Know Your 'Rafale'

[sgarg]

I didn't know you were a reckless gambler :

India should go with PAK-FA whose troubles you know very well and which you admit "can" be delayed, abandon Rafale and to make up for the shortages in the interim go with Tejas whose shortcomings forced IAF to continue with Mig21s and also with MKI the hangar queen a?

My view is that Su-30 will prevail over all existing PAF fighters. My view is that LCA Tejas is a better fighter compared to JF-17, and barring the latest F16, all other PAF fighters are less than LCA Tejas.

The Western front is protected by Su-30 and Mig-29 today. These fighters have been keeping the peace successfully.

I believe that the logic behind induction of PAK-FA/FGFA is sound. This plane should be inducted. It is an aircraft with long legs, about what you want, an aircraft that can stay in the air around 4 hours on CAP duty.

Mig-21 is completely obsolete today. Mig-27 and Jaguar will need escorts from Mig-29, LCA etc. for completing missions.

Rafale is definitely a good fighter, and will increase options for strategic strikes.

 

[ersakthivel]

Tejas MK 1 is taking just too much time

Nothing is known about Cobham radome

FOC is in December ; I strongly believe that IAF will deploy Tejas in plains

AND that will FREE Up the MIG 29 That can be deployed in J And K to fight in the mountains
like in Kargil war

AFAIK knoe tejas flies in the air not runs on soft tyres in highways, so nothing stops it from being deployed in Himallayas.

No super duper tech is involved in cobham radome. it will come.

 

[pankaj nema]

Something is cooking in MOD

Source : Rafale: India might add only one or two additional squadrons | idrw.org

while it is still not clear How MOD and Parrikar plan to fill out falling numbers of squadron level in Indian Air force , but Parrikar and MOD are working one something which will be ready in next one month said same sources.

In past Parrikar had advocated the purchase of additional upgraded sukhoi-30MKI from Russia and Sources also inform that IAF and MOD along with HAL are working on possible additional orders for Tejas MK-1 jets but with some improvements. Clarity will come in next few weeks.

 

[ersakthivel]

In any case your point of argument was that Rafale despite its low RCS brings nothing to the table. Tejas with its low price is perhaps superior to Rafale.

In all cases 20 billion dollar can not be justified for low clean config RCS of rafale which is there in tejas too is my argument.

ofcourse in air defence backed by AWACS, Akash batteries , we can put close to 24 tejas squadron compared to 8 rafale squadrons, with three times the number of EW suits, radars and twice the number of air to air missiles ,

IA can get enviable protection from cruise missiles with such huge squadron strength.

So why the fuss?

And you can add a dedicated EW enbled tejas to every four fighter of tejas squadron for the same cost, it will give huge advantage for tejas fleet in air defence, which will be critical in indo-china war.

Also tell me which has the larger radome size, tejas or rafale?

 

[pankaj nema]

=========

So that MIG-29 can be shot like flies out of Air over mountains ?

Sir Do you mean to say that Tejas is BETTER than MiG 29

 

[SajeevJino]

You do not need a bomb truck to take out a bridge or a railway junction, Rafale itself proved this in libya and other conflict then why go for something big and expensive when the same is done by a much cheaper platform with lot lesser maintenance and operational cost at similar technological level ..

Sir I think we need it , If we were attacking the Bakistani positions we need a Bomb truck,

They learned the Lesson of dropping Massive amount of bombs in Kargil,

 

[ersakthivel]

Something is cooking in MOD

Source : Rafale: India might add only one or two additional squadrons | idrw.org

while it is still not clear How MOD and Parrikar plan to fill out falling numbers of squadron level in Indian Air force , but Parrikar and MOD are working one something which will be ready in next one month said same sources.

In past Parrikar had advocated the purchase of additional upgraded sukhoi-30MKI from Russia and Sources also inform that IAF and MOD along with HAL are working on possible additional orders for Tejas MK-1 jets but with some improvements. Clarity will come in next few weeks.

It is clear to every one. over 4 years of negotiations , the differences are irrevocable.

