Know Your 'Rafale'

[vampyrbladez]

I was talking about our navy,no extra order for scorpenes placed yet.
What's the deal?

Additional orders will be for Barracuda Class only AFAIK..........

 

[Wisemarko]

Yes, no point buying anything especially if any local production is offered, right? Only buy off-the-shelf products like Rafale, P-8, Apaches. Or better, buy Russian stuff that coast 50% more locally made than direct import (SU-30, T-90).

Also, always find faults by revisiting anecdotes from history. Conveniently forgetting that Indian governments were in deep a hole of Soviets and opposed everything American.

If you don’t know,
F-20 Tigershark was an amazing aircraft that was ahead of its time. Compared to F-16 it was cheaper yet carried the same weapons. But it was launched at a time when defense policies were being written by Jimmy Carter. Reagan opened up exports however it was too late to revive F-20. South Korea, Taiwan and many other nations were denied US weapons between 1975-1981. Unlike India, these nations persisted and today make world class weapons. Ching-Kuo and F-50 owe their success to Lockheed.

But you can enjoy amazing Indian defense production that is spearheaded by Russians and French- two nations that will NEVER import any Indian defense products/ components. Meanwhile 90% of Indian defense exports as of today is by US companies. Wonder why Russians and French could not do that despite winning large orders for last 7 decades.

The US government has been pushing India to place an order for their soon to be out of production F-21 aircraft also known as an F-16V fighter jet. F-21 has been pushed to India has an low-cost alternative which features F-35 technology in terms of avionics and sensors and will be exclusively Made, locally in India if it gets the deal for 114 units of fighter aircraft from the Indian air force. While there is no official figure out by the Indian budget for the tender to buy 114 fighter aircraft, but by judging by the recent sale of F-16V to the new customer it is expected that American fighters will have a much more hefty price tag, due to lack of exposure of American jets in IAF fleet. Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) filing rates given for the Lockheed Martin F-16V fighters to Bulgaria, stands at $1.67 billion for eight fighters in addition to a broad range of sensors, weapons, training devices, software, training, support, and spares. Since Bulgarian air force is predominately made of Russian Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-29, lack of exposure will mean an additional need for infrastructure, local tools, spares training of manpower and if same rates are factored in for Indian deal then the whole ecosystem to operate F-21 fleet by IAF will be close to $24 billion. It could have been little cheaper for IAF if it already operated any American build fighter aircraft since it would not have required to place separate orders for weapons and other ground support tools and even if India was an existing operator of older blocks of F-16s even then could have been over $17 billion. There is no data to back that TATA-LM developed F-21 fighter aircraft locally in India will be cheaper than F-16V produced at current Lockheed Martin facilities in the United States. Lockheed Martin wants to make its TATA-LM subsidiary to be major global supply chain of all F-16s operators which has potential to generate orders worth a few more billions and revenue for the country in tax collections, But, there is no data guarantee that the company will be getting more orders for aging F-16V from its current operators, most of them which are already making transaction to the latest F-35 offering from the same company. It is also a fact that F-16 aircraft being the second highest produced fighter aircraft in the history after Mig-21. there exists plenty of used F-16s around which will be mothballed to be used as spare support by other operators. While USAF plans to maintain a fleet of 300 F-16s till 2048, which has been peddled by TATA-LM in India as proof that fighter aircraft is technologically still relevant and will be in operation for next 30 years, it is also a fact that USAF has decided to maintain them due to budgetary problems with the F-35A program and mostly will limit them to flying in United States airbase only, due to pressure from local politicians who want to keep local supply line for the F-16s fleet running to keep local jobs
(REALITY FOR A THOUGHT??)FACTS FOR A THOUGHT?
In 90s also US was claiming big things by supplying Northrop F-20 Tigershark saying we will shift whole production line bla bla bla but in reality that was again a milking thing. India kept quite and went on with Mig-29 and mirage 2000. Many things have been changed in india Us relationships but something never changes
India will never ever buy that pathetic F-16. @BON PLAN @asianobserve @Indx TechStyle

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Yes, no point buying anything especially if any local production is offered, right? Only buy off-the-shelf products like Rafale, P-8, Apaches. Or better, buy Russian stuff that coast 50% more locally made than direct import (SU-30, T-90).

