AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[BON PLAN]

Supercruise is not really efficient. Yes, it is efficient compared to using afetrburner. But if few minutes of time is not really such a big constraint, it is better to go at 0.8-0.9 Mach speed than at 1.1-1.2 Mach speed in terms of range. When objects move close to the speed of sound or cross it (0.9+ Mach), the drag forces increase exponentially causing fuel efficiency to drop significantly. The plane will quickly run out of fuel which is not desirable.
For example, Considering the max range of most fighter jets to be 3000km (2 way with external fuel), supercruise will lower that to 2000km which reduces the overall range. If one goes at 1.1Mach (1300kmph), it will take 93mins whereas going at 0.9 Mach will take 111mins. Yes, 20 mins will be saved but at the expense of sacrificing 1000km range. In case of emergencies like evading hostile planes or missiles, one can always use Afterburners as in such cases range does not matter & all one sees is to get back to safety. Scenarios where supercruise will be genuinely required are minimum

Supercruise is called supercruise when > mach 1,3
F35 can reach mach 1,1 without reheat but in slight descent....

 

[AnantS]

Like you I think AMCA will serve India's needs... eventually. Mk1 will do that but I would guess not until mid-2030's onwards. Who can say when exactly? India sets schedules for fighter developments, misses them, sets new schedules, misses those, too, and that goes on and on and on.

I'll tell you something, now that DFI's days are numbered. I used to work in an F1 team. The team once worked for over 60 hours (with occasional breaks) to get the new car finished so it would not miss the 747 freighter flight taking all the F1 cars to North America for the next race. I personally drove it to the airport and delivered it on time. It may astonish a lot of people that schedules can be met if people put in the effort required! And it may explain my irritation at endless delays in getting Indian fighter aircraft built and delivered.

PS I didn't actually drive the car to the airport - it was on the trailer behind my vehicle.

And that's how people work here too when deadlines are to be met. But problem with defence industries especially for countries facing tech denial and budgetary constraints, more than will to do work it's the constraints that drag the work. Think this was if in 60 hours you could not even source the part which you paid for and promised ontime delivery. Would that 60 hrs been possible when you can't source that part from elsewhere u less you go through whole cycle of component validation verification process or nothing else is feasible?

In colored developing countries not in servitude relationship with any country, things do face lot of harsh delay sometimes due to general insolence but more than often it's other constraints.

This is precisely why our pvt industry shirks away from doing R&D especially in defence. This is why Hardware startups in India face upheaval task in just getting product out if they decide on onset to not source anything from China.

It's the missing pieces , the building of supply chain and then scaling them up is one of the major challenges.

You want parallel.. think UK's space rocket program. UK does not lack skill or will for it at all. It has one of the best skilled people. Then what's stops it's fructation?

 

[Spitfire9]

You want parallel.. think UK's space rocket program. UK does not lack skill or will for it at all. It has one of the best skilled people. Then what's stops it's fructation?

UK cancelled its government-supported launcher programme in 1971. I think it was partially due to the government failing to foresee the growth in commercial satellite launches The UK has become a major player in the commercial satellite business. UK space industry turnover is in the region of $20 billion a year.

 

[Spitfire9]

And that's how people work here too when deadlines are to be met. But problem with defence industries especially for countries facing tech denial and budgetary constraints, more than will to do work it's the constraints that drag the work. Think this was if in 60 hours you could not even source the part which you paid for and promised ontime delivery. Would that 60 hrs been possible when you can't source that part from elsewhere u less you go through whole cycle of component validation verification process or nothing else is feasible?

In colored developing countries not in servitude relationship with any country, things do face lot of harsh delay sometimes due to general insolence but more than often it's other constraints.

This is precisely why our pvt industry shirks away from doing R&D especially in defence. This is why Hardware startups in India face upheaval task in just getting product out if they decide on onset to not source anything from China.

It's the missing pieces , the building of supply chain and then scaling them up is one of the major challenges.

Agreed, too many constraints in India from what I have learnt from this forum. They delay getting things done. Unless there is some kind of revolution in Indian thinking, I think the many constraints will hold India back and relegate it to 'also ran' status in the world's fighter market.

 

[AnantS]

Agreed, too many constraints in India from what I have learnt from this forum. They delay getting things done. Unless there is some kind of revolution in Indian thinking, I think the many constraints will hold India back and relegate it to 'also ran' status in the world's fighter market.

The only danger is whatever new political dispensation id holding reins in democracy killing off any defence prog for favorite Public vote gathering subsidy or for western ego massaging inport order. Otherwise things might be sloe but things chugs along as several critical components get indigenously which have ripple effect elsewhere. From our prepecfuve program must go on. If not 5th you cam atleast get base ready for 6th. Currently what May not be visible to you but parallely multiple unmanned programs are going on with AI enabled features. So aviation tech developed in one prog flows to another. TRUE that for current foreseeable future aviation research in India will grow at its own slow pace as long as govt keeps it on minimum life support doles.

 

[MirageBlue]

Yes, because both supercruise and IWB are held to be necessary for an aircraft to be classed as 5G.

Phase 3 of KF-21 may involve redesign of the aircraft to include an IWB. Phase 2 of AMCA will involve using an engine powerful enough to enable it to supercruise. Both changes would result in the aircraft being deemed 5G. Personally I would use the term 5G- to describe both at the moment.

You can't cherry pick the qualities deemed necessary for 5G classification to dismiss those missing from your country's design, whether you are Indian or South Korean.

Once again, you're basically ruling out the F-35 as being 5th gen by calling super cruise as a basic requirement of 5th gen fighters. I doubt anyone will agree with that, especially the nations that are now banking on the F-35 fulfilling almost all their needs for the next 50 years.

