Know Your 'Rafale'

[ersakthivel]

Is that established? I thought Parrikar mentioned somewhere that it may take longer than that.

If that takes longer GOI may buy some off the shelf t-50 like it was done in Su-30 with first 40 off the shelf purchase.

 

[Singh]

@ersakthivel you have put way too many nested quotes sir.

1. Re: FGFA
Your whole argument is based on the premise that FGFA is coming by 2020 and in fact will be delivered within 36 months of us ordering it.

Unfortunately you have not been following the news coming out of Russia or India. FGFA is in the freezer at the moment.

Hell, even Russians are saying that they will only go for 12 Pak-Fa and instead will rely on Sukhois.

2. Re: MMRCA cancellation and HAL

No point in dragging this because the deal is scrapped and HAL ain't gonna build Rafale, atleast not for the moment. Neither is HAL going to build FGFA it appears.

3. Re: MKI and Rafale

You have made a tall claim on MKI service availability, this will have to be backed up. So far it still deserves its epithet hangar queen.
You have made another tall claim on MKI and Rafale, and they both have huge RCS and IR signatures. I'd argue that you are v v wrong.
You have chosen to ignore the PLAAF composition, they also field Sukhois.

4. Re: 36 Rafale order

You are again arguing that FGFA will be a reality in 2020 and therefore Rafale should be scrapped.

 

[ersakthivel]

@ersakthivel you have put way too many nested quotes sir.

1. Re: FGFA
Your whole argument is based on the premise that FGFA is coming by 2020 and in fact will be delivered within 36 months of us ordering it.

Unfortunately you have not been following the news coming out of Russia or India. FGFA is in the freezer at the moment.

Hell, even Russians are saying that they will only go for 12 Pak-Fa and instead will rely on Sukhois.

2. Re: MMRCA cancellation and HAL

No point in dragging this because the deal is scrapped and HAL ain't gonna build Rafale, atleast not for the moment. Neither is HAL going to build FGFA it appears.

3. Re: MKI and Rafale

You have made a tall claim on MKI service availability, this will have to be backed up. So far it still deserves its epithet hangar queen.
You have made another tall claim on MKI and Rafale, and they both have huge RCS and IR signatures. I'd argue that you are v v wrong.
You have chosen to ignore the PLAAF composition, they also field Sukhois.

4. Re: 36 Rafale order

You are again arguing that FGFA will be a reality in 2020 and therefore Rafale should be scrapped.

Saurav jha has tweeted that the 12 T-0 order of russia was just for the coming yea due to funds crunch,r and not for eternity.

i did not make the tall claim, the claim was made by DM.

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...mki-s-poor-serviceability-114102300006_1.html

According to ministry of defence (MoD) figures accessed by Business Standard, the serviceability rate of the Su-30MKI was just 48 per cent till last year. The remaining fighters were undergoing repair or maintenance.

Today, availability has risen slightly to 55 per cent, far lower than advanced western air forces, which generate 80-85 per cent availability rates. In terms of aircraft numbers, only 106 of the 193 Su-30MKIs that the IAF flies today would be available in war. The remaining 87 fighters, each worth Rs 358 crore at current prices, would remain on the ground.

"That's more than Rs 30,000 crore just sitting there in hangars," notes a senior MoD official.

Last month, The defence ministry held two high-level meetings to find solutions to this problem. According to figures presented in those meeting

(a) 20 per cent of the fleet, i.e. some 39 Su-30MKIs, are undergoing "first line" and "second line" maintenance or inspections at any time, which is the IAF's responsibility;

(b) Another 11-12 per cent of the fleet is undergoing major repair and overhaul by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL); and

(c) 13-14 per cent of the fleet is grounded, awaiting major systems or repairs - the technical terms is: "aircraft on ground". For decades, IAF has accused HAL of poor workmanship and maintenance. At the MoD meeting on Su-30MKI serviceability, HAL turned the tables on the IAF.

MoD was informed about serious problems with IAF's management of spares. By standard norms, a fighter fleet consumes five per cent of its worth in consumables and spares each year. By that benchmark the Su-30MKI fleet, currently worth about Rs 69,000 crore - 193 Su-30MKIs at Rs 358 crore a fighter - should consume spares worth Rs 3,450 crore annually. Yet, IAF orders from HAL add up to less than Rs 50 crore, including ground handling equipment.


