Know Your 'Rafale'

dineshchaturvedi

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2009
Messages
537
Likes
112
Country flag
Rafale jets coming to India! IAF to receive first batch of French fighters in September




Indian Air Force (IAF) is getting ready to receive the first batch of four `Rafale’ fighter aircraft from Dassault Aviation in France next month.

These state-of-the-art Rafale fighter planes are twin-engine multi-role fighter aircraft, nuclear-capable and can engage in both air-to-air and air-to-ground attacks. After receiving these combat aircraft equipped with Meteor missile, SCALP ground attack missiles with a range of up to 300 Kms will undergo extensive trials before being formally inducted in the service in 2020. These aircraft are also fitted with AESA radar, SPECTRA Electronic Warfare System and IRST System.


IAF pilots and ground crews are undergoing extensive training in France and will test these machines intensively for 1,500 hours for validating the specifications requested by India. These new machines will be based at Ambala Airbase in ‘Golden Arrows’ 17 Squadron which is closer to the Western border with Pakistan. The Ambala Airbase is also home to the Jaguars, which due to their rapid deployment capabilities is deployed to deal with incidents from Pakistan.

The other squadron of the Rafale fighters are expected to be based out of Hashimara, West Bengal and this will be in an effort to tackle any incidents coming from China, according to sources.

The pilots of the IAF have had an opportunity to fly these aircraft at the recently concluded Garuda joint Air Force exercise, where the French side had sent in Rafale and Mirage aircraft for the war games. Even during Ex-Varuna joint naval exercise, The French side had sent in Rafale aircraft which were in a combat drill with Indian Navy’s Russian MiG-29 K fighter machines.

These four aircraft are being delivered in September to the IAF as per the contract and the whole order of 36 fighter jets (two squadrons) will be concluded in the next two years. The contract for 36 fighter jets was inked in September 2016, with the French government and Dassault Aviation for around Euro 7.8 billion.

Link: https://www.financialexpress.com/de...atch-of-french-fighters-in-september/1674248/
The headline is misleading, they are only getting them in France in September but they will arrive in India in March 2020 only.
 

mayfair

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2010
Messages
6,032
Likes
13,110
Not sure for France.
After all we gave missile and nux tech to israel.
We are giving knowledge to Brazil to built a nuc sub.
why not helping you on engine tech ? Not the last gen, but why not M53 tech ?
That is a question you should ask the French government and Saffran..

So far there are no indications that France has or will transfer truly sensitive tech to India- case in point Scorpene submarines.

Secondly, as the Kaveri collaboration with Saffran shows, their solution is to replace Kabini core with the M88 core, no indications whatsoever that any sought-after tech on engine fabrication and design is being handed over or even offered.
 

AUSTERLITZ

Regular Member
Joined
May 25, 2013
Messages
484
Likes
1,746
Country flag
That is a question you should ask the French government and Saffran..

So far there are no indications that France has or will transfer truly sensitive tech to India- case in point Scorpene submarines.

Secondly, as the Kaveri collaboration with Saffran shows, their solution is to replace Kabini core with the M88 core, no indications whatsoever that any sought-after tech on engine fabrication and design is being handed over or even offered.
For even partial tech you need big orders.114 order might do it.But do not expect engine tech from anybody,its just how the industry works.They might help you partially on engines,but ultimately you have to invest a lot on and build it yourself.The good thing is that we are aiming for western standard engines rather than russian types which the chinese are basing themselves on.
The french strategic partenership works well for us,its hassle free with no strings,and good western standard tech to access.Only hiccup is things are pricey due to limited production numbers,but a growing economy can handle that for us.Infact if amca gets into trouble our next gen fighter should be the franco german one.
 

lcafanboy

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2013
Messages
5,871
Likes
37,820
Country flag
Solid proof of more than 200 Rafales coming to India and set up of a complete aeronautic industry in India with huge investment from France.
Courtesy @Picdelamirand-oil from SRF

A year ago I published the translation of an internal document from Dassault and this seems premonitory to me today. The publication begins there:
MMRCA 2.0 - Update and discussion
But I'm going to republish it in a more compact way here.

