Know Your 'Rafale'

[smestarz]

Oh stupid froggie, Commonality is a very nice term you use but for a very stupid reason,
I mean because we have 48 planes and in order to have that commonality we buy 36 planes at exorbitant price? What is the use of the commonality? Rafale as such was not going to replace Mirage 2000 thus, buying Rafale which is already too expensive, and we have to buy exorbitantly priced weapons and we have to also build air conditioned hangars for them, No real advantage
To upgrade a late 3rd gen plane and push it as 4th Gen plane and upgrading it as such, and then to buy a 4th Gen plane because it has commonlity with a 3rd gen plane is stupidity.

But on other hand, Su-35 makes sense due to commonality, India already uses 250+ Su-30 MKI hence the advantage of commonlity is better., further, we make most parts and so not an issue for spares at all.

Tejas actually makes best sense, it would be inducted in far bigger numbers than Mirage 2000 or Rafale or even the combined numbers. IT is designed in India and much of its parts are indian made so there should be no issues of spares of maintenance

As far as the Rafale Saga goes, rather than invest in buying a 4th Gen plane that is being marketed as 4.5th Gen plane or even 5th gen plane, it is better to go for a truly 5th Gen plane, It has all the technological goodies that France/Dasssault cannot provide or not even capable of. If IAF is indeed looking at the future then its PAKFA/FGFA and not Rafale. Rafale is thing of past which maybe only Arab countries are comfortable to use.

Why pathetic ? Mirage 2000 and Rafale have good commonality regarding weapons. And I am not sure that anyone wants to laugh at this idea given the money IAF invested in Mirage 2000 upgrade.

 

[WolfPack86]

Rafale deal: France rejects bank guarantee, awaits India’s reply.
INDIA IS yet to respond, either verbally or in writing, to a letter sent to Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar on April 1 by his French counterpart Jean-Yves Le Drian, who made what is said to be the “best offer” his country can make in a government-to-government deal for 36 Rafale fighter jets, sources told The Indian Express. The initial French offer for the 36 fighters made by Dassault Aviation was for around Euro 10.5 billion, following which the Indian side asked for a 30 per cent cut. The latest offer, made in the French minister’s letter, is of around Euro 7.8 billion, said sources. Days before the letter was sent, the French side had rejected an Indian request for a sovereign guarantee or a bank guarantee for the deal, and instead offered to provide a “comfort letter” from their prime minister.
As reported by The Indian Express on March 14, the law ministry had raised objections over France’s refusal to provide any bank guarantees. Asked about Le Drian’s letter, the defence ministry said it does not comment on ongoing negotiations between two governments. Sources said there was “a significant difference” between the two offers. The original offer included a ten-year product support period, which has been brought down to five years, they said. The latest figure also does not include the cost of setting up infrastructure at two airbases for two Rafale squadrons, said sources.
It’s learnt that one of the bases is proposed to be established in the east, to tackle the Chinese threat, and the other in the north. India will have to make a payment of 15 per cent of the total cost at the time of signing the deal, said sources. The first aircraft is scheduled to be supplied within 36 months of the signing of the deal while the last aircraft will reach India in seven years. ”Even though the Indian configuration is different from what the French air force flies, calculations show that the French government has agreed to provide a discount of around 7-8 per cent over its buying price. It will have to compensate Dassault for it in some way,” said sources. The IAF has demanded a fighter configuration different from the one flown by the French air force, including an Israeli helmet-mounted camera and a third-party weapons system. Price negotiations for the jets have been complicated by deals signed by France for selling the fighter to Egypt and Qatar. Sources said it would not be possible for France to go too far below those prices. Unlike India, Egypt and Qatar have opted for the same configuration as Dassault supplies to the French air force. Sources also said that there was a small window available for the two sides to close the deal. French Ambassador François Richier, who has been closely involved with the deal, is ending his Delhi stint in June. It would take a few months for his replacement to present his credentials and understand the intricacies of the deal, they said. The French establishment is also expected to go into election mode later this year with presidential polls scheduled next year.
India had announced its decision to buy the 36 fighters from France during Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to Paris last April. This followed the selection of the French fighter in a decade-long competitive bid for India’s next Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA). The 126-aircraft MMRCA tender was withdrawn by the NDA government soon after the announcement of the 36 fighter deal in Paris. Technical negotiations were completed earlier this year and the deal was expected to be signed in January when French President Francois Hollande was the chief guest at the Republic Day celebrations. But both sides were unable to conclude negotiations over price by then.
http://indianexpress.com/article/in...s-bank-guarantee-awaits-indias-reply-2817725/