Without competent inventory management by IAF, and with spares ordered piecemeal when defects arise, Su-30MKI fighters spend weeks on the ground awaiting spares.

To ensure that 13-14 per cent of the Su-30MKI fleet is not grounded for want of spares, HAL has stockpiled spares worth Rs 400 crore in Nashik. According to S Subrahmanyan, the chief of HAL's Nashik facility, the inventory is based on a study of consumption patterns of Su-30MKI spares over the preceding five years.



HAL says this buffer stock includes spares that are still purchased from Russia, because low consumption volumes make indigenisation non-cost-effective. Even so, non-availability of these spares could ground aircraft. Simultaneously, HAL has proposed to MoD that IAF must order spares required over a five-year period, stocking them at 25 Equipment Depot, IAF's holding depot for spares at Nashik.

Separately, HAL has offered the IAF "Performance Based Logistics" (PBL) for the Su-30MKI fleet - a solution common in advanced western air forces. PBL would bind HAL to maintain the Su-30MKI, providing the IAF a specified serviceability rate - calculated in flight hours, or as a percentage of the total aircraft fleet - in exchange for an annual service charge. Besides saving maintenance costs for the IAF, PBL has been found to encourage quality manufacture, since manufacturers know they will be responsible for keeping the aircraft serviceable through its operational life.

MoD officials say IAF dislikes PBL model, because outsourcing maintenance to HAL threatens a large maintenance empire built around "base repair depots", manned by IAF personnel. In 2008-09, IAF rejected HAL's proposal for a PBL contract for maintaining the Hawk advanced jet trainer.

HAL is confident that it can deliver higher serviceability rates for the Su-30MKI than the current 58 per cent. The company has argued that raising aircraft availability by 20 per cent would make 40 Su-30MKI additionally available to IAF, effectively adding two fighter squadrons to its strike power.

The Su-30MKI fleet, which currently numbers 193 fighters - 50 built in Russia and 143 built by HAL, Nashik - will rise to 272 fighters by 2018-19, when HAL delivers the last of the 222 fighters it will build.

Got the details of the dirty games being played around "Hanger Queen" status of SU-30 MKI under the superlative UPA regime?

ten months all is history now, with solutions being implemented by DM.

Satisfied?

Please google and find out what is the RCS of rafales with the so called "9 ton weapons ", when it goes into deep strike in tibet?

How would you believe the words of IAF higher ups who order (Yet, IAF orders from HAL add up to less than Rs 50 crore, including ground handling equipment.) just 50 cr of spares for Su-30 MKI and crow to the whole world that any point of time more than half the IAf fleet is grounded?

but these retired chair marshal types like Manmohan Bahadur will stand up in line to lie that with ,"Simillar external loads Rafale has three times the range of Su-30 MKI".

the kind of games played around this rafale deal citing poor availability of Su-30 MKI is disgusting to any indian tax payer.

On a side note IAf proposed to keep more than 200 crore worth of spares for their ubber fighter Pliatus trainer!!!!

 

[Singh]

Saurav jha has tweeted that the 12 T-0 order of russia was just for the coming yea due to funds crunch,r and not for eternity.

i did not make the tall claim, the claim was made by DM.

Please google and find out what is the RCS of rafales with the so called "9 ton weapons ", when it goes into deep strike in tibet?

I don't take the words of Mr Jha as the gospel truth. Although even a layman knows that Russia is down in the dumps at the moment. Although, there was a DFIte who refused to believe that Russia could be bogged down. To come to the point, Russians don't have the cash for a 5th gen fighter development nor for its induction, and we are supposed to not only fund it but also buy the whole lot ? Sounds like a farce to me.

Are you suggesting that Rafale's RCS and IR signature will be equivalent to a MKI ?

 

[ersakthivel]

I don't take the words of Mr Jha as the gospel truth. Although even a layman knows that Russia is down in the dumps at the moment. Although, there was a DFIte who refused to believe that Russia could be bogged down. To come to the point, Russians don't have the cash for a 5th gen fighter development nor for its induction, and we are supposed to not only fund it but also buy the whole lot ? Sounds like a farce to me.

