AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[Spitfire9]

Just for the record, India, Turkiye and South Korea all started 5G fighter programmes around the same time (2010).

South Korea yesterday signed a production contract for 20 KF-21. Deliveries scheduled fro2026
Turkiye

 

[Spitfire9]

Sorry, screen froze while making post above. Try again...

India, Turkiye and South Korea all started 5G fighter programmes around the same time (2010).

South Korea yesterday signed a production contract for 20 KF-21. EIS with air force scheduled 2026.
Turkiye had the first flight of its KAAN earlier this year. First deliveries scheduled for 2028.
Where do things stand with AMCA? Is the design finalised yet? A few days ago Indian media ran a story that stealth shaping had been finalised.

 

[MirageBlue]

Sorry, screen froze while making post above. Try again...

India, Turkiye and South Korea all started 5G fighter programmes around the same time (2010).

South Korea yesterday signed a production contract for 20 KF-21. EIS with air force scheduled 2026.
Turkiye had the first flight of its KAAN earlier this year. First deliveries scheduled for 2028.
Where do things stand with AMCA? Is the design finalised yet? A few days ago Indian media ran a story that stealth shaping had been finalised.

20 KF-21s that they themselves classify as 4.5+ gen. It lacks IWS which is a critical element of a 5th gen program.

They're now planning 3 variants of the KF-21. KF-21EA for Electronic Attack, KF-21EX for a 5th gen fighter and the KF-21 to be offered for export with customized avionics and electronics.

Turkey's KAAN has had a grand total of what- 5 flights till date? Out of nearly 3000 that will be needed to test all test points? And even the prototype that has flown is not even close to the production standard version. It is going to be heavily modified going forward. Anyone who believes it will be delivered by 2028 is delusional. BTW, they haven't even finished the Critical Design Review of the design that was flown. So much for rushing it into flight to meet some political goal.

AMCA design is frozen and CDR completed for all systems and Acceptance of Necessity granted by the GoI's Cabinet Committee on Security which allows for funds to be released for development and prototype construction.

 

[Spitfire9]

20 KF-21s that they themselves classify as 4.5+ gen. It lacks IWS which is a critical element of a 5th gen program.

They're now planning 3 variants of the KF-21. KF-21EA for Electronic Attack, KF-21EX for a 5th gen fighter and the KF-21 to be offered for export with customized avionics and electronics.

Turkey's KAAN has had a grand total of what- 5 flights till date? Out of nearly 3000 that will be needed to test all test points? And even the prototype that has flown is not even close to the production standard version. It is going to be heavily modified going forward. Anyone who believes it will be delivered by 2028 is delusional. BTW, they haven't even finished the Critical Design Review of the design that was flown. So much for rushing it into flight to meet some political goal.

AMCA design is frozen and CDR completed for all systems and Acceptance of Necessity granted by the GoI's Cabinet Committee on Security which allows for funds to be released for development and prototype construction.

Neither KF-21(no IWB) nor AMCA (no supercruise) meet basic 5G design criteria.. If South Korea describes KF-21,as 4.5 G, that's accurate. If India describes AMCA as 5G, that's not accurate.

I go along with you on KAAN being not being delivered in 2028 but I would not deem it impossible. I have the impression that when Turkiye sets out to do something, things get done.

Something you might be able to explain: if AMCA design was frozen months back, how come some change concerning stealth was reported a few days ago?

 

[Samej Jangir]

Neither KF-21(no IWB) nor AMCA (no supercruise) meet basic 5G design criteria.. If South Korea describes KF-21,as 4.5 G, that's accurate. If India describes AMCA as 5G, that's not accurate.

I go along with you on KAAN being not being delivered in 2028 but I would not deem it impossible. I have the impression that when Turkiye sets out to do something, things get done.

Something you might be able to explain: if AMCA design was frozen months back, how come some change concerning stealth was reported a few days ago?

FYI F35 has no supercruise. Also, AMCA with 110kN x 2 (dry 72kN x 2) engines for MToW of 25tons would likely have supercruise considering the huge TWR. In comparison, Rafales have 75kN x 2 (50kN x 2 dry) engines for 24ton MToW.

As for Kf21, its engine and key electronics will be from USA import. So, it still does not meet the criteria of being South Korean. As for KAAN, it is just a loudmouth boasting. Turkiye can't even develop a 3rd gen fighter and suddenly are claiming to develop 5th gen ones are nothing but Snake oil sellers

 

[Kaali244]

Sorry, screen froze while making post above. Try again...

