Know Your 'Rafale'

[BON PLAN]

Well I frankly don't want understand this commonality argument

On one hand they say rafale is modular design

And has modular LRUs and has a giant leap of advance against mirage 2000

Then they talk of commonality

How does these 2 work together

Same weapons, some common tools, same test bench, same suppliers. It help a lot, no?

 

[smestarz]

In a package with rafale

Ha-ha what a joke

does sound like going to market to buy Rs 5 ka "hara masala" and being "suggested" to buy chicken with it as a "package' its anyones guess who would give such ides, Desperate people of desperate country

 

[smestarz]

Its easy, first in 80s someone is paid kickbacks to buy Mirages and they buy it twice the price of what it was worth.
Then few years back they again pay twice the possible price for uprades of the same plane, which even after the upgrade are not capable as Tejas..and yet the IAF is very happy with Mirage 2000 waste of taxpayers money

Now they want us to buy this over priced scrap, and then after 15 years later pay almost the same price or maybe 125% of the price for upgrades..

This is how the system works with France.

Presently there are Riots in France, funny to think that the peoples livelihood was depending on the indian order and since they do not see it coming, they want France to do something about more orders.

Commonality is good if you have big numbers, but when we talk of 48 Mirage 2000 and 270+ Su-30 MKI, the commonality of Su-30 MKI makes more sense than Mirage 2000

Well I frankly don't want understand this commonality argument

On one hand they say rafale is modular design

And has modular LRUs and has a giant leap of advance against mirage 2000

Then they talk of commonality

How does these 2 work together

 

[smestarz]

Oh Snap, did he say that? I mean Dogmatix here did say that Dassault already has its orderbook full and that they dont really need indian orders, There is no stupid company in the world that says "we dont want orders" They say that but yet they are begging for orders. 48 planes at say rate of 12 a year is till 4 years and really not enough to recover the R&D spent, and so that will in a way be expensive future upgrades for all those who have Rafale.

Dassault To Reduce Rafale Production If Indian Deal Fizzles Out

Dassault Aviation has said that it may decrease production of the Rafale aircraft if the deal to sell 36 aircraft to India does not materialize this year.
“The ball is not in my court, ball is in hands of the Indian authorities”, Eric Trappier, CEO of Dassault Aviation was quoted as saying at the EBACE business aircraft show in Geneva yesterday.
This is perhaps the first pessimistic statement from the Dassault CEO who has all along been upbeat about the prospects of securing the 36 aircraft Indian deal despite the delay in arriving at a contract.
The Dassault CEO was answering questions from media representatives as to the delay in signing the Indian contract. Ouest-france.fr which quoted Trappier also paraphrased his quote stating that the manufacturer may slowly decrease production of the Rafale to return to a monthly rate of one per month.
However, Indian Defense minister Manohar Parrikar was quoted as saying by Indian Express during the course of an interview, referring to the rafale deal, “Probably we are close to a final position, which may happen anytime soon.”
Dassault has two international orders on hand, one from Egypt and another from Qatar for 24 aircraft each, an order it expects to fulfil in 3-4 years. For this it has ramped production to two per month.
In another development, Early last month, for reasons that are not clear, former director general defense acquisition Smita Nagaraj was involuntarily placed on leave over differences with MoD leaders over Rafale negotiations.
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2016/05/dassault-to-reduce-rafale-production-if.html

ay

 

[WolfPack86]

Govt looks at concluding Rafale deal in June: Parrikar
The government is looking at concluding the much-hyped multi billion Euro Rafale deal next month, more than a year after Prime Minister Narendra Modi had announced the purchase of 36 fighter jets during his visit to France.

"There is no reason why it should not be concluded in June. Not much is left. It is in the last phase," Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar told PTI here in an interview.

Rejecting suggestions that there has been a delay in signing the contract for nearly 7.89 Billion Euros to procure the French fighter planes, the Minister said any such process takes at least 6-8 months.
"We started the process only in July last year. After Prime Minister's statement in April, everything came to us. We asked them (French) for various options. We met them and finally one line was decided," he said.

Noting that he is travelling for the next 8-10 days, the Minister said he will "see to it" that the deal is "concluded fast".

"Things have to be placed properly on the table. They (negotiating team) now have to submit a report to me on what has been discussed. After that we have to discuss it in the Cabinet. We will first sign an Inter Government Agreement. All these things take 3-4 weeks," he said.

The deal was announced by Modi in April last year during his visit to France when he said India would purchase 36 Rafales in a government-to-government contract.

Soon after the announcement, the Defence Ministry scrapped a separate process that was on to purchase 126 Rafales, built by French defence giant Dassault Aviation.
The current deal comes with the clause of delivering 50 per cent offsets, creating business worth at least 3 billion Euros for smaller Indian companies and generating thousands of new jobs in India through the offsets.

