Know Your 'Rafale'

[smestarz]

GIVE US ONE ONLY PROOF RAFALE WERE KICKED BY SU 30 MKI.
JUST ONE.
IF NOT CLOSE YOUR DIRTY MOUTH.

On the other forum where you are the member, do ask Vstol Joakey about it, he will educate you fully about Su-30 MKI vs Rafale and with all limitations Su-30 MKI had specially with range of its long range missiles.
Do get educated please

 

[smestarz]

Am not sure if they would allow this link here, but here is just summary, have a read there
http://*****************/threads/pak-fa-5th-generation-aircraft.851/page-232#post-471081
Thread PAKFA, Page 851
And in that exercise, the Su-30 MKI the simulated range of the R-77 missiles was vastly reduced than the actual range to equate with the lower range of the missiles carried by Rafale..
Link, proof.. done. now Dogmatix, back to your Rafale defence forum

 

[smestarz]

Unfortunatly for you, I'm a mechanical engineer, with a specialty : engineering study.... and you ?

And how exactly does being a Mechanical engineer relate to aeroplane design? Can you even design a car with that education?

 

[gadeshi]

Am not sure if they would allow this link here, but here is just summary, have a read there
http://*****************/threads/pak-fa-5th-generation-aircraft.851/page-232#post-471081
Thread PAKFA, Page 851
And in that exercise, the Su-30 MKI the simulated range of the R-77 missiles was vastly reduced than the actual range to equate with the lower range of the missiles carried by Rafale..
Link, proof.. done. now Dogmatix, back to your Rafale defence forum

Then imagine R-77E-1 performance and range 110 km)

Отправлено с моего XT1080 через Tapatalk

 

[smestarz]

French are one of the biggest hippocrites at least post WW2, when the Germans were having lunch in Paris, they were talking about the value of Fredom and Liberty and yet, post WW2 they were still trying to hold on to countries like Vietnam (French indo china as it was called then) and Aligeria, Senegal, Mauritania, etc.And this is the history saying it. Finally the French were beaten in Vietnam and in Algeria and had to leave these countries .. Dien Bien Phu should be a name that is well written in the annals of Foreign Legion.
Chinese do arm twist, and they are very blatant about it.
Now I would like to give you an analysis of your statement saying " IAF is really fond of Rafale"
IAF the pilots etc are fond of Su-30 MKI because of its capabilities and handling. There are more than 250 Su-30 MKI with IAF and hence about 500 Su-30 MKI pilots. On other hand, how many pilots of IAF have flown Rafale? Less than 10? To rephrase your statement with full honestly. "IAF pilots are fond of Su-30 MKI but some of the IAF top brass are fond of Rafale" This is more precise statement.
Most politicians are clueless about military, and if it was UPA govt, the Rafale deal would have been signed, but unfortunately, there is Parrikar, who is well educated, and an excellent administrator, who knows about technology and takes advice from various experts, Serving and non serving officers about capabilities and other details that he would need to know before to come to a decision.
If given a chance, IAF wants B-2, we cannot get them for it. Apparently seems the Rafale fanboys are resorting to new form of "cajoling begging"

Defence procurement is not about purchasing what the military wants, but understanding if its really a requirement or a whim. To provide funds for the products which are deemed urgent and necessary, and to manage the budget about purchasing them. Did you notice that most military govts did actually make the country bankrupt? Thats what happens when you give military Free hand about letting them buy what they want .
as you say, there is big difference between like you stated the ignorant french defence minister and well informed and educated Indian defence minister Mr. Parrikar.

No way ! No way !
There is no arm-twisting at all. France can barely do arm-twisting with anyone. Monaco maybe !
We cannot even do arm-twisting with a country like Niger, Gabon, Chad. They go see the Chinese if we try.
Also, if years of reading about Rafale deal taught me something, it is that IAF is really fond of Rafale ! You cannot deny this. So at a point the politicians have to listen to what their military say. I don' t know for Modi, Parrikar, but here in France most senior politicians are clueless about military .

 

[sasum]

We cannot even do arm-twisting with a country like Niger, Gabon, Chad. They go see the Chinese if we try.

...and we can not even go to Chinese unlike Pakistan. That us the reason for this day-light robbery.

it is that IAF is really fond of Rafale !

