Know Your 'Rafale'

Kunal Biswas

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That`s make sense, Tejas combat range is upto 500kms compare to MIG-21`s 290-300kms, Cruising range is more than 1000kms without fuel tanks ..


Thats not Manohar sir's word .I think I read same phrase in IDRW articles cud not it track now.
 

nrj

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Fixed cost is dependent on fixed number
Good and reasonable inventory of spares.

And i thought you were referring to Manufacturing and not the overall cost.

Even then 50-60 aircrafts is a good number to have an economical maintenance.

Production is all together a different prospect.
You have to consider overall cost & TCO in case of dozens of multi-role fighters, unless they are for exhibition purpose.
 

Kharavela

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Costly $20 bn Rafale deal hits dead end, Parrikar says LCA to replace MiG 21s

New Delhi: India today said all future negotiations for purchase of French Rafale fighters would be through government to government route, discarding direct talks with manufacturers.
Dassault Rafale had won the MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) competition for 126 fighter jets in 2012. AFP

The disclosure by Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar came two days after Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced purchase of 36 Rafale fighter aircraft in fly-away condition from the French government directly, sidestepping gruelling three-year negotiations for Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA)
tender.

Modi announced purchase of 36 Rafale fighter aircraft in fly-away condition from the French government
directly, sidestepping a gruelling three-year negotiations for the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender.

While initially the tender was valued at about $10 billion for 126 aircraft, the current price is estimated to be over $20 billion, over which India had serious reservations.

Noting that negotiations had entered into a "loop" or a "vortex" with no solution in sight, Parrikar said direct negotiations with France will now decide how much more Rafale aircraft has to be bought and whether it will be under 'Make in India' programme.

The minister refrained from giving a direct reply to questions whether the requirement of Air Force for more MMRCA will be through Rafale or if any other player can come into action.

"Scope was only possible in government to government deal. Instead of going through the Request for Proposal (RFP) route where there was lot of confusion and chaos, it was decided that we will go through the G2G route," he said explaining that 36 Rafale jets would be procured in ready-to-fly condition.

He said what has to be done about the rest would be decided after discussions between the two governments.

Asked what will happen to 'Make in India' initiative, Parrikar said, it would be decided after proper discussions.

He said, he won't be able to give more details as the "fine print of what has been agreed in not with me".

Underlining that it was his personal opinion, Parrikar said in certain strategic areas like defence, government-to-government (G2G) route was better.

"Whenever you have complex platform to be acquired, government routes are normally better routes," he said giving the example of DTTI between India and US.

He refused to give a timeline for the delivery of 36 Rafale jets saying, at the prime minister's level, the nitty-gritty of a deal is not worked out.

"You agree with the principle. The principle has been agreed. Now the two sides will sit together and will work out all the details," he said.

Asked if India can go beyond 126 Rafale jets, Parrikar said, 126 was itself a "financially a steep slope to climb".

He said that everything will depend on discussions.

"That (Make in India) will depend on how we negotiate. What is the total quantum (of order). We may not go for full 126. That will be decided after we discuss at government to government level," the minister said.

Asked if this means the MMRCA tender has been scrapped or will die a natural death, the minister pointed out that he has neither said it will die nor that it was scrapped.

"But I can say that it has gone into a loop or vortex. That is why this route had to be taken to break the vortex... now if you start the process once again, by the time you complete it, it will take five years. Day by day, it was becoming more stiff," Parrikar said.

He said the G2G route was taken to break the ice.

Talking about the operational requirement of the Indian Air Force, which currently has 34 Squadrons, Parrikar said LCA would be replacing the ageing MiG 21s, whose life has been extended by another eight years or so.

He underlined that Indian now has better missile technology now than the time when the ideal squadron strength for IAF was registered at 42.

Parriker termed it as "strange", the decision of the previous government to designate only HAL as the partner under the tender.

He said the main problem was the man power ration proposed by HAL which was 2.7, which was "very high" in terms of cost.

