Know Your 'Rafale'

[IndianHawk]

France will never share anything new. They may share some 1980s tech at exorbitant price. They are known to deny even basic ToT. Ask Israelis. French defense products are generally a decade behind US and cost significantly more due to higher wages and smaller scale. India was right to cancel 126 jet contract with Dassault because India would have learned nothing from that assembly.

The only partner that gives real technology to manufacture is US. Just look at how many nations make F-35, F-16, C-130, Apache parts and upgrade packages. India is finally exporting weapons thanks to Boeing and Lockheed. This can get much bigger if India selects more US weapons.

India hasn’t exported any weapons or parts back to Russia and Russians haven’t utilized Indian companies in their supply chain despite selling $100 billion worth weapons. F-21 may not be ideal for IAF but with AMRAAM Model-D it’s good enough to deter any enemy. India in return will make more money by supplying global chain of F-16s and learn invaluable lessons in aircraft manufacturing.

Food for thought.

That is what I was saying about Russia . They have taken advantage of over dependence. Still they co-operate in nuke sub and lease us a nuke sub.

Will USA lease India a nuke sub?

France deal are bound by offsets just like USA deals. And no we are not exporting weapons to USA we are exporting components parts as offset deals. Just like we are doing with falcon jet parts for rafale deal. So nothing special here with USA.

F21 comes strings attached , can we use it for nuke delivery like rafale ? Nope.
Can we use is to bomb Pakistan like mirage without USA blocking us ? Nope.

And our own mwf is very near f21 performance so why buy the competition.

 

[IndianHawk]

Lol.. ok. Carry on. Sounds like India has already done everything and doesn’t need US at all.

Lol USA was the one who blocked cryogenics technology transfer to India. But live in your la la land.

 

[IndianHawk]

Sir good post but will only give LIKE when something SIGNIFICANT HAPPEN ON ENGINE PART otherwise OLD FRENCH WAY OF SELLING THINGS.
Waiting for our French friends here to say something on this though.
I don't know what happened in scorpene fiasco yes fiasco but can't understand why navy is not going for repeat order.
Surely something happened that made navy not to repeat orders from French maybe ASKING PRICE FOR GIVING PRECIOUS TECHNOLOGY was more than us can handle.
That's with every country. :bounce:

I think our plan is different . Our naval plan calls for 24 ask. 6 from project 75( Scorpion)
+ 6 from 75i ( with more indegination and deeper tot) than +12-13 complete indegenios based on learning from 75 and 75i .

So that plan is moving forward . Chances for extra Scorpion are low unless France makes a deal which we can't deny .

 

[BON PLAN]

France will never share anything new. They may share some 1980s tech at exorbitant price. They are known to deny even basic ToT. Ask Israelis. French defense products are generally a decade behind US and cost significantly more due to higher wages and smaller scale. India was right to cancel 126 jet contract with Dassault because India would have learned nothing from that assembly.

The only partner that gives real technology to manufacture is US. Just look at how many nations make F-35, F-16, C-130, Apache parts and upgrade packages. India is finally exporting weapons thanks to Boeing and Lockheed. This can get much bigger if India selects more US weapons.

India hasn’t exported any weapons or parts back to Russia and Russians haven’t utilized Indian companies in their supply chain despite selling $100 billion worth weapons. F-21 may not be ideal for IAF but with AMRAAM Model-D it’s good enough to deter any enemy. India in return will make more money by supplying global chain of F-16s and learn invaluable lessons in aircraft manufacturing.

Food for thought.

You are writing as if you are american....
Ask Israeli.... France gave a full access to Israelis to adapt laser guider bombs to M2000 during Kargil. And ask israeli where come the know how to built their nuclear missiles (Dassault MD620) and nuc warheads (french secret assistance).
French products decades behind US products... Same than when Admiral Rickover, the father of the USN deterrence subs, spoke about the french effort to built SLBM and nuclear subs: "they will never succed". We did it !
Our Rafale won technically in South Korea, but it's only the US pressures not the US weapons quality that prevail.
AESA radar : first were Japan, next US, and third France.
Main Battle tank : our Leclerc is a gen ahead of Abrams.
Deterrence : our M51 is on par with Trident. Our ASMP A has nos counterpart in the US arsenal.
Meteor, not a french product, but a european one (with french seeker !) smashed AMRAAM even D variant.
etc...
We only have a disadvantage : we are 7th smaller than USA. That's all.