India, Turkiye and South Korea all started 5G fighter programmes around the same time (2010).

South Korea yesterday signed a production contract for 20 KF-21. EIS with air force scheduled 2026.
Turkiye had the first flight of its KAAN earlier this year. First deliveries scheduled for 2028.
Where do things stand with AMCA? Is the design finalised yet? A few days ago Indian media ran a story that stealth shaping had been finalised.

around the same time DFI started and it's already DFI's end and fifth generation prj is flying in babu's pocket

 

[Spitfire9]

FYI F35 has no supercruise. Also, AMCA with 110kN x 2 (dry 72kN x 2) engines for MToW of 25tons would likely have supercruise considering the huge TWR. In comparison, Rafales have 75kN x 2 (50kN x 2 dry) engines for 24ton MToW.

As for Kf21, its engine and key electronics will be from USA import. So, it still does not meet the criteria of being South Korean. As for KAAN, it is just a loudmouth boasting. Turkiye can't even develop a 3rd gen fighter and suddenly are claiming to develop 5th gen ones are nothing but Snake oil sellers

It's strange to me that F-35 does not supercruise. Yes, according to accepted 5G criteria, it is not 5G.

Yes, one day AMCA will be able to supercruise if India gets round to selecting a 110kN engine developer, agreeing a price for the development (with some Indian contribution) and signing a contract.

I'm not sure that the ROK air force has much interest in who makes what bits in the KF-21. Their interest is to start operating it. The ROK can do that when aircraft start being delivered. No different to the IAF- It can start operating AMCA when aircraft start being delivered. Neither air force can operate aircraft (whatever their specification) that have not yet been delivered.

I congratulate South Korea and KAI on running a project that has successfully reached the point of production.

 

[MirageBlue]

Neither KF-21(no IWB) nor AMCA (no supercruise) meet basic 5G design criteria.. If South Korea describes KF-21,as 4.5 G, that's accurate. If India describes AMCA as 5G, that's not accurate.

I go along with you on KAAN being not being delivered in 2028 but I would not deem it impossible. I have the impression that when Turkiye sets out to do something, things get done.

Something you might be able to explain: if AMCA design was frozen months back, how come some change concerning stealth was reported a few days ago?

Oh good to know that super cruise is mandatory for a 5th gen fighter. That means that the F-35 is a 4.5 gen fighter since it can't super cruise.

Curiously, the F-35 can't even maintain sustained supersonic speeds at high altitudes, due to various reasons, including stealth coatings and antennae that can be damaged due to high supersonic speeds.

Limits on F-35's supersonic flights

 

[Spitfire9]

To quote from your link

For the F-35, as opposed to the F-22 where supersonic flight is baked into its tactics, the ability to fly supersonic is more of a “break glass in case of emergency” feature, said Bryan Clark, an analyst with the Hudson Institute and a retired naval officer.

“Supersonic flight is not a big feature of the F-35,” Clark said. “It’s capable of it, but when you talk to F-35 pilots, they’ll say they’d fly supersonic in such limited times and cases that — while having the ability is nice because you never know when you are going to need to run away from something very fast — it’s just not a main feature for their tactics.”

That shortcoming seems like a serious one to me. Could flying supersonic contribute to the very high CPFH of F-35?

The term 5G was invented by LM, wasn't it, to encompass the attributes offered by the next generation F-22 that were not found on other fighters?

Supercruise is most useful in range extension when you want to get from A to B quickly, isn't it? If you need to run away from a threat and you have afterburner, I guess you use it.

 

[Samej Jangir]

To quote from your link



That shortcoming seems like a serious one to me. Could flying supersonic contribute to the very high CPFH of F-35?

The term 5G was invented by LM, wasn't it, to encompass the attributes offered by the next generation F-22 that were not found on other fighters?

Supercruise is most useful in range extension when you want to get from A to B quickly, isn't it? If you need to run away from a threat and you have afterburner, I guess you use it.