Asked from where he will get the money, he said, management of resources was known to him as he had the
experience of running a "state government without money when the mining ban was on".
 

mayfair

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So my take on this is

1. India has so far ONLY OFFERED to outright buy 36 Rafales in a G2G deal, the terms are right. See this statement from the Raksha Mantri
"We have NOT purchased 36 aircraft, what happens when a PM and President talk is that there is in principle approval."
Do recall that after this, Hollande met with Dassault president, probably to work out terms.

2. MRCA is scrapped, which means RFP terms no longer apply and if French do not come up with a suitable option, Eurofighter can sneak in provided they are willing to provide attractive terms

3. When PM and RM get back, I bet that the MoD babus and their air chiefs, HAL et all will get a very private and a very thorough dressing down. IAF will mostly likely be told. You got your birds, you'll get more MKIs, FGFA when it comes on line, but you WILL accept LCA in large numbers- no two ways about it. No more "MRCAs" for IAF till they fully embrace Tejas. Also a warning for HAL to get their act together- "LCA or a similar single engine aircraft"

4. This saga has been a Clusterf**k of epic proportions. Hopefully, no more and never again.
 

aschauhan

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How do these compare against J-10s, J-20s, J-31s and J-11s that China is inducting into it's airforce ?
 

uoftotaku

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Many strategically important things happening together. On one hand, the GoI seems to have finally lost patience with babudom and decided to take a political risk which is refreshing after 10 years lungii raj. Secondly, as PM is touring the West and signing partnerships, our "old friends" the Russians have stabbed us in the back by selling the deadly S-400 air defense system to the Chinese as confirmed today. Couple this with the all but signed deal for SU-35, advanced radar systems along with long before done deals to ensure that Chinese are always 1 step ahead of us and you see their game...they sell advanced weapons to them and then come up with some new scam to sell us something to counter. S-400 completely undermines and puts doubt on FGFA purchase also as the system is tailor made for anti-stealth usage! Notice also how just as we launched Kolkata-class the Chinese suddenly came up with a not so subtle copy of the BrahMos, how when we acquired INS Chakra they suddenly launched 3 SSN's with VLS systems. Numerous instances of such duplicity can be found if one looks. It is time to shake off the Nehruvian Cold War legacy and jettison our reliance on opportunistic snakes. Yes the Western countries like France are also ultimately after money but at least they do not indulge in double dealing...after a brief flirtation with Pakistan and China in the late 1970's they have firmly turned to India as they saw that no good can come with getting in bed with snakes.
 

sgarg

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Posters on this forum revisit my posts from October 2014 when I predicted what is happening today.

BTW I agree with Dassault that HAL is incapable of building Rafales. The fact is HAL really struggled in building MKI, a fighter that should have been within HAL's capability. HAL has SIMPLY NOT KEPT PACE WITH DEVELOPMENT OF AVIATION TECHNOLOGY. It is a laggard company sustained ONLY WITH GOVT MONEY.

HAL MUST focus on its own product line. The GOI has given a big gift to HAL in the shape of LCA Tejas. This is where HAL should display urgency. HAL should be weaned away from screw-driver projects.
 
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uoftotaku

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Via Defense Aerospace: (bold sections my own words)

India to Sign Rafale Contract By June

PARIS --- French Defense Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian is to shortly travel to India to iron out the details of the direct sale of 36 Rafale fighters for the Indian Air Force, with a view to signing the contract during the Paris air show in mid-June.

Negotiations will continue in parallel for the local production of at least 108 Rafale in India, although it can no longer be assumed that state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) will be automatically involved [wait and see, in any case, not under MMRCA]. Dassault had originally planned to team with India's privately-owned Reliance group and, in the wake of the April 10 announcement of a direct purchase, HAL officials made remarkably (or expectedly) lackadaisical statements to Indian media:
"We did not initiate any concrete step at the HAL for manufacturing the planes here", one HAL official told the India Tribune, adding that "After all, there was never much clarity on whether the deal with Rafale would be finally signed." The official also revealed that HAL had done remarkably little to prepare for Rafale production: "There was never any question of acquiring land or bring together a team for MMRCA", he said. No doubt should remain in anyone's mind that these jokers should be tarred and feathered in the streets! Such a shocking attitude when the entire world sees your complete failure and despite being slapped in the face! Anyone still wonder why Dassault did not want to deal with these morons?

