Know Your 'Rafale'

[mayfair]

No one is transferring Jet engine technology to India- Not US, not France, nor the Russians. These are the crown jewels and most closely guarded secrets. We must disabuse ourselves of this notion.

The only way we'll have jet engine technology is via Kaveri. No other way.

 

[Armand2REP]

Abysmal availablity was result of low investment in spares. Some investment by parrikar and now availablity is above 65% .

All modification to su30 frame for bramhos integration were done in India by Indians.

Astra has been flying with Indian seeker since 2017. Do keep up.

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If you made the spares then you wouldn't have an availability problem... hence the point.

Does it matter that you can make modifications when you can't make the critical components?

Astra has been flying but they just placed a huge order for more Russian missiles. Where is the huge order for Astra?

 

[Deathstar]

No one is transferring Jet engine technology to India- Not US, not France, nor the Russians. These are the crown jewels and most closely guarded secrets. We must disabuse ourselves of this notion.

The only way we'll have jet engine technology is via Kaveri. No other way.

Its typical Indian mentality to keep hoping someone might help us. Americans spent billions developing their engines in 50s 60s and we are comfortable with spending billions in importing but not in R&D

 

[Jameson Emoni]

No one is transferring Jet engine technology to India- Not US, not France, nor the Russians. These are the crown jewels and most closely guarded secrets. We must disabuse ourselves of this notion.

The only way we'll have jet engine technology is via Kaveri. No other way.

It makes sense because jet engines are the only things that seem to be holding India back. If India has a breakthrough in this area then quite a few arms exporters will lose prospective future sales.

Did France work with India on Kaveri or not?

 

[Frontrunner]

Good news folks... ISE upgraded rafale will be operations ready by September 2021.. few features of ISE upgrades are incorporated now only however rest hardware & software upgrade will happen in 3 months time frame... However their are few error in this report stating first rafale for india RB008 started testing in 2018.. instead it is 17 yr old rafale modified as Testbed for ISE upgrades.

http://www.defencenews.in/article/Indian-standard-Rafale-jet-to-be-ready-by-September-2021-586694

The first batch of Rafale fighter jets will be handed over to India in September in France but the first batch of jets will arrive in India by end of April 2020. During that time the IAF pilots will undergo advanced training on the Indian jets in France, Defence sources said.

“The first batch is scheduled to be handed over in September. From then to April 2020 three batches of eight IAF pilots along with engineers and technicians will undergo advanced training on the Indian jets in France, a senior source said. “The Indian-standard Rafale with all India Specific Enhancements (ISE) will be operationally ready latest by September 2021.”

So far three IAF pilots and two technical officers trained on the French Air Force Rafales as per the terms of the contract.


The first Rafale for India has made its maiden flight on October 30, 2018 in France and is designated RB008. RB stands for Air Marshal RKS Bhadauria who as then Deputy Chief of IAF led the Indian negotiation team and had a major role in the contract negotiations. This is an instrumented aircraft flown by test pilots and all 13 ISE will be incorporated, tested and certified on this. The RB008 will be the last to be delivered to the IAF, 67 months after the signing of the Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) in April 2022.

In September 2016, India and France signed a €7.87-billion IGA for 36 Rafale multi-role fighter jets in fly-away condition following the surprise announcement by Prime Minister Narendra Modi in April 2015 citing “critical operational necessity” of the IAF.

As per the IGA, deliveries begin 36 months from signing of the contract and will be completed in 67 months. The government has consistently maintained that the deal was done to ensure quick delivery of the fighter aircraft to the IAF which is facing a drop in squadron strength.

Some of the ISE are incorporated in the aircraft during manufacturing. The remaining will be incorporated in 2021 over three months, the source said adding, “This includes both software and hardware upgrades.”

As reported by The Hindu earlier, the ISE “not present in the Rafale aircraft being operated by other countries” and pertain to radar enhancements, helmet-mounted display, ability to start and operate from high-altitude airfields, advanced infrared search and track sensor, a potent electronic jammer pod and avionics.

 

[Tridev123]

Was U.S. willing to transfer jet engine technology if India bought F-18s?

The US would be probably the last to offer us jet engine technology. Ideally they would like us to continue using their GE404 and GE414 engines in our LCA Tejas variants and be dependent on them. But if their geopolitical needs warrant a friendly and cooperative India they can be blackmailed to a certain extent. Pakistan obtained centrifuge technology from Europe with the US turning a blind eye. They knew what the Pakistanis were diong- stealing technology through the infamous A. Q. Khan and could have stopped it but they needed Pakistan to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan. Zia Ul Haq used the Americans to get enriched Uranium technology and made the bomb using Chinese nuclear bomb designs. So yes, strange things do happen.