Hmmm..fond of Rafale ! I wonder why this fondness

 

[Tactical Frog]

Now I would like to give you an analysis of your statement saying " IAF is really fond of Rafale"

Do I really have to post multiple YouTube links of various Air Marshals defending the Rafale deal ? I can do it ...
Of course there will be people who will pretend they are all on some Dassault paylist. But what is stopping other Air Marshals to speak against Rafale ? I have never heard one doing this ! Give me only one against Rafale if you can.

 

[Sam Biswas]

I have a suspicion the French Govt is arm-twisting us to conclude Rafale purchase agreement with threat of toropedoing India's bid for NSG entry and pmt seat in UNSC.

You are definitely right. France has say over NSG as well as UNSC. PM Modi is being very careful about that. That is why no outright rejection of the deal by UPA. At the same time it is gratifying to see that he is not giving in to this irrational French demand. I expect this deal to stay in the limbo for a while. That will be fine as long as India advances quickly in Tejas and FGFA fronts; both of which are far more important.

 

[AnantS]

You are definitely right. France has say over NSG as well as UNSC. PM Modi is being very careful about that. That is why no outright rejection of the deal by UPA. At the same time it is gratifying to see that he is not giving in to this irrational French demand. I expect this deal to stay in the limbo for a while. That will be fine as long as India advances quickly in Tejas and FGFA fronts; both of which are far more important.

Rafale is just one of the many business transactions. With India's inclusion in NSG, France will get many more Areva like deals, hence France actively supports India's bid.

 

[Tactical Frog]

French are one of the biggest hippocrites at least post WW2, when the Germans were having lunch in Paris, they were talking about the value of Fredom and Liberty and yet, post WW2 they were still trying to hold on to countries like Vietnam (French indo china as it was called then) and Aligeria, Senegal, Mauritania, etc.And this is the history saying it. Finally the French were beaten in Vietnam and in Algeria and had to leave these countries .. Dien Bien Phu should be a name that is well written in the annals of Foreign Legion.
Chinese do arm twist, and they are very blatant about it.
Now I would like to give you an analysis of your statement saying " IAF is really fond of Rafale"
IAF the pilots etc are fond of Su-30 MKI because of its capabilities and handling. There are more than 250 Su-30 MKI with IAF and hence about 500 Su-30 MKI pilots. On other hand, how many pilots of IAF have flown Rafale? Less than 10? To rephrase your statement with full honestly. "IAF pilots are fond of Su-30 MKI but some of the IAF top brass are fond of Rafale" This is more precise statement.
Most politicians are clueless about military, and if it was UPA govt, the Rafale deal would have been signed, but unfortunately, there is Parrikar, who is well educated, and an excellent administrator, who knows about technology and takes advice from various experts, Serving and non serving officers about capabilities and other details that he would need to know before to come to a decision.
If given a chance, IAF wants B-2, we cannot get them for it. Apparently seems the Rafale fanboys are resorting to new form of "cajoling begging"

Defence procurement is not about purchasing what the military wants, but understanding if its really a requirement or a whim. To provide funds for the products which are deemed urgent and necessary, and to manage the budget about purchasing them. Did you notice that most military govts did actually make the country bankrupt? Thats what happens when you give military Free hand about letting them buy what they want .
as you say, there is big difference between like you stated the ignorant french defence minister and well informed and educated Indian defence minister Mr. Parrikar.

What with Dien Bien Phu now We actually like Dien Bien Phu very much ! That was an epic battle.

I agree that a civilian gov has to arbitrate between numerous requests from the military. But if the military tells the gov year after year that they need this specific plane and not another it would be foolish for civilians to pretend knowing better and imposing another plane. Providing the budget allows for it.
After our last intervention in Mali , the Etat Major said they needed Reapers ... they got them Instantly. Le Drian did not beat the bush around , looking for in-house solutions, tech transfer or whatever. There was a requirement, there was urgent need, there was money, and there was the ideal drone.

 

[smestarz]

Firstly, there is no need to be abusive and behave like a tool which you always do.

I always post my views and prefer healthy debating, Now the young dogmatix here (aka Bon plan) did ask me for the proof of it with link. I do not give a damn who operates any forum, I just take the knowledge. So to tell you simply, I lead I do not blindly follow others, I read what they say, and if have doubts, I ask them my doubts. If they are BS like some of members who are also mods there, I just simply ignore some of their posts which are utter biased. Thus when I quote someone, its on basis of what i read and understand and then filter out.