Given that Egypt, which has just ordered 24 Rafales, and India are both in a hurry to receive their aircraft, France will turn over to them its next 49 delivery slots, and will resume its own deliveries after 2019. Dassault currently builds Rafales at a rate of 11 a year, and needs about three years to double it. Validates my earlier views that there will be no quick fix solution! Production ramp up takes a long time as supply chain has to be mobilized first

Indian Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar told reporters in New Delhi on Saturday that "It may take two to two-and-a-half years to get the first plane"¦"¦Fly-away means not tomorrow, it has to be designed as per India's need, plus there is a requirement of working out the price" which he also said would be about 4 billion euros.

As we noted on Friday, a direct purchase will resolve most of the bottlenecks that have blocked the MMRCA contract negotiations over the past three years, and which mostly focus on the price of the 108 Indian-made aircraft and on who would provide their contractual warranty. The fundamental problem, however, is that by codifying and closely regulating as many aspects of defense procurement as it could, India's previous government created a web of red tape so complex and so arcane that mutually-acceptable defense deals have become virtually impossible.

Another – and so far unsaid - factor is that HAL's work-force is not yet capable of assembling aircraft as advanced as Rafale, and the Indian government appears to have realized that it was insisting on an expensive and time-consuming industrial fantasy that it would probably be unable to implement in the short term. Finally, a direct purchase would elegantly sidestep thorny coproduction issues, give India fixed, firm prices guaranteed by the French government, and relieve the current pressure to conclude a license production agreement that suits neither side.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...e-by-june.html
 
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tarunraju

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We don't exactly have Tejas on tap. Any fleet composition decisions we take that involve a large number of Tejas compensating for something, should be taking engine supply into account. We can't dream of 3-figure Tejas fleet without those many American engines (which they should be willing to sell). Kaveri is still in limbo.
 

sgarg

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@tarunraju, I doubt engine to be the problem in Tejas production. Did GE refuse to supply the engines?

There is some other problem with HAL. This problem could be slow ramp up that may be partially intentional. HAL loves licensed manufacturing. This allows HAL to hide its deficiencies. Programs like IJT and Tejas show HAL in poor light.
 
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uoftotaku

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We don't exactly have Tejas on tap. Any fleet composition decisions we take that involve a large number of Tejas compensating for something, should be taking engine supply into account. We can't dream of 3-figure Tejas fleet without those many American engines (which they should be willing to sell). Kaveri is still in limbo.
Kaveri program is dead officially. Tejas will only be powered by GE F404/414 engines which BTW have ALL been already delivered and are currently sitting in a HAL warehouse so there is no question of aircraft deliveries being delayed due to the engines. The problems are with HAL and HAL alone!

The Tejas Mk.1 has been thoroughly rubbished by the IAF who have categorically stated it is not fit for combat. BUT it remains a fact that HAL is obliged to produce 40 odd airframes to fulfill placed orders. On current plan, it will only complete this order by 2020! Why? Because it has to somehow stretch out its production line till the Mk.2 enters production...which given that the Mk.2 remains little more than a design concept today is a FAR FAR away prospect! They themselves do not know when the Mk.2 can be ready so they will try to milk the Mk.1 as long as possible. The Tejas line produces a cutting edge high tech aircraft with manual techniques...all of the CFRP body panels are laid BY HAND as HAL has not bothered to invest in the machinery required to do these tasks. This protects the rice bowl of its thousands of employees, gives it an excuse to slow down the production and more excuses to poor quality ( Tejas has had endless troubles for years with CFRP de-lamination )