Are you suggesting that Rafale's RCS and IR signature will be equivalent to a MKI ?

With new age ASEA radars getting more and more sensitive, these figures will become irrelevant to decide 20 billion dollar new buy.

Every twin engine fighter has IRSt penalty, does thas mean superiority of tejas and gripen in IRST department make it better than rafale?

Same goes to RCS every single engined fighter will have much lower loaded and clean config RCS, does that man double engined larger fighters are inferior?

Point is unless there is a critical RCS advantage for Rafale that can evade detection with external weapon loads it can not be offered as justification, because all external weapon carrying fighters show up on enemy Awacs 400 Km away, whether it is rafale or Su-30 MKI what is the point? Only tejas will have slight measurable lead in this area, but it will have lower range and load.

Even in clean config higher frequency (other than x band) radars can pick up rafale , because it's low clean config RCS is given only for X band fire control radars , not higher band AWACS search radars.

Till recently Russia received ship loads of dollar from high oil and gas prices and it was in this period t-50 was developed.

T-50 is right now flying with older engine. new engine development is progressing.

Same with rafale, it is flying with 75 kn engines and its new 90 kn engine development is being proposed.It is currently flying with Mica missiles and metero development is proposed. it is currently flying with non Asea radar and will have ASEA radar soon. Because with dwindling orders Dassault too is finding the going tough and currently France too is not in the pink of economic health.

So shall we drop rafales too?

 

[Singh]

Till recently Russia received ship loads of dollar from high oil and gas prices and it was in this period t-50 was developed.

As a corollary till Russia doesn't receive ship loads of dollar from high oil and gas prices T-50 will not be a reality.

 

[power_monger]

3. MKI as the backbone ? Huge RCS, lights up IRST, hangar queen, and Chinese are fielding similar and/or better crafts.

Do you know the RCS of Su-30mki? Also the availability of Su-30mki in Russia?

 

[sgarg]

As a corollary till Russia doesn't receive ship loads of dollar from high oil and gas prices T-50 will not be a reality.

T-50 is already a reality. High price of oil is not needed.
The more important issue is IF IAF is satisfied with what is on offer from Russians.
It is true that Indian money will go a long way in realizing PAK-FA. The question is IF MOD/IAF will spend this money. The answer is India will as there is no other viable option.

AMCA is only in concept stage. The most optimistic timeframe for first flight of AMCA is 7-8 years from today. It may take much longer in reality. A practical induction date for AMCA should be around 2027. I doubt IAF can wait that long with Chinese fifth generation designs looming on the horizon.

 

[ersakthivel]

As a corollary till Russia doesn't receive ship loads of dollar from high oil and gas prices T-50 will not be a reality.

6 prototypes are flying. And it will be inducted with critical aspects of development finished.

if there is a few years delay we can add a few more Su-30 MKi and tejas squadrons. Rafale is not the only choice, with us signing on the dotted line as expected by Dassault.

 

[Singh]

Do you know the RCS of Su-30mki? Also the availability of Su-30mki in Russia?

You can google it. But suffice it to say MKI's RCS and IR signature would be huge.

No MKIs in Russia .

 

[power_monger]

You can google it. But suffice it to say MKI's RCS and IR signature would be huge.

No MKIs in Russia .

I meant Su-30. Availability of Su-30mki is partially HAL problem and partially problem by IAF. After the new government came to power Su-30mki availbility has drastically increased by 10%. The target is to increase the availability percentage to 75% by year end. This availability problem could have easily solved with creation of spare bank and probably Performance Based Logistics" (PBL) which IAF rarely showed intrested in. Now that New DM is pushing things,we see huge improvement.

check this article. Govt takes note of Su-30MKI's poor 'serviceability' | Business Standard News

And what is the RCS of rafalle which you keep hyping around? No its RCS it not anyway near F-22 or F-35 to make it almost difficult to track by radars. A radar which can track Su-30mki can also easily track raffale also.

 

[Singh]

I meant Su-30. Availability of Su-30mki is partially HAL problem and partially problem by IAF. After the new government came to power Su-30mki availbility has drastically increased by 10%. The target is to increase the availability percentage to 75% by year end. This availability problem could have easily solved with creation of spare bank and probably Performance Based Logistics" (PBL) which IAF rarely showed intrested in. Now that New DM is pushing things,we see huge improvement.

check this article. Govt takes note of Su-30MKI's poor 'serviceability' | Business Standard News

Already discussed in previous post. Sukhoi's availability is at the moment as you yourself admit shyt. Whether it improves remains to be seen.

