Know Your 'Rafale'

[IndianHawk]

If they knew it was going to be so expensive to re-engine them then why did they start an expensive upgrade process that is going to have such a short life line? We retired our Jags in 2005 and stopped making the engines around then, that is plenty of time to make contingency plans.

It got expensive because it got delayed. Bureaucray strikes again.

Anyway there is a tender out for blades for jaguar engine . Something is going on.

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[Jameson Emoni]

Rafales Ko BABAJI ka Bhi Ashirwad Mil Gaya...

I had always maintained 200+ Rafales are coming. Now it's getting clearer by the day. If Rafale deal gets through, it also means Kaveri engine is ready too...

What is the relation between Rafales coming and Kaveris being ready?

 

[lcafanboy]

If they knew it was going to be so expensive to re-engine them then why did they start an expensive upgrade process that is going to have such a short life line? We retired our Jags in 2005 and stopped making the engines around then, that is plenty of time to make contingency plans.

It was not supposed to be expensive. But Honeywell wants to milk it big time, so they quoted huge amount of around 3.75 billion dollars for engines for 180 engines plus darin3 upgrade cost. For that amount of money we can easily get 3-4sqdns of Rafales.
Now each Rafale is equivalent to 3jaguars so it's cheaper to buy new Rafale than upgrading old 3rd generation jaguars..

 

[lcafanboy]

What is the relation between Rafales coming and Kaveris being ready?

Without jet engine technology we were not going to buy Rafales. Manohar parrikar saw how Russia fooled us by not providing all tot promised in su30mki deal. So as a precaution we bought 36 Rafales fly away condition and provided time to complete Kaveri or maybe k10 engine. Now if we're signing complete deal that only means engine tot is complete or about to be completed...

 

[Frontrunner]

NO POINT in buying rafale in flyaway conditions with no transfer of technology it won't do any good to indian aerospace industry... IAF currently wants atleast two to three manufacturing lines in India for respective aircrafts to cure their long plaguing issue of dwindling squadrons strength..

It may well be the case if India goes ahead for G2G deal for 114+57 rafale with France to be completely made in India.. entailing complete transfer of technology in effect of Startegic Partnership model.. issue is they again need to cancel MMRCA 2.0 which is multi vander.. nd will take more time.. instead G2G is swiftest nd without bottlenecks... However technology transfer is really imperative here.. if france is willing to open production plant in india.. entailing complete transfer of technology.. then india should go for it... IAF is real desperate for new aircrafts .. as said by IAF chief it is still flying a 40 yr old aircraft.. no one drives a car that old..

Watch this comprehensive nd really good discussion on indian airforce modernisation..

 

[Armand2REP]

NO POINT in buying rafale in flyaway conditions with no transfer of technology it won't do any good to indian aerospace industry... IAF currently wants atleast two to three manufacturing lines in India for respective aircrafts to cure their long plaguing issue of dwindling squadrons strength..

What exactly has buying hundreds of MKI done for India's aerospace industry?

 

[republic_roi97]

What exactly has buying hundreds of MKI done for India's aerospace industry?

Brought the cost down and generated employment and increased the level of know how.

 

[Armand2REP]

Brought the cost down and generated employment and increased the level of know how.

The cost is higher than buying it from Russia. That employment is currently on strike.

 

[Frontrunner]

What exactly has buying hundreds of MKI done for India's aerospace industry?

I am saying involve a private player to the game through strategic partnerships model..it will entail accountability, liability & professionalism.. which is missing in defence public sector cos.. we have to end this monopoly of infamous HAL.. which is providing Dollies to indian airforce in name of potent aircraft.. like what they have done to su30, mirage 2000 (an upgraded mirage crashed few months before owing to lax workmanship of HAL.. iaf was pretty vocal about it.. because they lost two pilots)

If we keep on hinging on HAL to meet airforce requirements.. then we are doomed for good.. only solution is to involve private players in Indian aerospace industry.. nd SPM could be the right plan to start with it..

