: Army's delayed orders halts T-90 tank


Views of the T-90S production line at the Heavy Vehicle Factory (HVF), Avadi. The HVF is looking for an army order for 700 more T-90S tanks.

By Ajai Shukla
Avadi, Chennai
Business Standard, 29th Nov 11

If India has a capital for battle tanks, it is the Heavy Vehicle Factory (HVF) at Avadi, outside Chennai. This flagship factory of the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) produces all of India's main battle tanks: the Arjun; the T-90S; and before that the T-72 and the Vijayanta. Of the OFB's total turnover last year of Rs 11,300 crore, HVF alone generated Rs 2,500 crore.

But when Business Standard visited HVF last week, the buzz of production work on the shop floors that build the Indian Army's T-90S tank was drawing to a close. Of the one thousand T-90S tanks that the army plans to build in HVF --- and has already paid Russia licence fees for --- HVF has received an indent for just 300 tanks. With that order likely to be completed by mid-2013, and with no follow-on order in sight, the T-90 line will grind to a halt.

As this newspaper reported yesterday ("Technology transfer, supply of assemblies hit Russian stonewall") Russia's non-compliance with the contract for technology transfer ensured that indigenous production of the T-90S was delayed for 6 years after the contract was signed in January 2001. Now, 11 years after the contract was signed, production is hitting its stride. HVF says 24 tanks were delivered in 2009-10; 51 in 2010-11; it will be 50 this year; and annual production will hit 100 next year (i.e. 2012-13). But there are no army orders beyond that.

Despite that, the MoD has sanctioned expanding the capacity of the T-90S line to 140 tanks per year, says the OFB.

"We are in touch with Army HQ and MoD for the follow-on order of T-90S tanks. The lead-time for positioning of materials and components is about 30 months"¦ that's how long it takes for ordering, getting the material, manufacturing and assembly and delivery. We are progressing the case with the Vice Chief of Army Staff"¦ and have requested the MoD to pursue the matter," says RK Jain, Addition DG of the OFB, who oversees HVF.

The army has apparently held back its indent until it is sure that the T-90S tanks already built by HVF are free of production glitches.

"The army wants indigenous T-90s to be observed and user confidence built up [before placing a fresh indent]. So far, the users have run only the first batch of 24 tanks, delivered in 2009-10, to the extent where they can properly evaluate their performance. The 51 tanks that we delivered in 2010-11 have yet to be adequately exploited," explains Jain.

It is evident that piecemeal ordering is blocking potential economies of scale. MoS for Defence, Rao Inderjit Singh, told the Lok Sabha on 30th Nov 06 that the T-90S tanks that came ready-built from Russia cost Rs 11 crore each; and the knocked down tanks from Russia that were assembled in Avadi cost Rs 12 crore each. But the tanks built in Avadi now cost Rs 18.1 crore, says the OFB.

Asked how much this price could be whittled down through timely bulk orders from the army, HVF officials estimate a potential cost saving of 25-30%. Spurning this opportunity would result in the army paying Rs 3,800 crore more than is necessary for the remaining 700 T-90Ss that HVF will build.

The MoD has not responded to an emailed query from Business Standard, asking why a supplementary indent for more T-90S tanks had not yet been placed on HVF.

A range of facilities feed into HVF's T-90S production line. Two OFB factories in Kanpur build the gun and breach block. Another in Jabalpur builds the recoil system, while another one in Tiruchiralapplli fabricates the 12.7 millimetre air defence gun. The sophisticated thermal imaging sights and gunner's sights come from OFB's Opto-Electronics Factory in Dehradun. The gun stabilizer, which allows the tank to fire accurately while moving, comes from Bharat Electronics Ltd.

Within Avadi, HVF builds major components of the T-90S: the hull, turret, transmission, gearbox and the running gear. Another OFB facility next door, Engine Factory, Avadi, builds the tank's 1000 HP engine. Thousands of minor parts are outsourced to local industry: electrical items, cables, starter generator, instrument panel, hardware and rubber components. According to OFB's Jain, the T-90S has been 70% indigenised; this will increase to 80% next year.

Bringing together all this parts takes 30 months. Then HVF assembles them into a tank.

Piecemeal indenting by the military routinely causes production breaks in India's defence industrial complex, including its defence shipyards and public sector behemoths like Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) and Bharat Electronics Ltd (BEL). Senior officials in these defence companies that that jerky indenting hinders the smooth planning of production cycles, economic utilization of skilled manpower, and the provision of lead times needed for out-sourcing materials and assemblies from external vendors.

Broadsword: Part II: Army’s delayed orders halts T-90 tank

 

[p2prada]

@p2p can You tell from where You have this data? This would mean that the good old RH-120/M256 L44 would have more than 8000 bars.

I read it somewhere on tanknet when we were discussing about the T-90 in July.

The T-72s gun with our own manufacturing techniques, the 2A46, has a max pressure of 8000 bars. The gun is called 2A46 Maple. I am quite certain the L-44 does more than 8000 bars. But reaching such high pressures on any tank gun except the L-55 is suicidal.

EDIT: The original max pressure for 2A46 was 6700 bars. So, getting it to 8000 bars is quite impressive. EFC was increased from 250 to 1700.