F35... even the sole tier one partner, GB, was deny to developp its engine ! The partners are only allowed to give money... That's why GB, ITaly, Netherlands will NEVER purchase the qty intended at the beginning.
F21 is now a old horse. a kind of Sopwith Camel for the WW2....

The US are too proud. They live in the nostalgia of the cold war time. They are no more the world incontestable leader, technically and politically.

 

[BON PLAN]

Japan received immense tech and aid from US post world war but their foreign policy is under US

NO. It was the rules of the ww2 surrender conditions.

 

[BON PLAN]

Sir good post but will only give LIKE when something SIGNIFICANT HAPPEN ON ENGINE PART otherwise OLD FRENCH WAY OF SELLING THINGS.
Waiting for our French friends here to say something on this though.
I don't know what happened in scorpene fiasco yes fiasco but can't understand why navy is not going for repeat order.
Surely something happened that made navy not to repeat orders from French maybe ASKING PRICE FOR GIVING PRECIOUS TECHNOLOGY was more than us can handle.
That's with every country. :bounce:

You remember me a old forum "friend", Smestarz, who said that India will never purchase Rafale : too old, too costly, not stealth enough, no ToT.... even some weeks before september 2016...
Scorpene Fiasco ? The 2 nd will be induced this month. Some weeks ago a fake news said that there were a lot of deep problems with it... No way.
And in the same manner I made a bet with Smestarz about Rafale order, I make a bet with you about a follow on order for Scorpene. OK ?

 

[Deathstar]

NO. It was the rules of the ww2 surrender conditions.

Thats what they are completely under the US ,even UK , Australia , Canada are under US. French were spared despite getting runover by Germans quite easily

 

[BON PLAN]

"Over the last five years, Gripen, Rafale and Typhoon fighters have come to the Red Flag air combat exercises in Alaska to be matched up against US aircraft. With their advanced electronic warfare suites and superior data links, the Gripen and Rafale fighters had no problem in locating the F-22s and remaining undetected by everything but powerful radar scans, which would have led to the destruction of the radar-emitting aircraft by the radar-homing Meteor missile. F-22 pilots reported these smaller fighters were upon them within-visual-range before the F-22’s vaunted electronics suite could detect them. The smaller Gripen was within gun-fighting range before being detected. F-22 pilots were forced to go vertical to escape most of the time using their huge Pratt and Whitney engines at full afterburner which is not a good technique against even an average pilot with heat-seeking missiles. The 2015 Red Flag Alaska was highlighted by one German Typhoon recording three kills against F-22s. And that is with the Typhoon not being allowed to use its infrared-search-and-track under the rules of the engagement."

https://www.aph.gov.au/DocumentStore.ashx?id=cafb27be-b52e-4614-aa64-f2782942aeca&subId=407837

 

[Assassin 2.0]

France will never share anything new. They may share some 1980s tech at exorbitant price. They are known to deny even basic ToT. Ask Israelis. French defense products are generally a decade behind US and cost significantly more due to higher wages and smaller scale. India was right to cancel 126 jet contract with Dassault because India would have learned nothing from that assembly.

The only partner that gives real technology to manufacture is US. Just look at how many nations make F-35, F-16, C-130, Apache parts and upgrade packages. India is finally exporting weapons thanks to Boeing and Lockheed. This can get much bigger if India selects more US weapons.

India hasn’t exported any weapons or parts back to Russia and Russians haven’t utilized Indian companies in their supply chain despite selling $100 billion worth weapons. F-21 may not be ideal for IAF but with AMRAAM Model-D it’s good enough to deter any enemy. India in return will make more money by supplying global chain of F-16s and learn invaluable lessons in aircraft manufacturing.