In fact, the toughest phase in the negotiations that began in July was to get the French to agree to 50 per cent offsets in the deal.

Initially, Dassault Aviation was willing to agree to reinvest only 30 per cent of the value of its contract in Indian entities to meet the offset obligations.

The French side finally agreed to invest 50 per cent of the value following a phone conversation between Modi and French President Francois Hollande late last year.

The commercial negotiations, as in the pricing of the planes, equipment and other issues, actually began only in mid-January this year.
http://www.business-standard.com/ar...ale-deal-in-june-parrikar-116052601146_1.html

 

[smestarz]

Same weapons, some common tools, same test bench, same suppliers. It help a lot, no?

Hola dogmatix You are right, but then it makes more sense to buy more Su-30 MKI or Su-35, same weapons, same tools, same production facility, same suppliers and we even have over haul facility and the price,,, much cheaper than Rafale
BTW the only missile that Mirage 2000 has is MICA. we are not using any other French missiles that are there in significant quantity that might require commonality

So it makes more sense to buy Su-35 instead of 36 Rafales as then we have almost entire set up all ready in India. Lol your suggestion is pathetic at best.

 

[smestarz]

http://indianexpress.com/article/in...s-bank-guarantee-awaits-indias-reply-2817725/

Rafale deal: France rejects bank guarantee, awaits India’s reply

ndia is yet to respond, either verbally or in writing, to a letter sent to Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar on April 1 by his French counterpart Jean-Yves Le Drian, who made what is said to be the “best offer” his country can make in a government-to-government deal for 36 Rafale fighter jets, sources told The Indian Express.

The initial French offer for the 36 fighters made by Dassault Aviation was for around Euro 10.5 billion, following which the Indian side asked for a 30 per cent cut. The latest offer, made in the French minister’s letter, is of around Euro 7.8 billion, said sources.

Days before the letter was sent, the French side had rejected an Indian request for a sovereign guarantee or a bank guarantee for the deal, and instead offered to provide a “comfort letter” from their prime minister.

As reported by The Indian Express on March 14, the law ministry had raised objections over France’s refusal to provide any bank guarantees. Asked about Le Drian’s letter, the defence ministry said it does not comment on ongoing negotiations between two governments.

Sources said there was “a significant difference” between the two offers. The original offer included a ten-year product support period, which has been brought down to five years, they said. The latest figure also does not include the cost of setting up infrastructure at two airbases for two Rafale squadrons, said sources.

It’s learnt that one of the bases is proposed to be established in the east, to tackle the Chinese threat, and the other in the north.

India will have to make a payment of 15 per cent of the total cost at the time of signing the deal, said sources. The first aircraft is scheduled to be supplied within 36 months of the signing of the deal while the last aircraft will reach India in seven years.

”Even though the Indian configuration is different from what the French air force flies, calculations show that the French government has agreed to provide a discount of around 7-8 per cent over its buying price. It will have to compensate Dassault for it in some way,” said sources.

The IAF has demanded a fighter configuration different from the one flown by the French air force, including an Israeli helmet-mounted camera and a third-party weapons system.

Price negotiations for the jets have been complicated by deals signed by France for selling the fighter to Egypt and Qatar. Sources said it would not be possible for France to go too far below those prices. Unlike India, Egypt and Qatar have opted for the same configuration as Dassault supplies to the French air force.

Sources also said that there was a small window available for the two sides to close the deal. French Ambassador François Richier, who has been closely involved with the deal, is ending his Delhi stint in June. It would take a few months for his replacement to present his credentials and understand the intricacies of the deal, they said.

The French establishment is also expected to go into election mode later this year with presidential polls scheduled next year.

India had announced its decision to buy the 36 fighters from France during Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to Paris last April. This followed the selection of the French fighter in a decade-long competitive bid for India’s next Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA). The 126-aircraft MMRCA tender was withdrawn by the NDA government soon after the announcement of the 36 fighter deal in Paris.

Technical negotiations were completed earlier this year and the deal was expected to be signed in January when French President Francois Hollande was the chief guest at the Republic Day celebrations. But both sides were unable to conclude negotiations over price by then.

PARRIKAR IS NOT THE PERSON TO GO AGAINST LAW, NOR IS MODI, THUS NO BANK OR SOVEREIGN GUARANTEES THEN THERE IS NO CHANCE OF FURTHER DISCUSSION ON THIS AS GOI WILL NOT DILUTE THIS POINT.

 

[sasum]

Parikkar in recent times has lost much of his credibility. He has not proven to be a savvy administrator. There is a buzz, in the forthcoming cabinet reshuffle, he may be eased out.