Anyway, there are few members there like Vstol and Picdel... who apparently are considered the most knowledgeable by that forum and the point is to tell young dogmatix to see what was posted by the guy who believes to be genuine, and stop coming up with craps.

I do have some connections at South block, and found that many "news" that he posts on IDF are very much contrary to what "feelers" I am getting from my friends at south block.

Anyway, the point is that I did give Dogmatix the link that he was looking for in the forum where he is very confortable (thats Rafale defence forum now) so either he can believe that and keep quiet, else he can then go and question Vstol about it.

And to reply to you, Do you have anything to say on Su-30 MKI edging Rafale during the exercise in Jodhpur? If not then there is no real point you to be arguing.

You might be an elite member, but that also means that you are the one to be having most discipline.

Enough of this shit

Do post your views and counter argument here, DFI allows to quote messages from high quality forums like Key publishing and Bharath Rakshak, but not the third rated ********** and his sister forum Indian defence.com IDF is well known by many of them that was operated by Pakistanis

Vstol Jockey aka @Decklander views are always problematic, that raises many questions about his service in Indian Navy, when members like @sayareakd and @Adux raises cross questions he failed to answer, later DFI team and WAF members like Capt @lemontree and Lt col @deltacamelotly cross examined his service records and found guilty, which forced DFI to ban him

Even I too believed his bullshit posts like Brahmos hi hi hi range is 600 km, even many shit posts

If you have further questions do ask me or contact the DFI team

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

What with Dien Bien Phu now We actually like Dien Bien Phu very much ! That was an epic battle.

I agree that a civilian gov has to arbitrate between numerous requests from the military. But if the military tells the gov year after year that they need this specific plane and not another it would be foolish for civilians to pretend knowing better and imposing another plane. Providing the budget allows for it.
After our last intervention in Mali , the Etat Major said they needed Reapers ... they got them Instantly. Le Drian did not beat the bush around , looking for in-house solutions, tech transfer or whatever. There was a requirement, there was urgent need, there was money, and there was the ideal drone.

Well in kargil the requirement was urgent the forces git them

We got the targeting pods and guided bombs integrated in record time

But eight now rafales are not that important or urgent

 

[Tactical Frog]

...and we can not even go to Chinese unlike Pakistan. That us the reason for this day-light robbery.


Hmmm..fond of Rafale ! I wonder why this fondness

Maybe ask directly to Aviator Anil Chopra on Twitter .

 

[smestarz]

If you want you can post it, this is a forum, you dont need my permission,
Just a question, how many of those Air Marshalls who you have their links supporting rafale deal have flowwn Rafale ? Maybe less than 5%, at least I know that NAK Browne was allowed to fly the plane when he was Air chief, and no one else. So these air marshals that you are saying, on what basis are those supporting Rafale deal?
There was one air marshall Bahadur, who had made such supporting statement in an article he wrote, and one of the member here ershaktivel did fine a lot of loopholes in his article, Why is that the Air marshalls sort of come up with comments when there is good chance that the govt will reject the deal There were lot of articles just prior to Modi's visit to France and after that the articles do not get posted, only when the deal is in trouble.

Let us try some logic, IAF is a defence establishment who hold together after all they are brother in arms, And seldom any of the forces contradict each other, not at least in open forum. As I said, how many of these air marshalls have flown Rafale? And yet they feel its best for India, On basis of Brochures? At the same time none of these are supportive of Tejas either, even which they have not flown. So how exactly are they making this decision? IAF as a whole was against Tejas even when the plane was being designed, That tells you about IAF.

More gems for you, Recently Ex-ACM Tyagi was grilled by CBI in his role in Agusta Westland chopper deal, Just enlightnen me, why would an italian helicopter company be paying relatives of Air chief marshall tyagi millions of dollars? I mean have italians been so generous? And these relatives, they accept Millions of dollars and they are ignorant how it came? where it came from? How many of the Air Marshalls that you want to post their videos talk against ex-ACMs Tyagis involvement in VVIP choppper scam?

I think that is enough for any wise man to read between the lines, The services protect their own unless the guy falls out of line.