Supercruise is not really efficient. Yes, it is efficient compared to using afetrburner. But if few minutes of time is not really such a big constraint, it is better to go at 0.8-0.9 Mach speed than at 1.1-1.2 Mach speed in terms of range. When objects move close to the speed of sound or cross it (0.9+ Mach), the drag forces increase exponentially causing fuel efficiency to drop significantly. The plane will quickly run out of fuel which is not desirable.
For example, Considering the max range of most fighter jets to be 3000km (2 way with external fuel), supercruise will lower that to 2000km which reduces the overall range. If one goes at 1.1Mach (1300kmph), it will take 93mins whereas going at 0.9 Mach will take 111mins. Yes, 20 mins will be saved but at the expense of sacrificing 1000km range. In case of emergencies like evading hostile planes or missiles, one can always use Afterburners as in such cases range does not matter & all one sees is to get back to safety. Scenarios where supercruise will be genuinely required are minimum

 

[Spitfire9]

I am sure that there must be algorithms covering range and speed of intercept of a fixed target at speeds minimising transonic drag. The ability to get somewhere faster without using afterburner must offer some benefit. Apart from anything else, time of exposure to hostile threat would be reduced with supercruise when flying in contested airspace. But I take your point - speed may not be of any importance in many situations.

 

[MirageBlue]

Neither KF-21(no IWB) nor AMCA (no supercruise) meet basic 5G design criteria.. If South Korea describes KF-21,as 4.5 G, that's accurate. If India describes AMCA as 5G, that's not accurate.

I go along with you on KAAN being not being delivered in 2028 but I would not deem it impossible. I have the impression that when Turkiye sets out to do something, things get done.

Something you might be able to explain: if AMCA design was frozen months back, how come some change concerning stealth was reported a few days ago?

Oh good to know that super cruise is mandatory for a 5th gen fighter. That means that the F-35 is a 4.5 gen fighter since it can't super cruise.

Curiously, the F-35 can't even maintain sustained supersonic speeds at high altitudes, due to various reasons, including stealth coatings and antennae that can be damaged due to high supersonic speeds.

Limits on F-35's supersonic flights

 

[Spitfire9]

I replied to your post but it did not appear...

Anyway, all these G things - 4G, 4.5G, 4.5G+, 4.5G++, 5G, 5.5G (used by the more deluded media for AMCA) are very subjective and sometimes confusing. What, for example, distinguishes a 4.5G fighter from a 4G fighter? How about a 4.5G++ fighter. How is that different to a 4.5G+ fighter?

 

[Samej Jangir]

I am sure that there must be algorithms covering range and speed of intercept of a fixed target at speeds minimising transonic drag. The ability to get somewhere faster without using afterburner must offer some benefit. Apart from anything else, time of exposure to hostile threat would be reduced with supercruise when flying in contested airspace. But I take your point - speed may not be of any importance in many situations.

The same speed can be achieved by using after burners. Supercruising has a serious drawback - it needs an excessively powerful engine which means its fuel efficiency will be lowered compared to using a smaller engine. For example, F22 has twin 116kN dry & 156kN wet thrust engines for MToW of 38tons. F35 has 125kN dry & 190kN wet thrust for MToW of 30 tons.
If we look at TWR of the planes,
F22 = (2x116)/38 = 6.1 dry; (2x156)/38 = 8.2 wet
F35 = 125/30 = 4.2 dry; 190/30 = 6.3 wet

This is also why F22 has 3000km range with 2 external tanks while F35 has 2800km just on internal fuel. It is not worth to get supercruise capability which useful for 5% of the missions by sacrificing fuel efficiency which is useful for 80% of the missions

 

[Samej Jangir]

I am sure that there must be algorithms covering range and speed of intercept of a fixed target at speeds minimising transonic drag. The ability to get somewhere faster without using afterburner must offer some benefit. Apart from anything else, time of exposure to hostile threat would be reduced with supercruise when flying in contested airspace. But I take your point - speed may not be of any importance in many situations.

I am sure that there must be algorithms covering range and speed of intercept of a fixed target at speeds minimising transonic drag. The ability to get somewhere faster without using afterburner must offer some benefit. Apart from anything else, time of exposure to hostile threat would be reduced with supercruise when flying in contested airspace. But I take your point - speed may not be of any importance in many situations.

The same speed can be achieved by using after burners. Supercruising has a serious drawback - it needs an excessively powerful engine which means its fuel efficiency will be lowered compared to using a smaller engine. For example, F22 has twin 116kN dry & 156kN wet thrust engines for MToW of 38tons. F35 has 125kN dry & 190kN wet thrust for MToW of 30 tons.
If we look at TWR of the planes,
F22 = (2x116)/38 = 6.1 dry; (2x156)/38 = 8.2 wet
F35 = 125/30 = 4.2 dry; 190/30 = 6.3 wet

This is also why F22 has 2800km range with 4000-5000l external tanks while F35 has 2800km just on internal fuel despite having same internal fuel quantity of 8000l. This translates to 4.3-4.6l/km for F22 & 2.9l/km for F35. Ideally, given the weight difference, F22 should be having 3.6l/km efficiency if it had similar powered engine as F35. F22 is 20-30% fuel inefficient due to bigger engines, a trade-off for supercruise

It is not worth to get supercruise capability which useful for 5% of the missions by sacrificing fuel efficiency which is useful for 80% of the missions

 

[MirageBlue]

I replied to your post but it did not appear...