 

[BON PLAN]

Hola dogmatix You are right, but then it makes more sense to buy more Su-30 MKI or Su-35, same weapons, same tools, same production facility, same suppliers and we even have over haul facility and the price,,, much cheaper than Rafale
BTW the only missile that Mirage 2000 has is MICA. we are not using any other French missiles that are there in significant quantity that might require commonality

So it makes more sense to buy Su-35 instead of 36 Rafales as then we have almost entire set up all ready in India. Lol your suggestion is pathetic at best.

I only answerd to your question. Is it enough for you to be pathetic? So I'm a pathetic guy.

Some months ago you were pushing for Mig 35. Now for SU35. Do you really know what your are for, except against all french products and people ?

 

[BON PLAN]

Parikkar in recent times has lost much of his credibility. He has not proven to be a savvy administrator. There is a buzz, in the forthcoming cabinet reshuffle, he may be eased out.

Strange !!!

Because he doesn't speak the way you want, he suddenly lost part of its credibility.....

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Same weapons, some common tools, same test bench, same suppliers. It help a lot, no?

Ni unless the parts are same

And parts cannot be same I'd the technology is advanced by 30 years

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Same weapons, some common tools, same test bench, same suppliers. It help a lot, no?

OK let's see rafale fanboys like @Gessler and other rafale online marketing members like you and pic claimed that

Spectra accounts for 30% of rafale costs

Then consider rbe2 aesa which should cost around 5%

Now mirage don't have rbe2 aesa nir spectra so there is no commonality in 35% of costs straight away

If we do.itwm by item analysis I think the commonality will come.down to only nuts bolts screws and account for less than 5% of total value

 

[Tactical Frog]

In a package with rafale

Ha-ha what a joke

Ha-Ha no joke Warrior . Egypt bought Rafale with 1 FREMM frigate , so you can get F21 torpedoes with Rafale in the same IGA if you write a small 8 billion $ cheque to my country .

Parrikar RM now says that he see no reason for which the deal should not be signed in June ! I started celebrating with chestnut liquor . What does Raksha Mantri means btw ?!

 

[Anupu]

Ha-Ha no joke Warrior . Egypt bought Rafale with 1 FREMM frigate , so you can get F21 torpedoes with Rafale in the same IGA if you write a small 8 billion $ cheque to my country .

Parrikar RM now says that he see no reason for which the deal should not be signed in June ! I started celebrating with chestnut liquor . What does Raksha Mantri means btw ?!

Defense Minister in Hindi is Raksha Mantri. Raksha = Defense, Mantri = Minister.

 

[smestarz]

SPECTRA, Radar, Engines, even as Dassault claims that the skin is composites unlike Mirage 2000,
Thus the commonality might end up being several thousand Euros for nuts, bolts and ribits,
I think what they mean by commonlity maybe is that Rafale is just Mirage 2000 with two engines and canards.
After all Mirage III to Mirage 2000 to Mirage 4000 to Rafale is just modification of the base design Mirage III and nothing else.. Mirage III -- Mirage 2000 is Mirage III with better avionics,.. Mirage 4000 is twin engine Mirage 2000 with canards and more advance avionics. Rafale is remarketed Mirage 4000 with exaggerated SPECTRA
Everyone knows that Mirage 2000 is modified Mirage III
Food for thought
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...rage_2000B_top-view_silhouette_comparison.png

OK let's see rafale fanboys like @Gessler and other rafale online marketing members like you and pic claimed that

Spectra accounts for 30% of rafale costs

Then consider rbe2 aesa which should cost around 5%

Now mirage don't have rbe2 aesa nir spectra so there is no commonality in 35% of costs straight away

If we do.itwm by item analysis I think the commonality will come.down to only nuts bolts screws and account for less than 5% of total value

 

[smestarz]

You can see in this image of Mirage 4000 that its basically Mirage 2000 with twin eingine and Canards, and the same design was then modified a bit for Rafale
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-99B1wv5J3...assault++Mirage+4000+Jet+Fighter+Aircraft.jpg
http://www.aircraftinformation.info/Images/Mirage_4000_01.jpg

And this image shows how similar Mirage 2000 and Mirage 4000 looked, Mirage 4000 was twin engine Mirage 2000 with canards,
http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/759905M4000fev2582202jpg.jpg

Thus for developing Rafale the French did not have to do much, Dassault already had Mirage 4000 that was rejected by France and so all they did was tweak the design a bit and they had Rafale

 

[smestarz]

One should really commend Dassault, for designing Mirage III in 1961 (introduced) and using the same template for 5 decades !!!! Mirage III to Mirage 2000 to Mirage 4000 to Rafale, Am sure that Dassault will manage to tweak and push the same design for another 4 decades and possibly make a new record for a military plane, Highest money made by one design thats being tweaked and upgraded and used for maybe 10 decades (hopefully France will be using Rafale or its tweaked avatar till 2061 at least.. And this is an achievement

 

[smestarz]

LOL, get over it, Parrikar has not lost his credibility, as a matter of fact he has broken the various lobbies that were active during UPA and some are just inactive now. There have been various misinformation given to him by seriving and ex defence chiefs which he has analysed with open mind and found that much of the defence leadership is compormised. When an air force chief selects a chopper, on what grounds are the company thats selected paying commission to relatives of the Air chief? In any era thats strange unless he was fingering the proverbial pudding.