Food for thought.

The US government has been pushing India to place an order for their soon to be out of production F-21 aircraft also known as an F-16V fighter jet. F-21 has been pushed to India has an low-cost alternative which features F-35 technology in terms of avionics and sensors and will be exclusively Made, locally in India if it gets the deal for 114 units of fighter aircraft from the Indian air force. While there is no official figure out by the Indian budget for the tender to buy 114 fighter aircraft, but by judging by the recent sale of F-16V to the new customer it is expected that American fighters will have a much more hefty price tag, due to lack of exposure of American jets in IAF fleet. Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) filing rates given for the Lockheed Martin F-16V fighters to Bulgaria, stands at $1.67 billion for eight fighters in addition to a broad range of sensors, weapons, training devices, software, training, support, and spares. Since Bulgarian air force is predominately made of Russian Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-29, lack of exposure will mean an additional need for infrastructure, local tools, spares training of manpower and if same rates are factored in for Indian deal then the whole ecosystem to operate F-21 fleet by IAF will be close to $24 billion. It could have been little cheaper for IAF if it already operated any American build fighter aircraft since it would not have required to place separate orders for weapons and other ground support tools and even if India was an existing operator of older blocks of F-16s even then could have been over $17 billion. There is no data to back that TATA-LM developed F-21 fighter aircraft locally in India will be cheaper than F-16V produced at current Lockheed Martin facilities in the United States. Lockheed Martin wants to make its TATA-LM subsidiary to be major global supply chain of all F-16s operators which has potential to generate orders worth a few more billions and revenue for the country in tax collections, But, there is no data guarantee that the company will be getting more orders for aging F-16V from its current operators, most of them which are already making transaction to the latest F-35 offering from the same company. It is also a fact that F-16 aircraft being the second highest produced fighter aircraft in the history after Mig-21. there exists plenty of used F-16s around which will be mothballed to be used as spare support by other operators. While USAF plans to maintain a fleet of 300 F-16s till 2048, which has been peddled by TATA-LM in India as proof that fighter aircraft is technologically still relevant and will be in operation for next 30 years, it is also a fact that USAF has decided to maintain them due to budgetary problems with the F-35A program and mostly will limit them to flying in United States airbase only, due to pressure from local politicians who want to keep local supply line for the F-16s fleet running to keep local jobs
(REALITY FOR A THOUGHT??)FACTS FOR A THOUGHT?
In 90s also US was claiming big things by supplying Northrop F-20 Tigershark saying we will shift whole production line bla bla bla but in reality that was again a milking thing. India kept quite and went on with Mig-29 and mirage 2000. Many things have been changed in india Us relationships but something never changes
India will never ever buy that pathetic F-16. @BON PLAN @asianobserve @Indx TechStyle

 

[Aaj ka hero]

You remember me a old forum "friend", Smestarz, who said that India will never purchase Rafale : too old, too costly, not stealth enough, no ToT.... even some weeks before september 2016...
Scorpene Fiasco ? The 2 nd will be induced this month. Some weeks ago a fake news said that there were a lot of deep problems with it... No way.
And in the same manner I made a bet with Smestarz about Rafale order, I make a bet with you about a follow on order for Scorpene. OK ?

Don't bet me, Order is already there for you, just give engine tech and the tech that is desired for submarine at the RIGHT PRICE.
Why in the world navy is not ordering follow on scorpene is something I can only speculate and that speculation is TOO MUCH COST FOR THE GIVEN TECHNOLOGY.
If you want to bet on this, then we have a bet.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Don't bet me, Order is already there for you, just give engine tech and the tech that is desired for submarine at the RIGHT PRICE.
Why in the world navy is not ordering follow on scorpene is something I can only speculate and that speculation is TOO MUCH COST FOR THE GIVEN TECHNOLOGY.
If you want to bet on this, then we have a bet.