But most of us agree that India should preferably develop its own gas turbine engine technology through hard work and R & D. It will be expensive and time consuming but most preferable in the long run. We need not be dependent on anyone. The main challenges seem to be in the area of high temperature materials for the core.

On the other hand even advanced countries like the US, Russia and European countries do indulge in commercial espionage to steal important technologies from other nations. Maybe our RAW needs to emulate the ISI of Pakistan in this case. The Pakistanis stole full design details of 1st and 2nd generation centrifuges from European labs.
As they say by hook or crook achieve your goal.

Seriously our Government must allot large funds for aero engine research and development. Just having only GTRE working on it won't suffice. We need a broad-based approach with multiple teams working.

A Question to ponder on
Is the government going slow on the LCA programme because it has an imported engine. Our original aim was to have the Tejas powered by our own Kaveri turbofan in the production models. GE404 was to be used only in the prototypes.

 

[IndianHawk]

If you made the spares then you wouldn't have an availability problem... hence the point.

Does it matter that you can make modifications when you can't make the critical components?

Astra has been flying but they just placed a huge order for more Russian missiles. Where is the huge order for Astra?

Now you're just shifting the topic .

Critical component are being manufactured in India . Su30 MKI engine is being manufactured in India . Mission computer is Indian. Are these not critical?? India rwr , Indian display are in the plane . And all the western components are only there because it's manufactured in India.

Modification do matter. We are able to integrate all kinds of weapons without Russian help because we have full control over mission computer and radar interface.

Astra is already in limited series production. More orders will follow . Missile is still expanding its envelope.





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[BON PLAN]

Was U.S. willing to transfer jet engine technology if India bought F-18s?

in your dreams... .

 

[BON PLAN]

No one is transferring Jet engine technology to India- Not US, not France, nor the Russians. These are the crown jewels and most closely guarded secrets. We must disabuse ourselves of this notion.

The only way we'll have jet engine technology is via Kaveri. No other way.

Not sure for France.
After all we gave missile and nux tech to israel.
We are giving knowledge to Brazil to built a nuc sub.
why not helping you on engine tech ? Not the last gen, but why not M53 tech ?

 

[Tridev123]

Not sure for France.
After all we gave missile and nux tech to israel.
We are giving knowledge to Brazil to built a nuc sub.
why not helping you on engine tech ? Not the last gen, but why not M53 tech ?

I would be very happy if you are speaking for the French government. We don't want your latest state of the art engine technology and expecting that is foolishness. A generation behind is OK and we will improve on it. A question, will creating a working prototype lead to successful production in large numbers.

 

[IndianHawk]

I would be very happy if you are speaking for the French government. We don't want your latest state of the art engine technology and expecting that is foolishness. A generation behind is OK and we will improve on it. A question, will creating a working prototype lead to successful production in large numbers.

A realistic possiblity is a joint engine for AMCA and mwf later version of 110kn.

France and India can share IP and France can still earn huge money over lifetime of mwf and AMCA. Such an arrangement could also see India buying into 6 th gen Franco German project too in place of fgfa.

If french play this right they could outwit Russia and USA at once to gain long term primary position into Indian market.



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[Tridev123]

A realistic possiblity is a joint engine for AMCA and mwf later version of 110kn.

France and India can share IP and France can still earn huge money over lifetime of mwf and AMCA. Such an arrangement could also see India buying into 6 th gen Franco German project too in place of fgfa.

If french play this right they could outwit Russia and USA at once to gain long term primary position into Indian market.



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Absolutely right Sir, but do French have 110kn engine. Even the GE414 has only 98 kn thrust. The GE414 EPE promising above 110 kn thrust is years away. And we must be able to mass produce an reliable engine. The Chinese are failing in mass production of reliable jet engines though they have working prototypes.

 

[Deathstar]

Absolutely right Sir, but do French have 110kn engine. Even the GE414 has only 98 kn thrust. The GE414 EPE promising above 110 kn thrust is years away. And we must be able to mass produce an reliable engine. The Chinese are failing in mass production of reliable jet engines though they have working prototypes.

Why aren't we looking at Pratt and Whitney???for higher thrust engines?

 

[lcafanboy]

It makes sense because jet engines are the only things that seem to be holding India back. If India has a breakthrough in this area then quite a few arms exporters will lose prospective future sales.

Did France work with India on Kaveri or not?

@mayfair
Rafale deal was stalled because of engine technology.
The renegotiated deal which was signed by Modi government is negotiated such that we will buy 36 Rafales fly away condition and during that period France will complete Kaveri with snecma core to push it above 90kn. Once completed and test flown full mmrca deal will be signed and Safran will start a plant in India which will provide m88 engine to Rafale and Kaveri core based on m88 core to HAL for production in India.