 

[Tridev123]

Buying more Rafale fighters makes eminent sense for a host of reasons. One, French weapons do not come with strings attached like the US. France does have a fairly good record of helping us technology wise. Other reasons are limited alternatives to the Rafale. The Typhoon is too expensive and one would have to depend on too many countries for spares and technology. Russian fighters like Mig35 and Su35s are currently not on par with the Rafale. The future of course could change. Buying US F16 is madness as Pakistan has been operating them for decades. The F18 Super Hornet remains a credible alternative but should have been bought at first instead of the Rafale if we wanted a US jet with all the usage conditions that come as extras. Having already bought the Rafale it makes little sense to increase aircraft types and the resultant maintenance problems. The F18 Super Hornet offers nothing extra to the Rafale. Maybe the Aesa radar of the F18 could be better than the Rafale's radar. Again debatable. The biggest drawback of US equipment is that it is not a reliable supplier. Since China is a big country twin engine jets with large combat radius and increased reliability are more appropriate for India. Our jets would have to travel thousands of kilometres to reach major targets in China. That almost leaves out the single engine jet as an option for India.

But after having favoured the Rafale as the option for India a few points need to be made. The French should understand that we expect some quid pro quo from them. Our aim is to eventually become self sufficient in aerospace technology. We require some help in areas of jet engine technology and possibly other areas as well. It is in France's interest to have a multi polar world and helping India become technologically self sufficient will promote such multipolarity. As the Indian economy grows and our GDP increases our ability to collaborate with countries like France for new weapons like the 6th generation fighter will increase. It is a win-win situation for France. France should remember that export orders for the Rafale materialised only after it was selected as the winner in our MMRCA competition.
Hence technology transfer by France should be an essential part of the Rafale deal. Just like we have more Su30's than even the Russian Air Force, we might well end up with more Rafale's than even the French Air Force.

The US can still sell their combat jets to India and the F35 seems to have the brightest chances. And please no suffocating user conditions or restrictions. There really is no alternative to the F35. The Su57 is as yet unproven.

 

[BON PLAN]

Maybe the Aesa radar of the F18 could be better than the Rafale's radar. Again debatable.

The nose cone of the SH18 is bigger, so the SH radar antenna is bigger so probably more powerfull.... (But it don't automatically means more range, because the quality of the T/R and the quality of the signal treatment may change a lot of things).
But the Rafale is smaller and stealthier than SH, so it can be betected at smaller distance.
And Rafale is Meteor fitted. A real asset against any other fighter.

 

[BON PLAN]

Modi leaving france . No hint of extra rafales .

It was not the right moment.
And not more in september the 20th with the delivery of the first indian Rafale.
The real nice moment will be in may 2020, when the first planes will land in India, after 8 months of intensiv tests made by the indian tests pilots.

 

[lcafanboy]

The cost is higher than buying it from Russia. That employment is currently on strike.

Yes cost is higher but money remains within India and provide local employment and has widen knowledge base plus has made su30mkis sanction proof so during war if Russia wants to hold spares we can manufacture in house.
Currently reserved quota Chaaps at HAL are on strike but private vendors like MRF which makes tyres for su30mkis not.
So it's not all negative and in future with Rafale production in India the knowledge base will widen further and provide local employment and export opportunities....

 

[IndianHawk]

The cost is higher than buying it from Russia. That employment is currently on strike.

Seriously??

su30MKI has Indian mission computer. Can be maintained and overhauled in India itself completely.

We have added bramhos to it without Russian input. And we have added Astra without Russian input. How would we learn to do all that if we didn't build su30 MKI here?

We built rwr for it. We are building irst and hbj for it. We can integrate all Indian weaponry to it.

That's a huge learning curve .

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[Tridev123]

I am saying involve a private player to the game through strategic partnerships model..it will entail accountability, liability & professionalism.. which is missing in defence public sector cos.. we have to end this monopoly of infamous HAL.. which is providing Dollies to indian airforce in name of potent aircraft.. like what they have done to su30, mirage 2000 (an upgraded mirage crashed few months before owing to lax workmanship of HAL.. iaf was pretty vocal about it.. because they lost two pilots)

If we keep on hinging on HAL to meet airforce requirements.. then we are doomed for good.. only solution is to involve private players in Indian aerospace industry.. nd SPM could be the right plan to start with it..

Yes, I agree. The realisation that there needs to be competition to HAL should have happened long time ago. Even communist Soviets had two big design organisations and production agencies - namely Mig and Sukhoi. Single monopoly breeds complacency and other inefficiencies.Agreed Aerospace technology is hitech and not easy to master. But established engineering intensive companies should be encouraged to make a start. How did L & T manufacture highly complex nuclear submarine hulls?. There was assistance from Russia all right but the credit cannot be taken away from L & T. We need to trust our private sector companies. The market for both planes and helicopters in India is so large that both HAL and the private sector can profitably thrive. Why should we be worried over HAL's future if other players enter the market. In my opinion HAL has a golden goose in the LCA programme,be it LCA mk1a or the lcamk2(mwf). The demand is for a minimum of 300 fighters. HAL must get its act together and deliver on the LCA. Exports of the LCA have not even been considered. That's a bonus.