The whole world IS ordering Scorpene Class submarines. Only they are the upgraded Barracuda variant.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.de...ew-submarine-era-for-france-and-australia/amp

India's long term goal is SSN type submarines.

 

[Armand2REP]

But he is right in one thing , US companies defence offset exports have help us turn it into 10000 crore , i dont remember aby Russian , French company doing what Boeing and Lockheed are doing in terms of exports from India.
Only thing i oppose is though US is ahead in tech but the only condition to get all that tech is if u surrender your foreign policy
Eg South Korea , Japan received immense tech and aid from US post world war but their foreign policy is under US

They are meeting their offsets just like everyone else. You paid for every bit of those exports and more.

 

[BON PLAN]

Don't bet me, Order is already there for you, just give engine tech and the tech that is desired for submarine at the RIGHT PRICE.
Why in the world navy is not ordering follow on scorpene is something I can only speculate and that speculation is TOO MUCH COST FOR THE GIVEN TECHNOLOGY.
If you want to bet on this, then we have a bet.

You forget one thing for Scorpene (or Boomer, or MMRCA1, or Light helo, or torpedos, or artillery guns ...) : The nightmare indian bureaucracy !
The case was exactly the same before Rafale order : too costly, the french don't want to give the ToT, the US products are better ( ) .... Be confident.

 

[BON PLAN]

The whole world IS ordering Scorpene Class submarines. Only they are the upgraded Barracuda variant.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.de...ew-submarine-era-for-france-and-australia/amp

India's long term goal is SSN type submarines.

and we have this medium range product to "offer" : Barracuda SSN.
Not as costly than Virginia or Astute (bur carrying less weapons...)
Able to carry a french cruise missile (not a US one)
Totally french (Astute is partially US)
...

 

[vampyrbladez]

and we have this medium range product to "offer" : Barracuda SSN.
Not as costly than Virginia or Astute (bur carrying less weapons...)
Able to carry a french cruise missile (not a US one)
Totally french (Astute is partially US)
...

We prefer Russian - Indian SSNs as we are more familiar with the tech and the Russians are among the top two submarine makers in the world.

French subs will have to contend with conventional orders for the foreseeable future.

 

[BON PLAN]

We prefer Russian - Indian SSNs as we are more familiar with the tech and the Russians are among the top two submarine makers in the world.

French subs will have to contend with conventional orders for the foreseeable future.

with pleasure !

 

[IndianHawk]

We prefer Russian - Indian SSNs as we are more familiar with the tech and the Russians are among the top two submarine makers in the world.

French subs will have to contend with conventional orders for the foreseeable future.

SSN will be all Indian design. Russian help was limited to Arihant class design.

Also 75i project (6 ask) will be last to build with foreign technology . All next ssk will be completely indegenios.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Summarizing, France may be costlier but is far more reliable partner than US & Russia while buying techd. Particularly, because it doesn't try to dominate us.

Sooner people realise it, better for them.

 

[Aaj ka hero]

You forget one thing for Scorpene (or Boomer, or MMRCA1, or Light helo, or torpedos, or artillery guns ...) : The nightmare indian bureaucracy !
The case was exactly the same before Rafale order : too costly, the french don't want to give the ToT, the US products are better ( ) .... Be confident.

Ha..... Saying like you have open ground bureaucracy.
And man, are you not charging for heli engines?
Other countries too charge,what's the difference.
I want to say we got many things from Russia as well as France and add Israel too.
Time has came to stand on our own feet.
I don't see merit in buying more rafale or to say scorpenes if no extra help is coming on NEW technology front.
Why to buy more rafale? If no help is going to be given on our Kaveri.
Better to invest that MUCH money on Tejas mk-2 and homegrown submarines.
And you wanted bet with me na, let's see if navy cancel p-75i and go for scorpenes.

 

[Aaj ka hero]

The whole world IS ordering Scorpene Class submarines. Only they are the upgraded Barracuda variant.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.de...ew-submarine-era-for-france-and-australia/amp

India's long term goal is SSN type submarines.

I was talking about our navy,no extra order for scorpenes placed yet.
What's the deal?