Also, always find faults by revisiting anecdotes from history. Conveniently forgetting that Indian governments were in deep a hole of Soviets and opposed everything American.

If you don’t know,
F-20 Tigershark was an amazing aircraft that was ahead of its time. Compared to F-16 it was cheaper yet carried the same weapons. But it was launched at a time when defense policies were being written by Jimmy Carter. Reagan opened up exports however it was too late to revive F-20. South Korea, Taiwan and many other nations were denied US weapons between 1975-1981. Unlike India, these nations persisted and today make world class weapons. Ching-Kuo and F-50 owe their success to Lockheed.

But you can enjoy amazing Indian defense production that is spearheaded by Russians and French- two nations that will NEVER import any Indian defense products/ components. Meanwhile 90% of Indian defense exports as of today is by US companies. Wonder why Russians and French could not do that despite winning large orders for last 7 decades.

Lamo. India is not south Korea Taiwan we have a very independent policies because of which US will not support india truly. Us likes to have nations which run and speak according to there likes only why the hell india would have bought that pathetic F-5 when you were giving F-16 to pakis in aid?
* i talk on the basis of FACTS. The fact is the import of defence equipments by Us is just just tiny tiny part of the offset which they give when we buy some weapons from them nothing is free let me remind you something france is also investing millions of $ in india because of OFFSET.
*Russia gave india bhramos. India nuclear design is based on Russian one. India su-30 mki is having more than 50% indigenously developed systems.
They are providing india there BEST systems be it s-400. Or nuclear subs on lease.
*india asked For thaad in 2010 US was like hmmmm hmmmmm and suddenly no.
*If india will not locally build facilities then it will be like a blind indian army fighting a war. Without spares produced from factories how india will survive in a war? If a su-30 tires have a broke down its indigenously developed replacement will not take much time. If a t-90 breaks down its indian that's the reason we pay extra as replacement will not take time.
*Russia - india collaboration in make in india is biggest indian PM. Our pm is in Russia now for economic forum. In which there are number of MOU in which Russia will develop spares for Russian equipments.
*Which is the biggest make in india deals let me remind you - bhramos barak - 8 AK-203 and Krivak/Talwar class stealth frigates, and production of at least 200 Kamov-226T utility helicopters in India + kaveri class subs.
*tell me of WHICH SINGLE TECHNOLOGY AMERICANS GAVE TOT?
*French gave 100% tot of there conventional subs to india.
* F-21 is as local as su-30mki. In F-21 there is no engine technology. No way to use Missiles like bhramos or Astra or nirbhaya. Btw mig-35 is being offered with 100% tot including engine.
*India itself is BIG DEFENCE MARKET if we produce make in india system just for ourselves then also this will create jobs for thousands. Russia is working with Indian private companies to build capabilities. US is best in lip service that's it. This partnership that but nothing on ground. This is the main reason why india always seek a different partner because US is a super power for there gains they can throw india in front of a train in no TIME. just like how they are updating Pakistani F-16 increases there UP time. Or just by forcing and trying to come into inda bilateral matters hurting our sovereignty just to gain Pakistani trust to make sure your interests stays safe in Afghanistan.

 

[Wisemarko]

You are writing as if you are american....
Ask Israeli.... France gave a full access to Israelis to adapt laser guider bombs to M2000 during Kargil. And ask israeli where come the know how to built their nuclear missiles (Dassault MD620) and nuc warheads (french secret assistance).
French products decades behind US products... Same than when Admiral Rickover, the father of the USN deterrence subs, spoke about the french effort to built SLBM and nuclear subs: "they will never succed". We did it !
Our Rafale won technically in South Korea, but it's only the US pressures not the US weapons quality that prevail.
AESA radar : first were Japan, next US, and third France.
Main Battle tank : our Leclerc is a gen ahead of Abrams.
Deterrence : our M51 is on par with Trident. Our ASMP A has nos counterpart in the US arsenal.
Meteor, not a french product, but a european one (with french seeker !) smashed AMRAAM even D variant.
etc...
We only have a disadvantage : we are 7th smaller than USA. That's all.