BTW, the decision to buy any plane for IAF is keeping in mind for Future battles to be fought by IAF, so we need people with vision to do that, not people who have not flown that plane and who are retired and talking of their past glories. It is also funny that they talk highly of Mirage 2000, but ridicule Tejas whose test pilots have flown both M2000 as well as Tejas and rate Teja much higher than Mirage 2000,

Thats the level of incompetence our Air Marshals are at, as old you get youa re difficult to change, I guess their Gramaphone record needle is stuck at Rafale and cannot get past it. Thats due to old age, nothing else

Do I really have to post multiple YouTube links of various Air Marshals defending the Rafale deal ? I can do it ...
Of course there will be people who will pretend they are all on some Dassault paylist. But what is stopping other Air Marshals to speak against Rafale ? I have never heard one doing this ! Give me only one against Rafale if you can.

 

[Tactical Frog]

If you want you can post it, this is a forum, you dont need my permission,
Just a question, how many of those Air Marshalls who you have their links supporting rafale deal have flowwn Rafale ? Maybe less than 5%, at least I know that NAK Browne was allowed to fly the plane when he was Air chief, and no one else. So these air marshals that you are saying, on what basis are those supporting Rafale deal?
There was one air marshall Bahadur, who had made such supporting statement in an article he wrote, and one of the member here ershaktivel did fine a lot of loopholes in his article, Why is that the Air marshalls sort of come up with comments when there is good chance that the govt will reject the deal There were lot of articles just prior to Modi's visit to France and after that the articles do not get posted, only when the deal is in trouble.

Let us try some logic, IAF is a defence establishment who hold together after all they are brother in arms, And seldom any of the forces contradict each other, not at least in open forum. As I said, how many of these air marshalls have flown Rafale? And yet they feel its best for India, On basis of Brochures? At the same time none of these are supportive of Tejas either, even which they have not flown. So how exactly are they making this decision? IAF as a whole was against Tejas even when the plane was being designed, That tells you about IAF.

More gems for you, Recently Ex-ACM Tyagi was grilled by CBI in his role in Agusta Westland chopper deal, Just enlightnen me, why would an italian helicopter company be paying relatives of Air chief marshall tyagi millions of dollars? I mean have italians been so generous? And these relatives, they accept Millions of dollars and they are ignorant how it came? where it came from? How many of the Air Marshalls that you want to post their videos talk against ex-ACMs Tyagis involvement in VVIP choppper scam?

I think that is enough for any wise man to read between the lines, The services protect their own unless the guy falls out of line.

BTW, the decision to buy any plane for IAF is keeping in mind for Future battles to be fought by IAF, so we need people with vision to do that, not people who have not flown that plane and who are retired and talking of their past glories. It is also funny that they talk highly of Mirage 2000, but ridicule Tejas whose test pilots have flown both M2000 as well as Tejas and rate Teja much higher than Mirage 2000,

Thats the level of incompetence our Air Marshals are at, as old you get youa re difficult to change, I guess their Gramaphone record needle is stuck at Rafale and cannot get past it. Thats due to old age, nothing else

And on what basis should we give any credit to your rants ? You have not flown a jet, commanded squdrons or air wings, you have no direct connections with the military whatsoever ! But you are the genius and people with entire lives in the service of the nation are old fools.

 

[smestarz]

We live in a democracy and we have a sytem in place for managing things
Have you not heard recently our ACM saying that "... we need MMRCA type planes .. " so the need now is not Rafale specific, So the Military tells us MMRCA type which could mean MiG-35, Eurofighter, Rafale or F/A-18
It is not being called foolish, but its being called management. If you give your own air force free hand, they might want Dassault to increase production and order planes worth 43 squadrons for France. What is your air force commenting? Are they commenting? Till almost 10 years ago, the Military chiefs never went public with their opinion. Their optinon was to the govt as they want the plane and its the government to get it for them. But when the Military chiefs go public all in the name of democracy, then the govt has the right to deny them things PUBLICALLY.. Tell me Luftwaffe chief or AdlA chief go public with such statments like say your air chief saying "we need 200 more rafales in next year? " do they talk openly about threats to France in order to push the purchase. What has happened in India is the service chiefs got used to manipulating the govt by putting such statements about threat to the nation and then the govt giving in to their needs based on these "threats." including the very very expensive of Mirage 2000 which even after upgrade will not be half capable as Tejas. Thus now the democratically elected govt has to show the military that "We know you are in charge of defence, buit your each requirement or whim will be analysed, undrerstood, discussed with experts and then you will be given options, BUT FINAL DECISION WILL DEPEND ON US.Now you get the point how it works.
I do not see any air chief for that matter supporting the push for PAKFA FGFA after all its 5th Gen plane and China is going to get one soon, So how are we going to counter Chinese 5th gen plane with 4th Gen rafale?