And GOI can not just buy 200 rafales off the shelf, so the compromise was made to order 36 rafales and stop the MMRCA.

 

[ersakthivel]

Sir I think we need it , If we were attacking the Bakistani positions we need a Bomb truck,

They learned the Lesson of dropping Massive amount of bombs in Kargil,

All bomb trucks can be detected by ground radars, Sweeden supplies AWACS to PAF.

in kargil PAF did not even have BVR facility. Now even JF-17 has BVR facility. We need numbers, to protect our skies and IA positions first , cruise missiles can do the attacking role.

And if you can have 24 tejas squadrons in place of 8 rafale sqadrons think about the enormous flexibility it provides in both bomb truck roles and air to air roles, with AWACS, Su-30 MKI support .

 

[pankaj nema]

We will have to face the combined onslaught of close to 1500 PLAF-PAF fkleet which are all close to tejas level tech in enemy airspace. nothing more.

What you are saying is true for Tejas MK 2 which is far away and NOT for MK 1

Otherwise we would NOT have gone for UPGRADATION of MiG 29 and Mirage 2000

And also we are adding up SU 30 squadrons in a determined manner

 

[ersakthivel]

Sir Do you mean to say that Tejas is BETTER than MiG 29

In high altitude it is the low wing loading fighters like tejas, mirage which has the advantage, In sea level high wing loading fighters like F-16, mig-29 has the advantage.

because the lift produced by low area wing is never enough to be agile in high altitude.

 

[ersakthivel]

What you are saying is true for Tejas MK 2 which is far away and NOT for MK 1

Otherwise we would NOT have gone for UPGRADATION of MiG 29 and Mirage 2000

And also we are adding up SU 30 squadrons in a determined manner

i am talking about mk1 only, not mk2.

Mk2 is basically IN requirement for carrier operation with meaningful load.

All platforms are upgraded because it increases their potential.

Since we have su-30 MKi, should we stop upgrading mirage-2000?

 

[pankaj nema]

In high altitude it is the low wing loading fighters like tejas, mirage which has the advantage, In sea level high wing loading fighters like F-16, mig-29 has the advantage.

because the lift produced by low area wing is never enough to be agile in high altitude.

But if you recall in Kargil it was the MIG 29 doing escort duty for the Mirage 2000

And IAF MIG 29 had locked on to PAF F 16

All this happened opposite Skardu

 

[SajeevJino]

All bomb trucks can be detected by ground radars, Sweeden supplies AWACS to PAF.

Rafale comes with Load of Ground Munitions as well as Air to Air missiles, that's what they called omni role, the PAF F 16 can't work with AEWCS,

in kargil PAF did not even have BVR facility. Now even JF-17 has BVR facility. We need numbers, to protect our skies and IA positions first , cruise missiles can do the attacking role.

we need quality, during Lebanon war Jews killed almost all Leb fighters without losing theirs, who wins there Quality and Training, The Barak NG and upcoming Maitri have the ablity of Missile defence too, so Internal Air defence can be easily achieved

Cruise Missile, would you send a Cruise missile to destroy some 100+ borders posts and Bakistani positions,

And if you can have 24 tejas squadrons in place of 8 rafale sqadrons think about the enormous flexibility it provides in both bomb truck roles and air to air roles, with AWACS, Su-30 MKI support .

so think about 24 regiment of Barak 8 in India can save our Land from Baki fighters

 

[ersakthivel]

But if you recall in Kargil it was the MIG 29 doing escort duty for the Mirage 2000

And IAF MIG 29 had locked on to PAF F 16

All this happened opposite Skardu

But it was the mirage that bombed and if it had interface and the availability to fire meteor it too would have locked on to PAF F-16.

mig-29 is a great out and out interceptor, but tejas and mirage are multi role , and tejas was made as per IAf demands. A few shortfalls from many times revised parameters can not take everything away from tejas.