F35... even the sole tier one partner, GB, was deny to developp its engine ! The partners are only allowed to give money... That's why GB, ITaly, Netherlands will NEVER purchase the qty intended at the beginning.
F21 is now a old horse. a kind of Sopwith Camel for the WW2....

The US are too proud. They live in the nostalgia of the cold war time. They are no more the world incontestable leader, technically and politically.

Lol..see ya when you surrender en masse next time with your “superior” weapons.

Making a weapon 20 years later and to claim it “superior” is a nice way to sell to customers. But it’s not a sound plan when conflict begins.

AMRAAMs are outranging French MICA for last 20 years! Now Meteor showed up and yet is barely operational, while US has moved on to AIM-260.

US made AESA is operational since 1997 in F-22, French got there 2 years ago! But hey it’s le superior.. well, it better be because US will move on the next level.

Abrahams have no match for what its design philosophy is. And they are old. It decimated Iraqi T-72s way back in 1991 when LeClercs were ...........wait for this....... “in development”

No one cares about ASMP because no one would send an aircraft to enemy loaded with a nuke weapon anymore. Minuteman is good enough.

Drones—- I don’t want to even start. French are enjoying Predators.

French are playing catch up in every field, including on how make wine. That’s ok. You are not a representation of France so whatever.

 

[Deathstar]

Lol..see ya when you surrender en masse next time with your “superior” weapons.

Making a weapon 10-15 years later and to claim it “superior” is a nice way to sell to customers. But it’s not a sound plan when conflict begins.

AMRAAMs are outranging French MICA for last 20 years! Now Meteor showed up and yet is barely operational, while US has moved on to AIM-260.

US made AESA is operational since 1997 in F-22, French got there 2 years ago! But hey it’s le superior.. well, it better be because US will move on the next level.

Abrahams have no match for what its design philosophy is. And they are old. It decimated Iraqi T-72s in 1991 when LeClercs were ...........wait for this....... “in development”

Drones—- I don’t want to even start.

French are playing catch up in every field, including on how make wine. That’s ok. You are not a representation of France so whatever.

Everyone agees that US is far ahead in technology but the problem is they start mixing politics with the military sales like towing the foreign policy , US interests are supreme, sudden sanctions on military deals eg Turkey F35 program, denial of spare parts when in need.
US denied us use of GPS during 1999 Kargil wat , sanctioned us heavily post nuke tests. , Forced soviet union to deny us cryo tech etc etc
Russian and French weapon systems might be inferior to their American counterparts but are atleast free of any restrictions and compulsions.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Lol..see ya when you surrender en masse next time with your “superior” weapons.

Making a weapon 20 years later and to claim it “superior” is a nice way to sell to customers. But it’s not a sound plan when conflict begins.

AMRAAMs are outranging French MICA for last 20 years! Now Meteor showed up and yet is barely operational, while US has moved on to AIM-260.

US made AESA is operational since 1997 in F-22, French got there 2 years ago! But hey it’s le superior.. well, it better be because US will move on the next level.

Abrahams have no match for what its design philosophy is. And they are old. It decimated Iraqi T-72s way back in 1991 when LeClercs were ...........wait for this....... “in development”

No one cares about ASMP because no one would send an aircraft to enemy loaded with a nuke weapon anymore. Minuteman is good enough.

Drones—- I don’t want to even start. French are enjoying Predators.

French are playing catch up in every field, including on how make wine. That’s ok. You are not a representation of France so whatever.

India was under deep hole with soviets after we were stabbed in heart in UN and Chinese Pakistan US + British nexus was to dangerous for india. Soviets helped india to break Pakistan and kept foreign powers away and we had our gains. Nothing wrong in that i guess Americans should have supported india but they never cared about 70k women who were getting raped in east Bangladesh they were busy in updating Pakistan F-104A. Then F-16 in aid.
*no one is bad or good. Everyone have there own interests now Americans also sell weapons to kings of Saudi UAE and all who kills innocent in yamen.
So there is no need to take high moral ground. Siding with soviets was beneficial for india. That's our gain. For years india was considered a bogeyman who did nuclear test and shit.
*there is no place for ideologies and shit in power driven world. India went to UN and thought we are democracy bla bla super powers will support us. But un made it a choke point for india forever. IT WAS IN 1972 after because of Pakistani defeat simla agreement was singed and all matters between india and Pakistan become bilateral.
*in reality because of india non alliance thing American and British from 60s were pissed that how this third world poverty poster boy nation spoke against Us.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Delete.............................