Let HAL continue and improve but also let us have other production agencies. The transport aircraft project - C295 should be expedited as it is almost a settled deal. Cost negotiations should be completed ASAP.

 

[Armand2REP]

Seriously??

su30MKI has Indian mission computer. Can be maintained and overhauled in India itself completely.

We have added bramhos to it without Russian input. And we have added Astra without Russian input. How would we learn to do all that if we didn't build su30 MKI here?

We built rwr for it. We are building irst and hbj for it. We can integrate all Indian weaponry to it.

That's a huge learning curve .

Sent from my C103 using Tapatalk

They can't do much of anything without spares from Russia. It wasn't so long ago it had an abysmal availability rate and we learned just how much isn't made in India.

You have plenty of Russians working at Brahmos, they gave their input.

You added Astra when it used a Russian seeker tied to a Russian radar... they had plenty of input.

You can integrate anything you want when aircraft use MIL-STD-1553.

 

[ashdoc]

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/frances-dassault-rafale-no-competition-f-35-75701

Good article articulating capabilities of rafale. Even though it's title claims that rafale is no match to f 35 , rest of the article is about capabilities of rafale.

 

[IndianHawk]

They can't do much of anything without spares from Russia. It wasn't so long ago it had an abysmal availability rate and we learned just how much isn't made in India.

You have plenty of Russians working at Brahmos, they gave their input.

You added Astra when it used a Russian seeker tied to a Russian radar... they had plenty of input.

You can integrate anything you want when aircraft use MIL-STD-1553.

Abysmal availablity was result of low investment in spares. Some investment by parrikar and now availablity is above 65% .

All modification to su30 frame for bramhos integration were done in India by Indians.

Astra has been flying with Indian seeker since 2017. Do keep up.

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[Jameson Emoni]

Buying more Rafale fighters makes eminent sense for a host of reasons. One, French weapons do not come with strings attached like the US. France does have a fairly good record of helping us technology wise. Other reasons are limited alternatives to the Rafale. The Typhoon is too expensive and one would have to depend on too many countries for spares and technology. Russian fighters like Mig35 and Su35s are currently not on par with the Rafale. The future of course could change. Buying US F16 is madness as Pakistan has been operating them for decades. The F18 Super Hornet remains a credible alternative but should have been bought at first instead of the Rafale if we wanted a US jet with all the usage conditions that come as extras. Having already bought the Rafale it makes little sense to increase aircraft types and the resultant maintenance problems. The F18 Super Hornet offers nothing extra to the Rafale. Maybe the Aesa radar of the F18 could be better than the Rafale's radar. Again debatable. The biggest drawback of US equipment is that it is not a reliable supplier. Since China is a big country twin engine jets with large combat radius and increased reliability are more appropriate for India. Our jets would have to travel thousands of kilometres to reach major targets in China. That almost leaves out the single engine jet as an option for India.

But after having favoured the Rafale as the option for India a few points need to be made. The French should understand that we expect some quid pro quo from them. Our aim is to eventually become self sufficient in aerospace technology. We require some help in areas of jet engine technology and possibly other areas as well. It is in France's interest to have a multi polar world and helping India become technologically self sufficient will promote such multipolarity. As the Indian economy grows and our GDP increases our ability to collaborate with countries like France for new weapons like the 6th generation fighter will increase. It is a win-win situation for France. France should remember that export orders for the Rafale materialised only after it was selected as the winner in our MMRCA competition.
Hence technology transfer by France should be an essential part of the Rafale deal. Just like we have more Su30's than even the Russian Air Force, we might well end up with more Rafale's than even the French Air Force.

The US can still sell their combat jets to India and the F35 seems to have the brightest chances. And please no suffocating user conditions or restrictions. There really is no alternative to the F35. The Su57 is as yet unproven.

Was U.S. willing to transfer jet engine technology if India bought F-18s?

 

[Jameson Emoni]

We should always opt for building in India if that option is available even if it means building somewhat inferior aircraft.