And what is the RCS of rafalle which you keep hyping around? No its RCS it not anyway near F-22 or F-35 to make it almost difficult to track by radars. A radar which can track Su-30mki can also easily track raffale also.

A radar which can track Sukhoi 30 MKI can also track Rafale but at what distance ?

 

[sgarg]

You can google it. But suffice it to say MKI's RCS and IR signature would be huge.

No MKIs in Russia .

Su-30 may have frontal RCS of 10 sq m, and Su-35 may have frontal RCS of 2-3 sq m. India may have applied radar absorbent paint to reduce RCS but safe to assume that it is still more than 5 sq m.
However Su-30 has very powerful radar and it will detect enemy fighter at standoff range and will get the first kill opportunity.

RuAF has Su-30s. Su-30 concept was initiated by IAF and it has caught on. Su-30 is proof of a very successful collaboration between India and Russia.

 

[Singh]

6 prototypes are flying. And it will be inducted with critical aspects of development finished.

if there is a few years delay we can add a few more Su-30 MKi and tejas squadrons. Rafale is not the only choice, with us signing on the dotted line as expected by Dassault.

I didn't know you were a reckless gambler :

India should go with PAK-FA whose troubles you know very well and which you admit "can" be delayed, abandon Rafale and to make up for the shortages in the interim go with Tejas whose shortcomings forced IAF to continue with Mig21s and also with MKI the hangar queen a?

 

[Singh]

T-50 is already a reality. High price of oil is not needed.
The more important issue is IF IAF is satisfied with what is on offer from Russians.
It is true that Indian money will go a long way in realizing PAK-FA. The question is IF MOD/IAF will spend this money. The answer is India will as there is no other viable option.

AMCA is only in concept stage. The most optimistic timeframe for first flight of AMCA is 7-8 years from today. It may take much longer in reality. A practical induction date for AMCA should be around 2027. I doubt IAF can wait that long with Chinese fifth generation designs looming on the horizon.

You are much more reasonable.

The other member is arguing that why go for Rafales at all when FGFA is coming in the next 3-5 years.

 

[ersakthivel]

Already discussed in previous post. Sukhoi's availability is at the moment as you yourself admit shyt. Whether it improves remains to be seen.



A radar which can track Sukhoi 30 MKI can also track Rafale but at what distance ?

The radar detection range doubles if the RCS increases four fold, calculate yourself.

With clean config of 0.1 RCS for rafale weapons will add close to 5 or 6 sq meter RCS,

Su-30 MI has clean config RCS of 3 sq meter , I think, upgrade proposes to reduce it to 1 sq meter with ram coats, And HAl made su-30 MKis has a substantial part of composite skin to further reduce it.

So adding weapons it becomes close to 10 sq meter.

So you can expect a twenty five percent detection range reduction for rafale in loaded config.

In clean config the difference is substantial , that too only for X band fire control radar,.

For volume search AWACS radars the difference between clean config Rfales and clean config Su-30 Mkis too may not be more than 25 percent because higher band radars can defeat X band stealth.

critical thing is todays AWACS ASEA can detect a loaded rafale (a fighter sized target) around 400 kms. They may pick up su-30 mki loaded at ranges 20-30 percent hihger than that. What is the difference.

Same with fire control radars. today's ASEA fire control radars can pick up a 1 sq meter target at 100 Km distance. So a loaded rafale with 4 sq meter RCS is no big threat for them.

they may pick up Su-30 MKi earlier, but BVR missiles have only 120 Km range, so lower rafale RCS is no use in actual BVR combat . Will help rafale in evading return BVRs from enemy in clean config because enemy fire control radar cant pick it up in clean config at distances over 40 Km, the same advantage is there for tejas over Su-30 MKI, nothing special about it to command 20 billion dollar billing.

But bombing deep into tibet with 4 sq meter rafale , in an airspace controlled by dozens of chinese Awacs is fantasy in 2030.