 

[Frontrunner]

Snaps of first rafale in indian colours!!!.... Man!!! Wht sheen!! ....

 

[WolfPack86]

@Dassault_OnAir Rafale for @IAF_MCC snapped by Cedric Guere

 

[WolfPack86]

More snaps of Rafale in Indian Colours from Cedric Guere

 

[Wisemarko]

Lamo. India is not south Korea Taiwan we have a very independent policies because of which US will not support india truly. Us likes to have nations which run and speak according to there likes only why the hell india would have bought that pathetic F-5 when you were giving F-16 to pakis in aid?
* i talk on the basis of FACTS. The fact is the import of defence equipments by Us is just just tiny tiny part of the offset which they give when we buy some weapons from them nothing is free let me remind you something france is also investing millions of $ in india because of OFFSET.
*Russia gave india bhramos. India nuclear design is based on Russian one. India su-30 mki is having more than 50% indigenously developed systems.
They are providing india there BEST systems be it s-400. Or nuclear subs on lease.
*india asked For thaad in 2010 US was like hmmmm hmmmmm and suddenly no.
*If india will not locally build facilities then it will be like a blind indian army fighting a war. Without spares produced from factories how india will survive in a war? If a su-30 tires have a broke down its indigenously developed replacement will not take much time. If a t-90 breaks down its indian that's the reason we pay extra as replacement will not take time.
*Russia - india collaboration in make in india is biggest indian PM. Our pm is in Russia now for economic forum. In which there are number of MOU in which Russia will develop spares for Russian equipments.
*Which is the biggest make in india deals let me remind you - bhramos barak - 8 AK-203 and Krivak/Talwar class stealth frigates, and production of at least 200 Kamov-226T utility helicopters in India + kaveri class subs.
*tell me of WHICH SINGLE TECHNOLOGY AMERICANS GAVE TOT?
*French gave 100% tot of there conventional subs to india.
* F-21 is as local as su-30mki. In F-21 there is no engine technology. No way to use Missiles like bhramos or Astra or nirbhaya. Btw mig-35 is being offered with 100% tot including engine.
*India itself is BIG DEFENCE MARKET if we produce make in india system just for ourselves then also this will create jobs for thousands. Russia is working with Indian private companies to build capabilities. US is best in lip service that's it. This partnership that but nothing on ground. This is the main reason why india always seek a different partner because US is a super power for there gains they can throw india in front of a train in no TIME. just like how they are updating Pakistani F-16 increases there UP time. Or just by forcing and trying to come into inda bilateral matters hurting our sovereignty just to gain Pakistani trust to make sure your interests stays safe in Afghanistan.

You blabber without knowledge hence I will stop here and not respond.

You say French gave you 100% ToT for submarines.. lol. So can you make more of Scorpene on your own? NO. They gave you fine assembly knowledge of their systems at outrageous cost.

SU-30MKI: only 30% indigenous by value. 50 by volume. Even nuts and bolts come from Russia. Engine assembly is indeed in India- can you make engine on your own from that ? Nope.. so what’s ToT BS is all about? It is to fool fanboys like you. Russians don’t by a squat from India, they could have easily done offsets over last 70 years but they did not. read this:
https://www.defensenews.com/industr...s-may-shut-down-toppling-400-local-suppliers/

 

[Wisemarko]

India was under deep hole with soviets after we were stabbed in heart in UN and Chinese Pakistan US + British nexus was to dangerous for india. Soviets helped india to break Pakistan and kept foreign powers away and we had our gains. Nothing wrong in that i guess Americans should have supported india but they never cared about 70k women who were getting raped in east Bangladesh they were busy in updating Pakistan F-104A. Then F-16 in aid.
*no one is bad or good. Everyone have there own interests now Americans also sell weapons to kings of Saudi UAE and all who kills innocent in yamen.
So there is no need to take high moral ground. Siding with soviets was beneficial for india. That's our gain. For years india was considered a bogeyman who did nuclear test and shit.
*there is no place for ideologies and shit in power driven world. India went to UN and thought we are democracy bla bla super powers will support us. But un made it a choke point for india forever. IT WAS IN 1972 after because of Pakistani defeat simla agreement was singed and all matters between india and Pakistan become bilateral.
*in reality because of india non alliance thing American and British from 60s were pissed that how this third world poverty poster boy nation spoke against Us.