The success of the Rafale in India is part of the Make in India initiative launched by Prime Minister Naranda Modi. From this contractual obligation, we make a strategic partnership with ambitious objectives: obtain new Rafale orders, gain competitiveness in business aviation, multiply projects in high technology. Our plant in Nagpur, in the centre of the country, will soon produce Falcon 2000 parts and sub-assemblies, then Rafale. We are creating a structure dedicated to civil and military engineering works in the Silicon Valley of Pune, near Bombay. We are studying R&D projects with the Indian Ministry of Defence. As you will read in the pages of this Special Make in India magazine, the members of the management committee, meeting in New Delhi in April, enthusiastically commit themselves to do everything possible to carry out, with their teams, these large-scale projects. I count on you as I count on them.

The main paragraphs are
  • Military support
  • Produce in India
  • A methodical quality approach
  • The local economic fabric in support
  • Close digital cooperation
  • India's land of conquest for the Falcons
  • Pilot in India a challenge for programme managers
  • Working in India a rewarding opportunity
  • Optimized digital monitoring in production
  • Development of intelligent air systems
With a futures market of 200 Rafale and production costs that place us at the heart of competition in the global civil market, the potential offered by India are as many reasons for us to succeed with our Make in India and to make our establishment in this country a complete success.

Training: accompanying our Indian partners

For the Indian government, Skill India, i.e. local education, is a necessary challenge for the country's economic development. For us and for the success of Make in India, it is therefore essential to accompany our customer by an adapted training.

Bruno Penot, head of the DGSM's training department, explains that "this programme could involve setting up an aeronautics department within an existing local school, the Governement Industrial Technical Institute (ITI), located in the Nagpur region, to train companions and technicians.

Today, the new challenge for our company is to develop an aeronautical professional baccalaureate program, to provide the DRAL joint venture with qualified and quality personnel. This ambitious project is perfectly in line with our client's industrial policy.

Produce in India

We are developing an aeronautical industrial sector in India to manufacture at the best cost, with the quality requirements expected by our civil and military customers, our Falcons 2000 as well as Rafale subassemblies and payload (pylons, pendular tanks).

Dedicated factory.

An aeronautical park, the Dhirubhai Ambani Aerospace park, located on the international airport of nagpur, will now host, on a site of 25 hectares, Dassault Reliance Aerospace Limited (DRAL) but also all our partners, including French SMEs which come to accompany the development of this industrial sector.
The new plant will start by assembling the Falcon 2000. The primary parts, components of these assemblies, will be subcontracted to Indian industry.

Stages of the project

Manufacturing transfers are organized in four stages.

The initial stage involves the assembly of the T1 section of the Falcon 2000 and its sub-assemblies, as well as sub-assemblies of the Rafale's moving parts, such as engine housings and control surfaces.

An initial Indian team of four production managers was trained in our methods in Biarritz for six months. A dozen companions have also received intensive training in assembly processes, provided in France by CODIFOR.

In the second quarter of 2019, a much larger building will allow the assembly of the T1 and T2 sections, then the splicing of the T12.
In the third quarter, production of the Rafale control surfaces will start in Nagpur.

The next stage is scheduled for the end of 2019 with the assembly of the horizontal plane, an additional section of the Falcon 2000 and the windscreens and skylights of the Rafale.

At the end of 2020, the third stage will begin. It will cover the junction of the fuselage sections, the layout (mattress assembly, cabin sealing, fluid and electrical circuit assembly) and the general assembly, the runway and the take off from Nagpur.

Finally, the last stage will begin in 2022 with the robotic assembly of the wings and the assembly of sections including oil tanks.
The Nagpur site ramp-up will see the construction of new buildings, in particular a kerosene test facility, paint facilities and a run-up area.

Local subcontracting partners

In parallel, the qualification of the first Indian suppliers was initiated by the purchasing and total quality departments (DGA and DGQT). Several companies, such as Mahindra, LMW, Maini and TAL, will produce protected and painted metal parts , which will then be assembled in Nagpur. New partners are being sought to expand this network.

The first assembly tools are also being manufactured by Indian subcontractors such as Hemkund, TAL, Alpha Tocol or Assystem India.
Essential to the success of our project, the training of companions began in France to strengthen their aeronautical skills. A partnership with Indian academic institutions is also under study.

Finally, DRAL's information system will comply with our standards. The technical data will be managed with Dassault systems software, such as 3DExperience, and will be operated with SAP.

Specific payloads branch

A specific industrial sector for payloads is developing in cooperation with the company DEFSYS, based in Gurgaon, near New Delhi.

In 2018, it will assemble the CRB 201 pylon and the ADP 170 adapter for the respective payloads of 2000-litre tank and MICA intercept and air combat missiles under the Rafale wing, using kits supplied by Dassault Aviation, before producing them entirely, from 2019, with primary parts made by Indian companies.