 

[ersakthivel]

Rafale comes with Load of Ground Munitions as well as Air to Air missiles, that's what they called omni role, the PAF F 16 can't work with AEWCS,

omni role and multi role are the same. And for the price w can have more than one rafale load on four tejas in our immediate border area on the first day of war.. no doubt, in

we need quality, during Lebanon war Jews killed almost all Leb fighters without losing theirs, who wins there Quality and Training, The Barak NG and upcoming Maitri have the ablity of Missile defence too, so Internal Air defence can be easily achieved

primary air defence for india is now akash, not barak, which is for ships and maitri also for navy only, which you fail to realize.

And air cover from fighters is always the first requirement, and air to air missiles are second line of defence.

tejas has a bigger radome dia to mount a more powerful radar than the one available for rafale, Also no one bars IAf from buying meteor and fit it on tejas with whatever radar they want from international markets. So quality is available on tejas too as far as BVR is concerned. Infact IAf's radar demand for bigger radar on tejas was followed by ADA.

Cruise Missile, would you send a Cruise missile to destroy some 100+ borders posts and Bakistani positions,

All border posts are on the border only. tejas can more than take it down.

We dont need rafale range in immediate border area , we are not russia or US or france to fly 1000s of Kms to find the enemy.

so think about 24 regiment of Barak 8 in India can save our Land from Baki fighters

Well, barak and akash or last mile measures. it is to crude to entirely rely on them for IA protection.

First requirement for winning the war is air superiority.

For that the first need is enough 4.5th gen fighters in numbers over your head , with big enough radar and long enough BVr missiles.

 

[Khagesh]

Voice channels is all any side will need from their AEWCs, in the India Pak context.

 

[SajeevJino]

Well, barak and akash or last mile measures. it is to crude to entirely rely on them for IA protection.

First requirement for winning the war is air superiority.

For that the first need is enough 4.5th gen fighters in numbers over your head , with big enough radar and long enough BVr missiles.

A phalcon AEWCS with squadron of Su 30 MKI armed with BVR Missiles running CAP mission, would mean a Serious pose against any kind of Flying wings around some 400 km Radius


see here the term is entirely different, you are talking about Homeland Security, I'm talking about Attacking and controlling Enemy Territory

 

[pankaj nema]

@ersakthivel

please answer a SIMPLE question

WHICH plane in IAF will take on J 20 and SU 35 of PLAAF

That is all I want to know

 

[Singh]

In all cases 20 billion dollar can not be justified for low clean config RCS of rafale which is there in tejas too is my argument.

ofcourse in air defence backed by AWACS, Akash batteries , we can put close to 24 tejas squadron compared to 8 rafale squadrons, with three times the number of EW suits, radars and twice the number of air to air missiles ,

IA can get enviable protection from cruise missiles with such huge squadron strength.

So why the fuss?

And you can add a dedicated EW enbled tejas to every four fighter of tejas squadron for the same cost, it will give huge advantage for tejas fleet in air defence, which will be critical in indo-china war.

Also tell me which has the larger radome size, tejas or rafale?

Please refer to what RM Parrikar said also to @Kunal Biswas sir

" A replacement (for the MiG-21) could be the LCA Tejas or another – I'll not call it low end – but a single engine lighter aircraft. Tejas is a good aircraft but it has its limitations."

" From the open sources, it is seen that the contemporary aircraft of LCA developed in other countries are JAS-39 by Sweden, FA-50 by South Korea and JF-17 by Pakistan/China. The engines installed in these aircraft (except that of JF-17) are GE-404 series engines. LCA parameters, such as empty weight, all up weight (except that of JAS-39), thrust, speed (except that of JAS-39) are better than those of the other aircrafts (sic). Similarly, development/unit cost of LCA are less than those of JAS-39 and FA-50 but more than that of JF-17. However, LCA's Ferry Range is less than those of other aircrafts (sic)."

India could look at LCA-alternate to replace MiG-21 | StratPost

 

[sgarg]

@ersakthivel

please answer a SIMPLE question

WHICH plane in IAF will take on J 20 and SU 35 of PLAAF

That is all I want to know

It will be Su-30 and PAK-FA. The Rafale may be reserved for strategic strike role like Mirage.

I think it is clear from your question itself that PAK-FA/FGFA is needed.