Agreed. Few sore points. Although you got one thing wrong- in 1962 war, US offered India weapons and US forces- India refused. Don’t forget that Russians did not side with India in the only war India lost.

 

[Wisemarko]

Everyone agees that US is far ahead in technology but the problem is they start mixing politics with the military sales like towing the foreign policy , US interests are supreme, sudden sanctions on military deals eg Turkey F35 program, denial of spare parts when in need.
US denied us use of GPS during 1999 Kargil wat , sanctioned us heavily post nuke tests. , Forced soviet union to deny us cryo tech etc etc
Russian and French weapon systems might be inferior to their American counterparts but are atleast free of any restrictions and compulsions.

Agreed with US policy blunders.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Agreed. Few sore points. Although you got one thing wrong- in 1962 war, US offered India weapons and US forces- India refused. Don’t forget that Russians did not side with India in the only war India lost.

You blabber without knowledge hence I will stop here and not respond.

You say French gave you 100% ToT for submarines.. lol. So can you make more of Scorpene on your own? NO. They gave you fine assembly knowledge of their systems at outrageous cost.

SU-30MKI: only 30% indigenous by value. 50 by volume. Even nuts and bolts come from Russia. Engine assembly is indeed in India- can you make engine on your own from that ? Nope.. so what’s ToT BS is all about? It is to fool fanboys like you. Russians don’t by a squat from India, they could have easily done offsets over last 70 years but they did not. read this:
https://www.defensenews.com/industr...s-may-shut-down-toppling-400-local-suppliers/

I'm no one's fan boy.https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.econ...ri-to-the-nation/amp_articleshow/62062660.cms ( read this) india do have capability to overhaul su-30s engines i cannot find the link for now but after rise of make in india program HAL chief said more they have been able to achieve more than 50 % indigenous parts. Indian Air Force Very Likely To Order 40 More Sukhoi Su-30 MKI Jets From HAL As Jaguar Engine Upgrade Plan Dies.
*Again your lies US never send there troops or forces just small weapons aid which made no difference in real life. And in 1962 india had pacifist leaders from colonial rule who were like why to keep army police is enough sign water treaty with Pakistan. Hindi-chini bhai bhai (india - china brothers) non the less after all politicians got wake up call. And provide soldiers rifles other than bolt action. As india started to build it's capabilities Chinese stayed away in 1987 they went back and in 1967 too. It was after 1965 India-Pakistan war when india started relationship with soviets union because of biased decisions of US and UK against india. So if we had no relationship with them 1960 why they would have taken our sides? India had relationship with Britain.
If 400 factories of su-30 are closing they are closing because of no orders are given to HAL who used to be leading manufacturer of jets and all in india. But new orders will be given soon.
*india works on strategic model in which companies of both the nation's work together to build things just like AK-203. Kalvari class is build on strategic model.
*btw in 1997 when india did nuclear test indian prime Minister send a letter to bill Clinton saying that india did these tests for Chinese only so he should understand his concerns. And Bill Clinton being angry unofficially leaked those letters lamo.
*India is again issued RFI for under this same strategic model program for building more advanced subs called project 75i.

 

[BON PLAN]

Ha..... Saying like you have open ground bureaucracy.
And man, are you not charging for heli engines?
Other countries too charge,what's the difference.
I want to say we got many things from Russia as well as France and add Israel too.
Time has came to stand on our own feet.
I don't see merit in buying more rafale or to say scorpenes if no extra help is coming on NEW technology front.
Why to buy more rafale? If no help is going to be given on our Kaveri.
Better to invest that MUCH money on Tejas mk-2 and homegrown submarines.
And you wanted bet with me na, let's see if navy cancel p-75i and go for scorpenes.

I never say cancelling P75I. I bet there will be another batch of Scorpene.

 

[BON PLAN]

F-20 Tigershark was an amazing aircraft that was ahead of its time. Compared to F-16 it was cheaper yet carried the same weapons.