As evidence of HAL's malpractice...SAAB will have signed a co-operative production agreement, finalized the design, built a production line in Brazil, trained its workforce, started production, completed full flight evaluation and operational clearance, started production and completed deliveries to 2 countries (Brazil and Switzerland) for the Gripen-E in the SAME timeframe that HAL has "planned" for IOC, FOC and hand over of ONE "operational" squadron of Tejas Mk.1 to the IAF...forget about the Mk.2 which isn't even on the horizon right now. Notice that GE has received the order and COMPLETED delivery of the F414IN-56 engine meant for the Mk.2 almost 10 years before the aircraft itself will ever fly....such is the state of our babu-empire
 

mayfair

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The Tejas Mk.1 has been thoroughly rubbished by the IAF who have categorically stated it is not fit for combat.
That's only partly true. LCA MK1 has design issues and all, but IAF's reluctance and dismissive attitude towards LCA is in large part due to the well entrenched "import lobby" both within IAF and MoD. Senior officials both in IAF and MoD are on record saying that the seeming imperfect Tejas is still better than many planes in the IAF fleet. Thus, it would make sense to replace these with LCA.

It should be pointed out that Indian Navy is fully appreciative and supportive of HAL efforts on N-LCA. Why? Because IN is better committed to indigenisation than IAF.

I do not absolve HAL of its shortcomings and criminal neglect in this matter, but IAF has done itself no favours by hanging specifications on a whim and taking a stance that Tejas is junk regardless of what happens. HAL on the other hand was lackadaisical and lacked sufficient innovation and was happy mastering the "screwdriver tech" instead of striving for innovation.

These two need a box on the ears and a stick up the arse to get going in the right direction.
 

Pulkit

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You have to consider overall cost & TCO in case of dozens of multi-role fighters, unless they are for exhibition purpose.
I had responded considering that only.
I thot U were focus only on Manufacturing....

In this case 50-60 aircrafts is a good number to have an economical maintenance as I said above and due to GTG and no TOT the cost is gonna be quite low.
 

Pulkit

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That`s make sense, Tejas combat range is upto 500kms compare to MIG-21`s 290-300kms, Cruising range is more than 1000kms without fuel tanks ..
When will be second Tejas Handed over to IAF?
 

From Realm of D&T

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The BJP-led NDA government has virtually terminated the 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contract worth $20 billion initiated by the UPA government. Though on Friday Prime Minister Narendra Modi made an announcement in Paris on buying 36 Rafale jets in ready-to-fly condition, on Monday, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar put to rest all speculation on the fate of the 126 MMRCA contract.

While interacting with select media representatives in his office in South Block, Parrikar said, "A car cannot run on two paths simultaneously." "Scope was only possible in government-to-government deal. Negotiations had 'gone into a loop with no solution in sight'. Instead of going through the RFP route, where there was lot of confusion and chaos, we decided to go for the government-to-government process separately to buy 36 Rafale under flyaway condition," said Parrikar.

"The Prime Minister has taken a bold step considering the country's strategic need," he added.

While the order is meant to be delivered as soon as possible, terms and conditions of the deal — estimated at about $4.25 billion (about `700 crore) — have yet to be worked out. "The two sides have agreed in principal and representatives need to sit together to discuss further course of action," he said.

Replying to a question on whether future deals on Rafale would also be through the G2G route, Parrikar said, "All deal(s) will be in G2G only. The 36 aircraft are in fly-away condition which means they will be manufactured by the company in France and supplied in fly-away condition," adding that no decision has been made on the number of aircraft under the MMRCA category.

The defence minister went on to add that the decision to buy 126 jets was a steep financial target. Ministry officials, privy to the development, said the project cost escalated to over $20 billion from $12 billion, when the tender was floated in 2007. The hike in cost included the life cycle spend, creating assembly lines and transfer of technology.

Acknowledging that Light Combat Aircraft Tejas will undergo final flight testing in May, Parrikar said, 'Make In India' is a long-term solution for India's Air Force strength.

