Know Your 'Rafale'

[Singh]

The radar detection range doubles if the RCS increases four fold, calculate yourself.

With clean config of 0.1 RCS for rafale weapons will add close to 5 or 6 sq meter RCS,

Su-30 MI has clean config RCS of 3 sq meter , I think, upgrade proposes to reduce it to 1 sq meter with ram coats, And HAl made su-30 MKis has a substantial part of composite skin to further reduce it.

So adding weapons it becomes close to 10 sq meter.


So you can expect a twenty five percent detection range reduction for rafale in loaded config.

In clean config the difference is substantial , that too only for X band fire control radar,.

For volume search AWACS radars the difference between clean config Rfales and clean config Su-30 Mkis too may not be more than 25 percent because higher band radars can defeat X band stealth.

critical thing is todays AWACS ASEA can detect a loaded rafale (a fighter sized target) around 400 kms. They may pick up su-30 mki loaded at ranges 20-30 percent hihger than that. What is the difference.

Same with fire control radars. today's ASEA fire control radars can pick up a 1 sq meter target at 100 Km distance. So a loaded rafale with 4 sq meter RCS is no big threat for them.

they may pick up Su-30 MKi earlier, but BVR missiles have only 120 Km range, so lower rafale RCS is no use in actual BVR combat . Will help rafale in evading return BVRs from enemy in clean config because enemy fire control radar cant pick it up in clean config at distances over 40 Km, the same advantage is there for tejas over Su-30 MKI, nothing special about it to command 20 billion dollar billing.

But bombing deep into tibet with 4 sq meter rafale , in an airspace controlled by dozens of chinese Awacs is fantasy in 2030.

Even PAk is buying a hand full of Awacs from SAAB and china. So advantages are not that much unless you are a VLO 5th gen.

Also there are claims by some Boeing officials that a new ASEA on one of their fighters can pick up even VLOs at 40 km , true or not, i dont know.

So with increasing ASEA tech while VLO can be a big advantage 4.5th gen low RCS is not that big at all times, especially if you strike deep into enemy airspace with 5 sq meter RCS, with huge external tanks and weapons.

Wow you made the following points :

1. AESA AWACS fielded by PAF and PLAAF will be able to detect Rafale at 400kms and MKI at 500kms
2. Rafale RCS is 4-6 and MKI is just 10 or 1sqm in clean config)
3. Low RCS is of no use in BVR
4. Tejas and Rafale will serve the same purpose in IAF

I sure would like to smoke what you are smoking.

 

[pankaj nema]

We should now buy SU 35

Otherwise with just 36 Rafales we cannot take on J 20 and SU 35 of PLAAF

 

[ersakthivel]

Wow you made the following points :

1. AESA AWACS fielded by PAF and PLAAF will be able to detect Rafale at 400kms and MKI at 500kms

Sure if you load them to full for deep strikes in tibet they will be detected at that range.

Even in clean config their higher band volumetric search radars have no substansive difference in tracking rafale and sukhoi.

All RCS calculation is given for X band fire control radars.

if you have any doubts please give me the corrected range.

2. Rafale RCS is 4-6 and MKI is just 10 or 1sqm in clean config)

No. Rafale RCS-4-6 sq meters, Su-30 MKI upto 10 meters in fully loaded config needed for "deep strike into tibet"

Clean config frontal RCS of rafale is said to be 0.1 sq meter or so, no one knows, su-30 MKi is around to be 3 sq meter because it doesn't have as much ram coats, new super sukhoi upgrades plan to bring them to less than 1 sq meter all in clean config.

3. Low RCS is of no use in BVR

read the full post.

4. Tejas and Rafale will serve the same purpose in IAF

In having the advantage of low clean config RCS rafale and tejas has the same advantage in IAF over all other fighters.
With ASEA radars capable of detecting even VLOs in two digit Kms, this advantage will vanish in an decade.

I sure would like to smoke what you are smoking.

I dont smoke.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

SU-35 is just for China`s research and development, They will clone technology and implement on their own ..

SU-35 is not frontline fighter of PLAAF just like SU-30MKK, They don`t rely on imports ..

We should now buy SU 35

Otherwise with just 36 Rafales we cannot take on J 20 and SU 35 of PLAAF

 

[Kunal Biswas]

In that sense many in IAF and armed forces also smoking what @ersakthivel is ..

Wow you made the following points :

1. AESA AWACS fielded by PAF and PLAAF will be able to detect Rafale at 400kms and MKI at 500kms
2. Rafale RCS is 4-6 and MKI is just 10 or 1sqm in clean config)
3. Low RCS is of no use in BVR
4. Tejas and Rafale will serve the same purpose in IAF

I sure would like to smoke what you are smoking.