Snecma can easily pass on technology for m88 core which is 1850 TET core as they are already testing 2300 TET Core which is just 50tet short of Pratt and Whitney engine of F35 which is 2350 TET core, so m88 engine core technology will be obsolete by 2023-25. We have reached just 1650 TET core with our own efforts till now.

 

[BON PLAN]

Absolutely right Sir, but do French have 110kn engine. Even the GE414 has only 98 kn thrust. The GE414 EPE promising above 110 kn thrust is years away. And we must be able to mass produce an reliable engine. The Chinese are failing in mass production of reliable jet engines though they have working prototypes.

The M88 was studied from the beginning in 3 models : 75kN, 90kN, 105kN. Only the first was built in serial for Rafale. 90kN was test. 105kN could be revive.

6th gen SCAF will need a even more powerfull engine, because the plane will be heavier. Just wait and see....

 

[kunal1123]

ITI Nagpur students to learn to assemble Rafale jets – Indian Defence Research Wing
2-3 minutes
SOURCE: PTI

Students of the Industrial Training Institute (ITI) here in Maharashtra are all set to get a chance to learn how to assemble and fit body parts of the Rafale and Falcon aircraft, an official said on Tuesday. The France-based Dassault Aviation, manufacturer of Rafale fighter jets, signed an agreement with the government- run ITI Nagpur last month for starting an ‘Aeronautical Structure and Equipment Fitter’ course at the institute.

“The students will get training in the assembly of aerostructure, cockpit fitting, wings fitting and body structure fitting of Falcon and Rafale aircraft at the DRAL unit here,” ITI’s principal Hemant Aaware told PTI.

The Dassault Reliance Aerospace Limited (DRAL), a joint venture between Dassault Aviation and Reliance Group, has a facility in MIHAN (Multi-modal International Cargo Hub and Airport at Nagpur) for the assembling of Falcon 2000 passenger planes and parts of Rafale jet.

Aaware said before this new programme, the ITI did not have any aviation-related course.

“During an industry-academic interaction, we requested DRAL to start an aviation-related course at ITI,” he said.

The French aviation company and the ITI have jointly designed the syllabus of the two-year course, he said. A government resolution was issued last Friday for starting the course at the ITI here.

“We are planning to start the course this year itself with two batches of 21 students each in 2019-20. Besides, there will be one batch of 21 students in 2020-21 and two batches of 21 students each in 2021-22. There will be a total intake of 105 students for the course,” Aaware added.

 

[IndianHawk]

Absolutely right Sir, but do French have 110kn engine. Even the GE414 has only 98 kn thrust. The GE414 EPE promising above 110 kn thrust is years away. And we must be able to mass produce an reliable engine. The Chinese are failing in mass production of reliable jet engines though they have working prototypes.

As bon plan said france needs a more powerful engine for 6th gen plane.

Anyway what matters is technology. If France can make 110kn engine then India and France can both invest in development of such engine as sales to IAF over next 40 years are guaranteed.

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[IndianHawk]

Why aren't we looking at Pratt and Whitney???for higher thrust engines?

Because engine with 110kn which we need should be of same dimensions of ge f414 which will be used in mwf and AMCA.

GE is obviously the best bet. They already have a program to enhance thrust of f414 but it's needs us navy funding.

Good news is that us navy has just ordered 76 more f18 which will serve 40 years .they will need f414 upgrade for mid life upgrade.
So us navy might fund f414 with 110kn development.



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[Tridev123]

The M88 was studied from the beginning in 3 models : 75kN, 90kN, 105kN. Only the first was built in serial for Rafale. 90kN was test. 105kN could be revive.

6th gen SCAF will need a even more powerfull engine, because the plane will be heavier. Just wait and see....

Great. Now will the French walk the talk. Believe me, it will be a mutually beneficial relationship. France gains a large market and could possibly increase Rafale exports to other countries. IAF professionalism is acknowledged by many countries and its adoption of the Rafale can influence their buying behaviour. Many Indians believe that France is possibly the only serious competitor to the US in high technology weapons and the French can develop a capable stealth fighter to rival the F35.Funding seems to be France's main problem. That is why the large Indian aerospace market can make a significant difference.

It is now up to France to make good its promises. It will not be disappointed.

 

[Kshithij]

Because engine with 110kn which we need should be of same dimensions of ge f414 which will be used in mwf and AMCA.

Looking at how Rafale was fit with F404 in 1990s when M88 was not completed yet, it is possible to fit different sized engine in a plane by minor modifications. So, the 110kN engine can be and will be bigger than F414.