It is a good to have feature but the bulk of the missions that require 5th gen fighters to breach air defences and strike don't require super cruise ability. But RCS? That is hard to compromise on, since that is needed for almost all types of missions that multi-role 5th gen fighters may be tasked with.

Anyway I am not going to worry about whether the AMCA can only cross the Mach barrier with dry thrust or first use AB to cross the Mach barrier and then maintain supersonic speed on full dry thrust. I am much more worried about it's shaping, EW and radar.

 

[BON PLAN]

Agree.
I remember for all the 5G Lockeed Martin definition :

• Affordable
• Supercruise able
• At least agile as a F16
• with sensor fusion.

Note that F22 is short on affordability.
Note that F35 is short on super cruise, and even on agility it's not perfect.

As for now, no jet in the world is 5G, even the ones from Lockeed Martin itself ! funny isn't ?

I forgot one essential asset for 5G : STEALTH !!! sorry for that big oversight.

 

[Spitfire9]

I recall, too. Yes, F-35 was marketed as far superior to F-16 but with comparable operating cost. I never believed that and US CPFH cost is still over $30,000, I think.

 

[Blademaster]

I recall, too. Yes, F-35 was marketed as far superior to F-16 but with comparable operating cost. I never believed that and US CPFH cost is still over $30,000, I think.

Always wonder what that high operating cost is attributable to. Is it maintaining the stealth coating? Replacing parts after every flight or something?

 

[AnantS]

Always wonder what that high operating cost is attributable to. Is it maintaining the stealth coating? Replacing parts after every flight or something?

Stealth aircraft itself built with tight tolerances and exotic materials. Both increase maintenance costs. Stealth aircraft do need coatings redone just like other aircrafts need repaints after some sorties. In normal aircrafts paint peeling off - is either taken care during maintenance or is done only after fixed time intervals. But in stealth aircrafts - Coatings have duty other than what normal paint coats have which is body protection and aesthetics, which we know is selective frequency radar wave absorption - which necessitates frequent Maintenance too. Coatings can be inform for paint or specially curated material layered on top of frame.

 

[BON PLAN]

Always wonder what that high operating cost is attributable to. Is it maintaining the stealth coating? Replacing parts after every flight or something?

Don't forget the bird is very hot because the engine had to be uprated to its max as the empty weight of the bird grow with time during developpment phase.
So probably a quicker stress under temperature than intended, on RAM, on electronical parts etc...

And higher temperature is not good for IR stealth also, but it's another history.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

T

This thread was started in 2009 !!!!!!!!!! WOW!!
And we crossed 400+ pages mark, awesome

This forum is closing on 10th July 2024, NO! NO! NO! How did this happen? HOW?

 

[Samej Jangir]

Supercruise is called supercruise when > mach 1,3
F35 can reach mach 1,1 without reheat but in slight descent....

Supercrusie is cruising at 1.1Mach (greater than speed of sound) or higher when in flat trajectory. While descending, almost any plane can go fast without afterburner. Nevertheless, my point is that speed above 0.9Mach causes extraordinary air drag which increases exponentially as speed increases. This means speed of 1.3Mach would consume 2 times as much fuel as 0.8Mach for same distance eve without using A/B

 

[NutCracker]

T

View attachment 259348
This forum is closing on 10th July 2024, NO! NO! NO! How did this happen? HOW?

Jiska janm hua hai uska ant bhi nishchit hai.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Jiska janm hua hai uska ant bhi nishchit hai.

sirf 15 saal ki umar me mrityu, galat baat Daal me kuch kala hai

 

[Samej Jangir]

sirf 15 saal ki umar me mrityu, galat baat Daal me kuch kala hai

Even the oldest website is only 33 year old!

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Even the oldest website is only 33 year old!

Let's regroup on other forums. I'm checking out few. XENFORO also powers some of these sites -

Defence News

Your hub for latest Indian defence news, analysis, and insights on Indian military preparedness, technology, and strategic affairs.

defence.in

strategic front

F-16.net - The ultimate F-16, F-35 and F-22 reference

www.f-16.net

Secret Projects Forum

Unbuilt Projects, Military and Aviation Technology

www.secretprojects.co.uk

DefenceHub | Global Military & Security Forum

The best location for international defence discussions and updates.

defencehub.live

DefenceTalk | Defense News Military Forum Pictures

Defence Talk features world defense , aerospace, security, war, military, aviation and armed forces news, forum and military photos

www.defencetalk.com

 

[Samej Jangir]

Let's regroup on other forums. I'm checking out few. XENFORO also powers some of these sites -

Defence News

Your hub for latest Indian defence news, analysis, and insights on Indian military preparedness, technology, and strategic affairs.

defence.in

strategic front

F-16.net - The ultimate F-16, F-35 and F-22 reference

www.f-16.net

Secret Projects Forum

Unbuilt Projects, Military and Aviation Technology

www.secretprojects.co.uk

DefenceHub | Global Military & Security Forum

The best location for international defence discussions and updates.

defencehub.live

DefenceTalk | Defense News Military Forum Pictures

Defence Talk features world defense , aerospace, security, war, military, aviation and armed forces news, forum and military photos

www.defencetalk.com

I would not recommend Strategic front. It was founded by the same team that ran IDF.

 

[Blood+]

Jiska janm hua hai uska ant bhi nishchit hai.

Unless you're a hydra or a jellyfish.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

I would not recommend Strategic front. It was founded by the same team that ran IDF.

Really? Ididn't know that. So what's the problem as long it is running? I hope they are not shutting it down too. Perhaps they want to remove redundancy.