New transfers for the manufacture of drop tanks are being implemented, with the active support of the French company AEds.

Our Directorates-General, the Programme Directorates and the Legal and Insurance Directorates are mobilised. They contribute to the success of the project, in cooperation with the general management of industrial operations, Company industrial pilot of the Make in India, with the aim of the first take-off of the Falcon 2000 from Nagpur and, one day, that of the first Rafale manufactured in India.

India has long been recognized as a centre of high competence in IT development. As part of Make in India, part of the development sub-contracting, usually awarded to French companies, has been entrusted to the Indians.
[....]
As with software development, some traditional engineering work will be carried out by Indian companies.
An engineering centre is under study. Its mission will be to ensure local developments, such as the design of structural elements, support for production activities or the development of support systems.

The challenge for the DGSI consists in making all the tools and Company reference systems available to Indian subcontractors and Dassault Aviation personnel in charge of supervising them, in an environment controlled and secured by us.

The possibility of working in collaborative mode in India, as if the engineering centre were in Saint-Cloud, will mark the success of this project. It involves the establishment of a dedicated and efficient France-India gridded network, with an infrastructure managed from Saint-Cloud.

Finally, the objective is to deliver verified aircraft and products to customers that fully comply with their specifications.
For the programme directorates, this translates into four major challenges.
  • Use the execution of the 36 Indian Rafales contract to promote transfer scenarios in the fields of production, but also logistical support and studies in order to achieve the local manufacturing transfer rates necessary to obtain future contracts.
  • To associate Dassault Aviation, its subcontractors and its Indian partners through formal and rigorous processes of methodological transfers.
  • Meet deadlines in this new remote environment.
  • Controlling costs, seeking competitive gains to obtain a return on the major investments made.
Means are implemented to manage the new Franco-Indian context and control the risks.
[......]
The experience gained will enable us to implement the expectations of the Make in India of future Indian Rafale contracts.
 

WolfPack86

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2015
Messages
10,559
Likes
16,993
Country flag
#ITI_Nagpur students to learn to assemble #Rafalejets

(Rafale to be selected for MMRCA-2?)

.

Students ofthe Industrial Training Institute (ITI) here in Maharashtra are all set to get a chance to learn how to assemble and fit body parts of the Rafale and Falcon aircraft, an official said on Tuesday.

The France-based Dassault Aviation, manufacturer of Rafale fighter jets, signed an agreement with the government- run ITI Nagpur last month for starting an 'Aeronautical Structure and Equipment Fitter' course at the institute.

"The students will get training in the assembly of aerostructure, cockpit fitting, wings fitting and body structure fitting of Falcon and Rafale aircraft at the DRAL unit here," ITI's principal Hemant Aaware told PTI.

The Dassault Reliance Aerospace Limited (DRAL), a joint venture between Dassault Aviation and Reliance Group, has a facility in MIHAN (Multi-modal International Cargo Hub and Airport at Nagpur) for the assembling of Falcon 2000 passenger planes and parts of Rafale jet.

Aaware said before this new programme, the ITI did not have any aviation-related course.

"During an industry-academic interaction, we requested DRAL to start an aviation-related course at ITI," he said.

The French aviation company and the ITI have jointly designed the syllabus of the two-year course, he said.

A government resolution was issued last Friday for starting the course at the ITI here.

"We are planning to start the course this year itself with two batches of 21 students each in 2019-20. Besides, there will be one batch of 21 students in 2020-21 and two batches of 21 students each in 2021-22. There will be a total intake of 105 students for the course," Aaware added.
https://www.facebook.com/pg/TeamAMCA/photos/?ref=page_internal
 

BON PLAN

-*-
Contributor
Joined
Dec 24, 2015
Messages
6,507
Likes
7,209
Country flag
Great. Now will the French walk the talk. Believe me, it will be a mutually beneficial relationship. France gains a large market and could possibly increase Rafale exports to other countries. IAF professionalism is acknowledged by many countries and its adoption of the Rafale can influence their buying behaviour. Many Indians believe that France is possibly the only serious competitor to the US in high technology weapons and the French can develop a capable stealth fighter to rival the F35.Funding seems to be France's main problem. That is why the large Indian aerospace market can make a significant difference.

It is now up to France to make good its promises. It will not be disappointed.
The developpment of a fighter engine is hard (somme of the technology involved are among the most difficult to master), long (10 years) and cost a lot. The main problem with India, as far as the news I have are right, is that you change your mind too often. See Kaveri : how many times India has changed of position? How many times India entered in negociation with Snecma, RR, the russian, now Safran ? To built a new engine anyone need a strong commitment for 10 years.
 