36 on the Fast Track, 126 Rafale Deal Shot Down | idrw.org
 

smestarz

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Re: Dassault Rafale wins MMRCA!

Sir,

Probably lca mk2 will be a sane choice ,but this is what our defence minister said and I am sure he has his own valid reasons for it.Moreover LCA MK2 is still on papers .
Did the defence minister say " 90 rafales or directly purchase from France under GTG" ? or you added the number?
I quote the RM as follows:

"Instead of going through the RFP (Request For Proposal bidding process), where there is lot of confusion, chaos, it is now the situation that 36 will be procured ready to fly. What is to be done with the rest will have to be discussed," Parrikar said.

MMRCA deal: Government may scrap $20 billion project for 126 Rafale fighter jets - The Economic Times

Thus nothing is sure if more nos will be discussed or not and that the discussion will be with French govt and not Dassault.
 

Illusive

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That's only partly true. LCA MK1 has design issues and all, but IAF's reluctance and dismissive attitude towards LCA is in large part due to the well entrenched "import lobby" both within IAF and MoD. Senior officials both in IAF and MoD are on record saying that the seeming imperfect Tejas is still better than many planes in the IAF fleet. Thus, it would make sense to replace these with LCA.

It should be pointed out that Indian Navy is fully appreciative and supportive of HAL efforts on N-LCA. Why? Because IN is better committed to indigenisation than IAF.

I do not absolve HAL of its shortcomings and criminal neglect in this matter, but IAF has done itself no favours by hanging specifications on a whim and taking a stance that Tejas is junk regardless of what happens. HAL on the other hand was lackadaisical and lacked sufficient innovation and was happy mastering the "screwdriver tech" instead of striving for innovation.

These two need a box on the ears and a stick up the arse to get going in the right direction.
Well HAL is just manufacturing, equal stick should be given to ADA, the lack of domestic competition is really hurting, multiple competitive industry is a must for an environment where timeline and customer satisfaction is given top priority.
 

sgarg

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Many strategically important things happening together. On one hand, the GoI seems to have finally lost patience with babudom and decided to take a political risk which is refreshing after 10 years lungii raj. Secondly, as PM is touring the West and signing partnerships, our "old friends" the Russians have stabbed us in the back by selling the deadly S-400 air defense system to the Chinese as confirmed today. Couple this with the all but signed deal for SU-35, advanced radar systems along with long before done deals to ensure that Chinese are always 1 step ahead of us and you see their game...they sell advanced weapons to them and then come up with some new scam to sell us something to counter. S-400 completely undermines and puts doubt on FGFA purchase also as the system is tailor made for anti-stealth usage! Notice also how just as we launched Kolkata-class the Chinese suddenly came up with a not so subtle copy of the BrahMos, how when we acquired INS Chakra they suddenly launched 3 SSN's with VLS systems. Numerous instances of such duplicity can be found if one looks. It is time to shake off the Nehruvian Cold War legacy and jettison our reliance on opportunistic snakes. Yes the Western countries like France are also ultimately after money but at least they do not indulge in double dealing...after a brief flirtation with Pakistan and China in the late 1970's they have firmly turned to India as they saw that no good can come with getting in bed with snakes.
If Americans can deal with Pakistan, then surely Russia can deal with China. Russia is not married to India. China and Russia are geographically attached. Both have healthy trade and strategic relationship. Expecting Russia to abandon its large & strategic relationship with China for 2-3 billion per year worth of military sales in India is sheer foolishness.

Your statements are full of falsehoods and fallacies. This small deal with France does not take anything away from India-Russia relationship.

Russia's relationship with China is in the context of the larger picture and is not necessarily targeted against India.

I think no senior leader or thinker has any doubts about a good relationship with Russia.
 

sgarg

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Well HAL is just manufacturing, equal stick should be given to ADA, the lack of domestic competition is really hurting, multiple competitive industry is a must for an environment where timeline and customer satisfaction is given top priority.
HAL is inefficient, which is the picture of public sector in general. The competitive environment will be created only when two more HAL sized companies exist in India aviation. These companies can only come up in the private sector.