 

[ersakthivel]

We should now buy SU 35

Otherwise with just 36 Rafales we cannot take on J 20 and SU 35 of PLAAF

No need additional SU-30 MI itself is purely stop gap if FGFA fails to materialize in time.

why ?

because we have already invested all the money for Su-30 production and spares. duplicating it for Su-35 is waste. Same is the case for just 30 or 60 rafales.
Su-30 MKi right now is cheap because we ave spent decades of efforts and billions of dollars already with experienced pilots.

So if we again have to invest billions it should better be for VLOs like FGFA or AMCA.

Considering th scheme of things in IAF , unless Modi is going to be PM for the next fifteen years there will be no hope for AMCA, periodic ASR revision will lead it to a token induction like tejas.

Already Parrikar is asking IAf to tone down ASR for AMCA if it has to be completed with available tech in the country. We haven't seen the end of it all.

 

[pankaj nema]

SU-35 is just for China`s research and development, They will clone technology and implement on their own ..

SU-35 is not frontline fighter of PLAAF just like SU-30MKK, They don`t rely on imports ..

The simple question is HOW to take on PLAAF

especially with SU 35 ; J 20 ; J 10 ; J 11 and SU 30 MKK

 

[Singh]

In that sense many in IAF and armed forces also smoking what @ersakthivel is ..

That's why they went for Rafale, and suspended talks with Russia re: PAK-FA ?

 

[Singh]

No need additional SU-30 MI itself is purely stop gap if FGFA fails to materialize.

Fails to materialize in time or at all. Why go for MKI when Tejas is good enough ?

 

[pankaj nema]

IAF was planning A fleet with Rafale ; SU 30 mki and FGFA to take on PLAAF

Now Rafale has gone for a SIX ( To be precise 36 )

Now what do we have here JUST SU 30 MKI and FGFA in future

So either we get SU 35 or else ... PLAAF will get excited

 

[Rowdy]

IAF was planning A fleet with Rafale ; SU 30 mki and FGFA to take on PLAAF

Now Rafale has gone for a SIX ( To be precise 36 )

Now what do we have here JUST SU 30 MKI and FGFA in future

So either we get SU 35 or else ... PLAAF will get excited

Can we not do a G2G deal for more Rafael with Tech Transfer.?

 

[pankaj nema]

Fails to materialize in time or at all. Why go for MKI when Tejas is good enough ?

Tejas Mk 1 is good only for Pakis And that too in plains

In high mountains we need a more powerful plane like Tejas MK 2

 

[ersakthivel]

That's why they went for Rafale, and suspended talks with Russia re: PAK-FA ?

IAF Airmarshal Retd ManMohan bahadur involved in MMRCA evaluations, has stated in his , "rafale fable " article ,that with similar external loads rafale has three times the range of Su-30 MKi,
in another one of his rebuttal article for bharath karnard , he has said that Rafale has three times the range of tejas.

Simply both can not be true, even KG maths reveal that su-30 MKI and tejas can not have the same range,

In fact both the statements are false.

No one asked him what he smoked.Did you?

And another gent matheswaran howled in vayu stratpost fart fest that tejas program should be scrapped. many IAf worthies and a defence jour"analist" echoed him.

Group captain Suneeth krishna who had close to 400 hours on IAf Mirage-2000 and chief award winning test pilot of tejas has categorically said that in its present configuration,"tejas mk1 itself is equal or better than the 45 million dollar per plane upgraded mirage-2000, and can stand on its own in any theater of war.".

Ace IAF pilot late NTSE chief pervez KHokar has said that ,"Instead of waiting for tejas mk2 , IAF can induct tejas mk1 in hundreds as it is better than mirage-2000 in key respects", a full four years before in 2011 itself.


present IAf chief raha has categorically declared that "there is no doubt in tejas's fighting capability in IAF."

So which IAf you want to believe.

 

[pankaj nema]

Can we not do a G2G deal for more Rafael with Tech Transfer.?

We can but the problem is PRICE

The French have raised the price too high

Either we get SU 35 or try AGAIN for F 18 Super hornets

 

[ersakthivel]

Tejas Mk 1 is good only for Pakis And that too in plains

In high mountains we need a more powerful plane like Tejas MK 2

tejas mk1 cleared cold weather leh trials where 4 of the 6 MMRCA 20 billion dollar birds failed.

if tejas was fit for plains why so much effort was put into leh trial/

All tejas details are in tejas thread. Dont bring it on here.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

General procedure for meeting aggressive foe >>

1 > Early warning ( AESA early warning Radars and AWACS )
2 > C4I communication ( Location and response of command center both Army and IAF )
3 > SAM / AAA network ( Akash and SA-6 combo with upgraded L70 with thermal sights over mountain terrain )
4 > Strong Fighter Interceptor ( Tejas MK1 with MKI )

network ( Akash and SA-6 with BMD ) and strong fighter interceptors ( MKI and Tejas ) ..

The simple question is HOW to take on PLAAF

especially with SU 35 ; J 20 ; J 10 ; J 11 and SU 30 MKK

=================
@ersakthivel, Answer it all ...