What with Dien Bien Phu now We actually like Dien Bien Phu very much ! That was an epic battle.

I agree that a civilian gov has to arbitrate between numerous requests from the military. But if the military tells the gov year after year that they need this specific plane and not another it would be foolish for civilians to pretend knowing better and imposing another plane. Providing the budget allows for it.
After our last intervention in Mali , the Etat Major said they needed Reapers ... they got them Instantly. Le Drian did not beat the bush around , looking for in-house solutions, tech transfer or whatever. There was a requirement, there was urgent need, there was money, and there was the ideal drone.

 

[ersakthivel]

GIVE US ONE ONLY PROOF RAFALE WERE KICKED BY SU 30 MKI.
JUST ONE.
IF NOT CLOSE YOUR DIRTY MOUTH.

SO , if the french airforce fly a fleet of rafales over syria , then russians will smuggle their su-30 MKis underground perhaps??
if so why are the french seeking prior permission to operate in syrian su-30 infested airspace?

 

[ersakthivel]

Do I really have to post multiple YouTube links of various Air Marshals defending the Rafale deal ? I can do it ...
Of course there will be people who will pretend they are all on some Dassault paylist. But what is stopping other Air Marshals to speak against Rafale ? I have never heard one doing this ! Give me only one against Rafale if you can.

manohar Parrikar finally proved those air marshals are mere hot air marshals,

Most of these guys rely on the foolishness of tax paying public to push ultra exorbitantly priced few in number boys toys of a 4.5th gen planes into IAf and reduce it to a show case airforce, instead of packing it with cost effective already localized fighters like tejas & su-30 MKi.

And ideally wait for AMCA, FGFA 5th gen combo to spend one's hard earned money,

 

[ersakthivel]

No way ! No way !
There is no arm-twisting at all. France can barely do arm-twisting with anyone. Monaco maybe !
We cannot even do arm-twisting with a country like Niger, Gabon, Chad. They go see the Chinese if we try.
Also, if years of reading about Rafale deal taught me something, it is that IAF is really fond of Rafale ! You cannot deny this. So at a point the politicians have to listen to what their military say. I don' t know for Modi, Parrikar, but here in France most senior politicians are clueless about military .

IAF is now asking for MMRCA type plane , which again is a hogwash,

because no MMRCA has enough range to fly beyond Tibet & post a significant threat to chinese strategic target, & for Pakistan tejas su-30 MKI combo itself is a huge overkill.

So manohar parrikar-modi duo has wisely decided to limit rafale to a niche 36 number strategic roole & moved on to another twin engined or tejas mk1 -su-30 MKI combo for cost effective squadron numbers,

So MMRCA rafale being a burning need is thrown out of the window right now, Especially afer grilling of Tyagi by CBI airforce top guys have stopped singing rafale or nothing tune once for all.

Now everyone knows that mainstay of IAF will be su-30 MKI-tejas mk1A, mk2 combo, & if any one offers a cost effective , TOT effective bid on a twin engined fighter in a govt to govt deal, they will add to it.

But after recent news of FGFA being firmed up any significant rafale numbers beyond the 30 is once for all over.

 

[SajeevJino]

I do have some connections at South block, and found that many "news" that he posts on IDF are very much contrary to what "feelers" I am getting from my friends at south block.

I understood and one amen for you

And to reply to you, Do you have anything to say on Su-30 MKI edging Rafale during the exercise in Jodhpur? If not then there is no real point you to be arguing.

In Jodhpur Rafale didn't come with meteor to get a score over MKI

thus in Air superiority context MKI won, I've no problem on that

You might be an elite member, but that also means that you are the one to be having most discipline.

Sure..will try to calm down myself