NO.
F20 was lighter than F16. Engine was F404 when F16 is F100/F110 powered. It has shorter range, shorter load,
The price difference was too low to justify a new fighter in the US arsenal.

 

[BON PLAN]

Lol..see ya when you surrender en masse next time with your “superior” weapons.

Making a weapon 20 years later and to claim it “superior” is a nice way to sell to customers. But it’s not a sound plan when conflict begins.

AMRAAMs are outranging French MICA for last 20 years! Now Meteor showed up and yet is barely operational, while US has moved on to AIM-260.

US made AESA is operational since 1997 in F-22, French got there 2 years ago! But hey it’s le superior.. well, it better be because US will move on the next level.

Abrahams have no match for what its design philosophy is. And they are old. It decimated Iraqi T-72s way back in 1991 when LeClercs were ...........wait for this....... “in development”

No one cares about ASMP because no one would send an aircraft to enemy loaded with a nuke weapon anymore. Minuteman is good enough.

Drones—- I don’t want to even start. French are enjoying Predators.

French are playing catch up in every field, including on how make wine. That’s ok. You are not a representation of France so whatever.

we loose against germany in 1940. The great America loose against Vietnam : 1- 1 ball in the center.

MICA proved range is 67km (a taiwanese M2000 shoot against a flying target). What about AMRAAM? Not to speak of Pk.... AMRAAM pk is just over 50%. Even your AIM9X can't destroy a old russian fighter in Syria (FH18 failed to)

"No cares about ASMP because no one would send an aircraft to enemy loaded witha nuke"... You're wrong. the american stealthy goose will be equipped by free fall B61 ! FREE FALL in the 21th century !!!!

You want to explain us how to produce wine ? You are really an idiot. As 95% of the american people : too average. You don't know France but you image us with a french baguette bread under one arm, a bottle of wine under the second and the beret on the head.

 

[BON PLAN]

You blabber without knowledge hence I will stop here and not respond.

You say French gave you 100% ToT for submarines.. lol. So can you make more of Scorpene on your own? NO. They gave you fine assembly knowledge of their systems at outrageous cost.

SU-30MKI: only 30% indigenous by value. 50 by volume. Even nuts and bolts come from Russia. Engine assembly is indeed in India- can you make engine on your own from that ? Nope.. so what’s ToT BS is all about? It is to fool fanboys like you. Russians don’t by a squat from India, they could have easily done offsets over last 70 years but they did not. read this:
https://www.defensenews.com/industr...s-may-shut-down-toppling-400-local-suppliers/

USA uber alles !!!!
You are like your new president : blind and idiot. the fall of the US....

 

[asianobserve]

Lol..see ya when you surrender en masse next time with your “superior” weapons.

Making a weapon 20 years later and to claim it “superior” is a nice way to sell to customers. But it’s not a sound plan when conflict begins.

AMRAAMs are outranging French MICA for last 20 years! Now Meteor showed up and yet is barely operational, while US has moved on to AIM-260.

US made AESA is operational since 1997 in F-22, French got there 2 years ago! But hey it’s le superior.. well, it better be because US will move on the next level.

Abrahams have no match for what its design philosophy is. And they are old. It decimated Iraqi T-72s way back in 1991 when LeClercs were ...........wait for this....... “in development”

No one cares about ASMP because no one would send an aircraft to enemy loaded with a nuke weapon anymore. Minuteman is good enough.

Drones—- I don’t want to even start. French are enjoying Predators.

French are playing catch up in every field, including on how make wine. That’s ok. You are not a representation of France so whatever.

LMAO! Spot on! Some people just don't know where there head and feet are...

 

[asianobserve]

Everyone agees that US is far ahead in technology but the problem is they start mixing politics with the military sales like towing the foreign policy , US interests are supreme, sudden sanctions on military deals eg Turkey F35 program,

Let's pretend India is the superpower znd msin manufzcturer of F-35 (let's call it AMCA). And Turkey is supposed to be your long time ally until crazy Erdogan came out. Now, suppose Turkey all of a sudden say it will buy Chinese SAM and bring in Chinese technicians to Turkish air bases, what would you do? Would you still supply Turkey with F-35s knowing that Chinese radars under Turkey and Chinese technicians can regularly observe the electronic/radar profile of Turkish F-35?