Tridev123

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2018
Messages
898
Likes
3,160
Country flag
The developpment of a fighter engine is hard (somme of the technology involved are among the most difficult to master), long (10 years) and cost a lot. The main problem with India, as far as the news I have are right, is that you change your mind too often. See Kaveri : how many times India has changed of position? How many times India entered in negociation with Snecma, RR, the russian, now Safran ? To built a new engine anyone need a strong commitment for 10 years.
I agree jet engine turbofan development is complicated and one needs long term vision and commitment. But let's not make the issue too complex and difficult. More sensitive technologies have been exchanged between nations. The US transferred nuclear bomb making technology to UK(I am not sure whether France was also a beneficiary) after the Second World War and Russia(Soviet Union) transferred the same to the Chinese later. Nuclear bomb technology is way more sensitive than aero engine technology.

The other relevant point is that India is not a novice in Gas turbine engine technology. The GTRE has been carrying out research on high output aero engines for about 2 decades and the HAL has been manufacturing Russian jet engines under license for decades. I agree many core technologies were not shared by Russia. But the point is that India has quite an advanced jet engine technology base. The timeliness of a decade quoted by France for India to assimilate technology seems excessive. GTRE has designed a fairly good jet engine but lags behind in certain areas for which they require help. Many Indian experts have assessed that in case outside technical assistance is available we can perfect the Kaveri engine in about 5 yrs.

It depends on the willingness of the technical consultant to share technology in the shortest possible time frame. You will be surprised how quickly GTRE absorbs the technology.

The Brahmos supersonic cruise missile project is a shining example of a successful joint venture. If we can do it with Russia we can also do it with others. It only requires a strong political will to back commitments. A Mach 3 cruise missile is a complex piece of technology. The
 

BON PLAN

-*-
Contributor
Joined
Dec 24, 2015
Messages
6,507
Likes
7,209
Country flag
More sensitive technologies have been exchanged between nations. The US transferred nuclear bomb making technology to UK(I am not sure whether France was also a beneficiary) after the Second World War and Russia(Soviet Union) transferred the same to the Chinese later. Nuclear bomb technology is way more sensitive than aero engine technology.
It was between then strong political and doctrinal ally, during the cold war.
The situation is then very different.

About France nuc : we developped alone the A bomb (before the WW2 we were the most advanced in these field, as in the radar tech for exemple...). For H bomb we received some US help in a very strange manner : some of our main specialists were authorised to ask some questions to US specialists. The agreement was just that the US guys answers was "YES" or "NO". It just help not to follow a dead way, among the differents on the drawing board. It help to shorten by some months our first H bomb.
 

tarunraju

Sanathan Pepe
Mod
Joined
Sep 18, 2009
Messages
9,080
Likes
40,077
Country flag
It's happening. 36 additional fly-away Rafales on the table.

https://zeenews.india.com/india/ind...fale-jets-likely-to-be-discussed-2230638.html

The BJP has two ways to pull this off without trouble from the opposition:
  • It will throw a big lollypop at HAL, something like 72 additional Su-30MKI kits, and perhaps even a sizable Tejas-1A order (36-54 airframes). So when the opposition starts crying "what about HAL and its job-losses?" HAL will tell them that they're swamped for the next 4 years, and that it doesn't care about the additional imported Rafales
  • Pakistan is trying to pull off something to appease its domestic audience, a terrorist attack in India, or a surprise gift from the Chinese, such as Shenyang J-17, Su-35, or maybe even some understanding on a slightly stripped-down FC-31 in response to India's Rafale purchase. This will give BJP enough justification to bulldoze a 36-unit repeat order
If they reach an understanding today, the deal will be inked in December, after the state elections in Maharashtra and Haryana.
 