Anyway, all these G things - 4G, 4.5G, 4.5G+, 4.5G++, 5G, 5.5G (used by the more deluded media for AMCA) are very subjective and sometimes confusing. What, for example, distinguishes a 4.5G fighter from a 4G fighter? How about a 4.5G++ fighter. How is that different to a 4.5G+ fighter?

You were the one who claimed AMCA wasn't 5th gen because it lacked super cruise.

KF-21 is not considered 5th gen even by it's maker because it lacks IWS and has to carry all it's weapons on semi-recessed stations or external pylons. That impacts it's RCS, which is probably one of the defining factors of 5th gen fighters- that they are designed from the ground up to have RCS reduction with their OML design reflecting that.

KF-21's OML is 5th gen'ish, but the lack of IWS means that even on first day of war type missions, it will have increased RCS as it carries weapons externally or in semi-recessed stations.

 

[Spitfire9]

You were the one who claimed AMCA wasn't 5th gen because it lacked super cruise.

KF-21 is not considered 5th gen even by it's maker because it lacks IWS and has to carry all it's weapons on semi-recessed stations or external pylons. That impacts it's RCS, which is probably one of the defining factors of 5th gen fighters- that they are designed from the ground up to have RCS reduction with their OML design reflecting that.

KF-21's OML is 5th gen'ish, but the lack of IWS means that even on first day of war type missions, it will have increased RCS as it carries weapons externally or in semi-recessed stations.

Yes, because both supercruise and IWB are held to be necessary for an aircraft to be classed as 5G.

Phase 3 of KF-21 may involve redesign of the aircraft to include an IWB. Phase 2 of AMCA will involve using an engine powerful enough to enable it to supercruise. Both changes would result in the aircraft being deemed 5G. Personally I would use the term 5G- to describe both at the moment.

You can't cherry pick the qualities deemed necessary for 5G classification to dismiss those missing from your country's design, whether you are Indian or South Korean.

 

[kamaal]

AMCA is carrying what was learnt from lca mk1 and mk2. It is our plane and it'll serve our needs, we'll not be dependent on majority of parts on the west. Let it take 6-7 years of thorough development. AMCA will solve our problems, not some western gold plated jet. All we should be worried about is timeline of mk2.

 

[Spitfire9]

AMCA is carrying what was learnt from lca mk1 and mk2. It is our plane and it'll serve our needs, we'll not be dependent on majority of parts on the west. Let it take 6-7 years of thorough development. AMCA will solve our problems, not some western gold plated jet. All we should be worried about is timeline of mk2.

Like you I think AMCA will serve India's needs... eventually. Mk1 will do that but I would guess not until mid-2030's onwards. Who can say when exactly? India sets schedules for fighter developments, misses them, sets new schedules, misses those, too, and that goes on and on and on.

I'll tell you something, now that DFI's days are numbered. I used to work in an F1 team. The team once worked for over 60 hours (with occasional breaks) to get the new car finished so it would not miss the 747 freighter flight taking all the F1 cars to North America for the next race. I personally drove it to the airport and delivered it on time. It may astonish a lot of people that schedules can be met if people put in the effort required! And it may explain my irritation at endless delays in getting Indian fighter aircraft built and delivered.

PS I didn't actually drive the car to the airport - it was on the trailer behind my vehicle.

 

[BON PLAN]

Neither KF-21(no IWB) nor AMCA (no supercruise) meet basic 5G design criteria.. If South Korea describes KF-21,as 4.5 G, that's accurate. If India describes AMCA as 5G, that's not accurate.

I go along with you on KAAN being not being delivered in 2028 but I would not deem it impossible. I have the impression that when Turkiye sets out to do something, things get done.

Something you might be able to explain: if AMCA design was frozen months back, how come some change concerning stealth was reported a few days ago?

Agree.
I remember for all the 5G Lockeed Martin definition :

• Affordable
• Supercruise able
• At least agile as a F16
• with sensor fusion.

Note that F22 is short on affordability.
Note that F35 is short on super cruise, and even on agility it's not perfect.

As for now, no jet in the world is 5G, even the ones from Lockeed Martin itself ! funny isn't ?