If you want links its all in Tejas thread ..

tejas mk1 cleared cold weather leh trials where 4 of the 6 MMRCA 20 billion dollar birds failed.

if tejas was fit for plains why so much effort was put into leh trial/

All tejas details are in tejas thread. Dont bring it on here.

IAF Airmarshal Retd ManMohan bahadur involved in MMRCA evaluations, has stated in his , "rafale fable " article ,that with similar external loads rafale has three times the range of Su-30 MKi,
in another one of his rebuttal article for bharath karnard , he has said that Rafale has three times the range of tejas.

Simply both can not be true, even KG maths reveal that su-30 MKI and tejas can not have the same range,

In fact both the statements are false.

No one asked him what he smoked.Did you?

And another gent matheswaran howled in vayu stratpost fart fest that tejas program should be scrapped. many IAf worthies and a defence jour"analist" echoed him.

That's why they went for Rafale, and suspended talks with Russia re: PAK-FA ?

Fails to materialize in time or at all. Why go for MKI when Tejas is good enough ?

================

For internet warriors perhaps ..

So either we get SU 35 or else ... PLAAF will get excited

 

[Singh]

IAF Airmarshal Retd manMohan bahadur has stated in his , "rafale fable " article that with similar external loads rafale has three times the range of Su-30 MKi,
in another one of his rebuttal article for bharath karnard , he has said that Rafale has three times the range of tejas.

Simply both can not be true, even KG maths reveal that su-30 MKI and tejas can not have the same range,
, no one asked him what he smoked.Did you?

In any case your point of argument was that Rafale despite its low RCS brings nothing to the table. Tejas with its low price is perhaps superior to Rafale.

 

[pankaj nema]

tejas mk1 cleared cold weather leh trials where 4 of the 6 MMRCA 20 billion dollar birds failed.

if tejas was fit for plains why so much effort was put into leh trial/

All tejas details are in tejas thread. Dont bring it on here.

Tejas MK 1 is taking just too much time

Nothing is known about Cobham radome

FOC is in December ; I strongly believe that IAF will deploy Tejas in plains

AND that will FREE Up the MIG 29 That can be deployed in J And K to fight in the mountains
like in Kargil war

 

[ersakthivel]

IAF was planning A fleet with Rafale ; SU 30 mki and FGFA to take on PLAAF

Now Rafale has gone for a SIX ( To be precise 36 )

Now what do we have here JUST SU 30 MKI and FGFA in future

So either we get SU 35 or else ... PLAAF will get excited

In fact PLAF would have got excited if we went in for 20 billion dollar , just 6 rafale squadrons. It would have meant IAf would be saddled with older fighters in other 36 squadrons.

because spending 20 billion dollar on tejas mk1 and mk2 will lead to IAF building ,"great wall of IAF over Himalayan range with close to 24 brand new low clean config RCS 4.5 the gen fighters which could make a mince meat of any invading PLAf force with AWACS, Astra, Aksah help.

in air war the moment any invading fighter bomber gets fired on it has to drop its strike package like bombs and heavy fuel tanks to even think about evasive actions, So practically their strike mission is over once a patrolling tejas fires a single astra on it.

In enemy airspace no PLAF sukhoi will dare to chase tejas supported by on the ground akash batteries and Awacs like they do in the Bond movies.

So all those cobras and few degrees advantage in ITR and STR are just pure BS in BVR, where a decent radar area and low clean config RCS with high enough ITR for cranking away from enemy BVR is what needed.

n this respect tejas is on par with rafales. both have low clean config RCS , and low wing loading high ITR designs.

So having so many tejas (24 squadrons opposite to just 6 rafale for the same price)over himalays makes the position of IA very strong with no threat of invading PLAF.

now since we have realized our folly and decided to get max bang for our buck , they will worry about it.

All these rafales or nothing is just hoodwinking the lay public citing bogus china threat, which needs high in number decent 4.5th gen tejas like plans to counter.

We are not going to fly around Mali and Libiya looking for Qadhafi hiding in a roadside culvert.

We will have to face the combined onslaught of close to 1500 PLAF-PAF fkleet which are all close to tejas level tech in enemy airspace. nothing more.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

@Singh Ji, You must understand how military operation works not by some arm merchant`s words .. ?

You do not need a bomb truck to take out a bridge or a railway junction, Rafale itself proved this in libya and other conflict then why go for something big and expensive when the same is done by a much cheaper platform with lot lesser maintenance and operational cost at similar technological level ..

Besides this, Tejas are made in India and design by IAF for IAF requirement then why this cry about a foreign fighter ??

In any case your point of argument was that Rafale despite its low RCS brings nothing to the table. Tejas with its low price is perhaps superior to Rafale.

=========

So that MIG-29 can be shot like flies out of Air over mountains ?

AND that will FREE Up the MIG 29 That can be deployed in J And K to fight in the mountains like in Kargil war [/B]