Immanuel

Senior Member
Joined
May 16, 2011
Messages
3,600
Likes
7,562
Country flag
It's happening. 36 additional fly-away Rafales on the table.

https://zeenews.india.com/india/ind...fale-jets-likely-to-be-discussed-2230638.html

The BJP has two ways to pull this off without trouble from the opposition:
  • It will throw a big lollypop at HAL, something like 72 additional Su-30MKI kits, and perhaps even a sizable Tejas-1A order (36-54 airframes). So when the opposition starts crying "what about HAL and its job-losses?" HAL will tell them that they're swamped for the next 4 years, and that it doesn't care about the additional imported Rafales
  • Pakistan is trying to pull off something to appease its domestic audience, a terrorist attack in India, or a surprise gift from the Chinese, such as Shenyang J-17, Su-35, or maybe even some understanding on a slightly stripped-down FC-31 in response to India's Rafale purchase. This will give BJP enough justification to bulldoze a 36-unit repeat order
If they reach an understanding today, the deal will be inked in December, after the state elections in Maharashtra and Haryana.
Well 36-54 more Rafales off the shelf is perfectly fine but the eventual MMRCA 2.0 tender should be scrapped as it's nothing but a waste of time. 90-100 Rafale should be used as a perfect replacement for the Jaguar. While a local assembly line is great but it would jack up the price per unit if we demand more TOT.

Rest of the orders should indeed be 72 upgraded Super MKI with Brahmos ability from the get go (no making old ones anymore)

Forget the MK-1A, instead convert order to 80 Tejas SPORT trainers (dual role) followed by a giant fat order of MK-2 at least 15-20 squadrons to replace Mig-27s, Mirages, Mig-29s.

Convert IOC and FOC Tejas MK-1 sqd to SPORT versions during MLU. These dual role jets can be used as a National air guard to be the first responders while providing operational LIFT training to pilots.

Upgrade all MKI to super MKI
 

aditya10r

Mera Bharat mahan
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2016
Messages
5,724
Likes
11,637
Country flag
Well 36-54 more Rafales off the shelf is perfectly fine but the eventual MMRCA 2.0 tender should be scrapped as it's nothing but a waste of time. 90-100 Rafale should be used as a perfect replacement for the Jaguar. While a local assembly line is great but it would jack up the price per unit if we demand more TOT.

Rest of the orders should indeed be 72 upgraded Super MKI with Brahmos ability from the get go (no making old ones anymore)

Forget the MK-1A, instead convert order to 80 Tejas SPORT trainers (dual role) followed by a giant fat order of MK-2 at least 15-20 squadrons to replace Mig-27s, Mirages, Mig-29s.

Convert IOC and FOC Tejas MK-1 sqd to SPORT versions during MLU. These dual role jets can be used as a National air guard to be the first responders while providing operational LIFT training to pilots.

Upgrade all MKI to super MKI
I think best replacement for jaguar would be TEJAS.Cheap rugged reliable can clock hell lot of sorties lower turn around time.
Need of the hour is mk1a and in 6-8 years MK2 in huge numbers to fill up the gap.
Let's be realistic,Rafale is a great plane and excels.But it's really expensive.We cannot have 150-200 rafales,we need to build up our numbers with Tejas and its variants.
 

IndianHawk

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2016
Messages
9,058
Likes
37,675
Country flag
I think best replacement for jaguar would be TEJAS.Cheap rugged reliable can clock hell lot of sorties lower turn around time.
Need of the hour is mk1a and in 6-8 years MK2 in huge numbers to fill up the gap.
Let's be realistic,Rafale is a great plane and excels.But it's really expensive.We cannot have 150-200 rafales,we need to build up our numbers with Tejas and its variants.
Exactly jaguar max load was more than lca but with engine performance down effective payload may be equal to or less than lca mk1 .

Lca mk1 range is shorter than jaguar but the standoff weaponry makes up for that.
 

IndianHawk

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2016
Messages
9,058
Likes
37,675
Country flag
The spec of Super MKI are known ?
They are in negotiations. Russian are offering their own su30 sm upgrade plan which includes Al-41 engine with irbis E radar with new rvv class missile. India probably will insist on full aesa.

On the Indian side digital RWR , Maws , irst are getting ready . Hbj pod is also there.

Most likely upgrades will come in batches as the fleet of 272 is huge ( bigger than entire french fighter force) . So upgrade will also evolve batch wise.
 

BON PLAN

-*-
Contributor
Joined
Dec 24, 2015
Messages
6,507
Likes
7,209
Country flag
They are in negotiations. Russian are offering their own su30 sm upgrade plan which includes Al-41 engine with irbis E radar with new rvv class missile. India probably will insist on full aesa.

On the Indian side digital RWR , Maws , irst are getting ready . Hbj pod is also there.

Most likely upgrades will come in batches as the fleet of 272 is huge ( bigger than entire french fighter force) . So upgrade will also evolve batch wise.
The engine is one thing. An AESA radar is onother, more important.
 

Latest Replies

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top