Even PAk is buying a hand full of Awacs from SAAB and china. So advantages are not that much unless you are a VLO 5th gen.

Also there are claims by some Boeing officials that a new ASEA on one of their fighters can pick up even VLOs at 40 km , true or not, i dont know.

So with increasing ASEA tech while VLO can be a big advantage 4.5th gen low RCS is not that big at all times, especially if you strike deep into enemy airspace with 5 sq meter RCS, with huge external tanks and weapons.
http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4408

A UK test pilot declared that the maximum Air-to-air "tracking range" of CAPTOR radar is "significantly longer" than the 100 miles / 161km. (Source: AFM magazine 05/2004)

The same test pilot declared that with the help of Meteor AAM, the EF-2000 could attack the multiple aero-targets (up to 8 targets) as far as 200km away at the same time theoretically. (Source: RAF magazine 06/2004)

During the test, the CAPTOR radar showed the capability of tracking up to 20 air targets (F-4 and Mig-29) simultaneously 160~185 km away and then automatically identifying and prioritising them. (Source: EADS)

The RCS of the Mig-29 is about 5m2 class, so these informations may hint that CAPTOR radar now can "track" (not just detect) RCS = 5m2 class target 160~185 km away. According to the basic formula for the relationship between Target's RCS and Radar's effective detective / tracking range:

The maximally effective detective / tracking range of CAPTOR to F/A-22 (Minimal frontal RCS = 0.0001~0.0002m2 class) in head-to-head engagement should be 16~24 km / 11~15 km now theoretically.

According to the PDF at:
http://www.iee.org/oncomms/pn/radar/Roulston.pdf

I think that the figure in page 15 showed that the CAPTOR with AESA-upgrade's detective / tracking range is about 75% longer than the CAPTOR radar now.

So after 2012~2015, the maximally effective detective / tracking range of CAPTOR-AESA to F/A-22 (Frontal RCS = 0.0001~0.0002 m2 class) should be 28~42 km / 19~26 km theoretically.

SO low clean config RCS of rafale that too strictly from the front view, not average overall counts for little in reality, when even VLOs like f-22 can be picked up at 20 kms in future.

 

[Singh]

Su-30 may have frontal RCS of 10 sq m, and Su-35 may have frontal RCS of 2-3 sq m. India may have applied radar absorbent paint to reduce RCS but safe to assume that it is still more than 5 sq m.
However Su-30 has very powerful radar and it will detect enemy fighter at standoff range and will get the first kill opportunity.

RuAF has Su-30s. Su-30 concept was initiated by IAF and it has caught on. Su-30 is proof of a very successful collaboration between India and Russia.

PLAAF is going to operate Su35 besides Su30s and its own variants of the flankers.

Chinese pilots arrive in Russia for Su-35 training｜WantChinaTimes.com

==

 

[ersakthivel]

I didn't know you were a reckless gambler :

India should go with PAK-FA whose troubles you know very well and which you admit "can" be delayed, abandon Rafale and to make up for the shortages in the interim go with Tejas whose shortcomings forced IAF to continue with Mig21s and also with MKI the hangar queen a?

I never gamble. if FGFA is late we can have a squadron or two extra of Su-30 MKIs in combo with tejas to make up for the delay.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Adding more trouble stricken flankers won`t solve any problems ..

And Adding another variant of flanker will only increase problems by making logistic harder to maintain ..

Example from IAF > MIG-21FL,MIG-21 MONGOL, MIG-21 BIS, MIG-21 BISION << Logistic nightmare

==============

SU-30 is yesterday MIG-21 and if we are going for the same then we have learned nothing from MIG-21 aka flying coffins, We are merely repeating MIG-21 history ..

MIG-21 and SU-30MKI both had same problems that is their engine and Russian could not get a proper engine for their PAK-FA ( IAF Statement )

It is best to keep SU-30MKI in whatever number it is now and upgrade them intensively with western and Home based technology ..

Where as the bulk of IAF can be taken at shoulder of Tejas and AMCA ( Near future )

 

[ersakthivel]

PLAAF is going to operate Su35 besides Su30s and its own variants of the flankers.

Chinese pilots arrive in Russia for Su-35 training｜WantChinaTimes.com

==

The avionics Ew suit of Su-30 MKi is different from Su-35s .