For BJP, every state where they have a govt or have a strong position is important, Parrikar is an able administrator and his administration in Goa has shown that, My family roots are from Goa and I can say that I do know the RM personally. Goa is a complex state where religion plays a very important role. Till few years ago, the Hindus voted for BJP or MGP (this is not defunct) and the Christians and Muslims voted for Congress, Goa has almost equal percentage of Hindus and Christians. Last election, Parrrikar gave seats to capable people irrespective of their religion. Many of of the BJP MLAs are christians. But after Parrikar became defence minister the Deputy CM was not promoted to CM but another person was selected to be CM. This CM has not been popular. When the earlier leader is charismatic and very able administrator, it takes a very strong effort and leadership skills to maintain what was created before, and like we see in Gujarat and Goa after their CMs went to centre, the leadership that followed in the state were not as decisive. It is not going to be possible to ask NaMo to contest in Gujarat elections being the CM candidate. But for Parrikar it is possible, The present leadership does not want to lose any state to oppostion, so they have to maintain their governance in each state they hold and for Goa, Parrikar is the key. He has developed Goa a lot with good and modern roads and infra structure.And there is real lack of such able administrator in Goa. In next 10 years, I foresee Parrikar as PM candidate. Mark my words.

Parikkar in recent times has lost much of his credibility. He has not proven to be a savvy administrator. There is a buzz, in the forthcoming cabinet reshuffle, he may be eased out.

 

[smestarz]

What you fail to notice is the obvious difference,
Egypt was discussing a package of FREMM and Rafales and spares, They were not just discusing Rafales.,
India is discussing with France for just 36 Rafales and here in likes the big difference,

The Egyptian purchase of Mistrals was a separate purchase..

Nice statement, is that going to be the new style of begging? Not that impressive I might say.

Ha-Ha no joke Warrior . Egypt bought Rafale with 1 FREMM frigate , so you can get F21 torpedoes with Rafale in the same IGA if you write a small 8 billion $ cheque to my country .

Parrikar RM now says that he see no reason for which the deal should not be signed in June ! I started celebrating with chestnut liquor . What does Raksha Mantri means btw ?!

 

[smestarz]

Dear Dogmatix, heel, sit and behave., good now listen
We already have enough Su-30 MKI which are force multipliers and their range and war load allow them to be used in mass if required, for example using few air tankers, Su-30 MKI from the eastern sector can be brought to fly and dominate the Western sector area and saturating it creating an entire air dominance that even a trainer plane can be used to bomb any target in Pakistan, This feat can be achieved even on its internal fuel..

Now what is the priority for the air force? It is depleting numbers, these numbers have to be made up by Tejas. Tejas are as capable as Rafale in terms of air combat (bigger radar and longer ranged missiles) So inducting 200 Tejas should be the priority of IAF to make up the numbers that they so cry for. IAF is already using one of the most capable plane Su-30 MKI.

In air combat, what is important is capability of plane and not its weight, Weight is important when its transport plane or if its carrier plane. For land based plane what is important its performance and what roles it can fulfill, Whatever roles Rafale can fulfill, Su-30 MKI can fulfill those and at much cheaper LCC. That is why I rule Rafale out. Now IAF top brass are changing when the govt has told them very specifically "our way or the high way" Already IAF chief flew the Tejas as token of his acceptance of the plane,

But if for some reason IAF wants numbers urgently, then its best to go for Su-35 produced by Russia, the plane is capable and is cheap to buy. We are already making spares for Su-30 MKI which has commonality with Su-35.
But if they insist on "Medium" then there are always MiG-35 or F/A-18 SH

Thus to summarise
a) we do not need any "medium" plane, Tejas should suffice
b) If we want numbers fast then those should be Su-35 as that can be produced fast by Russia and available soon.
c) Su-30 MKI upgrade to Super Sukhoi should be discussed and finalised.
d) If for some reason IAF insist for "medium" then MiG-35 or F/A-18 are the answers.

My way for the future, Tejas Mk1A and PAKFA/FGFA, I would not order Su-35 unless it becomes imperative

I guess now you do understand the logic.

ooops in this there is no place for either Eurofighter Gripen or Rafale.

I only answerd to your question. Is it enough for you to be pathetic? So I'm a pathetic guy.

Some months ago you were pushing for Mig 35. Now for SU35. Do you really know what your are for, except against all french products and people ?