The government should encourage one private sector company to take up military fighter aircraft; and another private company to take up military transport aircraft.
 

ersakthivel

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So my take on this is

1. India has so far ONLY OFFERED to outright buy 36 Rafales in a G2G deal, the terms are right. See this statement from the Raksha Mantri
"We have NOT purchased 36 aircraft, what happens when a PM and President talk is that there is in principle approval."
Do recall that after this, Hollande met with Dassault president, probably to work out terms.

2. MRCA is scrapped, which means RFP terms no longer apply and if French do not come up with a suitable option, Eurofighter can sneak in provided they are willing to provide attractive terms

3. When PM and RM get back, I bet that the MoD babus and their air chiefs, HAL et all will get a very private and a very thorough dressing down. IAF will mostly likely be told. You got your birds, you'll get more MKIs, FGFA when it comes on line, but you WILL accept LCA in large numbers- no two ways about it. No more "MRCAs" for IAF till they fully embrace Tejas. Also a warning for HAL to get their act together- "LCA or a similar single engine aircraft"

4. This saga has been a Clusterf**k of epic proportions. Hopefully, no more and never again.
the one who received the biggest kick in the butt is Dassault, which lost out on the mother of all deals.

meanwhile all those import lobbyists who are crowing that HAL doest have the tech to will shut their mouth once Tejas mk2 and FGFa starts rolling out of HAL lines.

ISRO has already given the order to make cryogenic engines for their GSLV to HAL.

SO the real reason why modi scrapped MMRCA tender was the huge scam built into it by the previousIAF_ UPA regime which failed to shortlist,seal the TOT , price negotiations for the MMCA winner before Financial bids were to expire in 2012.

Now MMRCA backers are beating a slow retreat.

MMRCA deal: Government may scrap $20 billion project for 126 Rafale fighter jets - The Economic Times

MMRCA deal: Government may scrap $20 billion project for 126 Rafale fighter jets - The Economic Times

"The government has bought time now," said Muthumanickam Matheswaran, a former Air Marshal in the Indian Air Force. Future purchases "could be that aircraft, or it could be another aircraft", he said.

GOI has not just bought time, it has closed down the scandal called MMRCA.
"That is an indication that the RFP that has been hanging for more than three years is finished," said Matheswaran, who advises Hindustan Aeronautics.

Read more at:
MMRCA deal: Government may scrap $20 billion project for 126 Rafale fighter jets - The Economic Times
matheswaran is one of the prime MMRCA backer and tejas killer. Govt hasn't bought time. It just threw the scandalous MMRCA contract out of the window and limit rafale buy to 36. because by 2020 I have no doubt that the Modi govt would bring FGFA on line. So there will be no rationale to induct rafale after that.

Bharat Karnad, a professor at the Centre for Policy Research in New Delhi, told Reuters the Rafale deal was an "unmitigated disaster" that would not solve the needs of the air force, offers India nothing in the way of technology transfer and diverts funding from building an Indian-made fighter jet.

"If there was a critical requirement to make up fighter squadrons quickly, then there is no better way than putting an indent with the Russians for more Su-30MKIs," he said.
Obviously it would have been more prudent course of action which was initially hinted at by DM himself. but may be keeping strategic relationship with france played a part in this 36 rafale deal. And modi govt restricts itself to negotiating with french govt not Dassault anymore.

It proves their total lack of faith in MMRCA negotiations adapted by Dassault.

What is most important is if Dassault plays truant GOI is now free to negotiate with any other maker to buy even this now contracted 36 fighters with Dassault.

GOI saw through the all sham arguments put forward by dassault and just cut it off from negotiations is something true, that cannot be denied by anyone.

SO instead of mother of all deals now Dassault has the lolipop of all times in its hands in the form of 36 rafale order and GOI frees itself to induct what it feels right in IAF.
 
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