 

[BON PLAN]

LOL, stop which one is Aston Martin here? At least give a better analogy, In terms of technology F-35 trumps Rafale. Try not to give examples just for the heck of it.
So. F-35 technologically more advanced, and bigger orderbook. I mean a huge order book and it has already got the Dassault scared yellow.

Also by the way, I do not think either Aston Marin or Ford, compare their car to each other same as Rafale fanboys are doing, and there lies the big difference,

It is known fact that a lo-tech compares their products to hi-tech, to try and show that they are competitive very much what Dassault, AdlA and Rafale fanboys are doing, You already realised that F-35 is technologically much better than Rafale and feel threatened by the possible future sales of it. I do not see F-35 fan boys comparing their jets with likes of Rafale, They dont want to compare with junk

Stop comparing orderbook ! Sure US needs are far bigger. But not sure F35 will be the huge export success the F16 was.
We all know, even USAF top brass, that Stealth is a vanished quality. Multi static radars and low frequency ones are coming.... At the end what will remain? A poor handling plane, with a low weapon capacity and low endurance.
F22 is a powerfull plane. F35 not.

 

[BON PLAN]

The right USAF decision would have been to buy 400 x F22, and complete by new version of F15 and F16.

F35 is the son of too much compromises. It is an average plane. Mainly made to kill european fighter industry.

 

[smestarz]

Order book is very important, after all thats where the bragging rights are.
How successful a plane is depends on records made and order book.
Did you ever ask yourself why the Middle East countries are buying Rafale and Eurofighter?
The simple answer is that F-35 is not available for them yet.
So their options are in a way limited to Eft, Rafale, F/A-18, Gripen and F-16
F-35 is not supposed sell huge numbers, as compared to how F-16 was F-35 is more technologically advanced and more expensive, same as M-2000 and Rafale
French are just too worried about potential competition. You are worried abt Tejas, Eurofighter, F/A-18, Su-30/35 PAKFA, and F-35, the reason as I understand is due to small military aircraft market. Out of these, Rafale is not the most capable nor the best, But yes its the most expensive one as of now. How many countries would buy Rafale? Maybe only the middle east countries which cannot buy Russian, or cannot get F-35, so left with either Eurofiighter or Rafale as their prime choices.

Not just US but its allies,

Stop comparing orderbook ! Sure US needs are far bigger. But not sure F35 will be the huge export success the F16 was.
We all know, even USAF top brass, that Stealth is a vanished quality. Multi static radars and low frequency ones are coming.... At the end what will remain? A poor handling plane, with a low weapon capacity and low endurance.
F22 is a powerfull plane. F35 not.

 

[smestarz]

F-35 will certainly kill the European aircraft industry, European industry offers less at much higher price, but from this UK is getting the best deal

The right USAF decision would have been to buy 400 x F22, and complete by new version of F15 and F16.

F35 is the son of too much compromises. It is an average plane. Mainly made to kill european fighter industry.

 

[Tactical Frog]

French Ambassador François Richier, who has been closely involved with the deal, is ending his Delhi stint in June. It would take a few months for his replacement to present his credentials and understand the intricacies of the deal, they said. The French establishment is also expected to go into election mode later this year with

With all due respect for our ambassador, Rafale negotiations can proceed without him ...

It’s learnt that one of the bases is proposed to be established in the east, to tackle the Chinese threat, and the other in the north.

Voila ! Seems that the Rafale is good enough to deal with these new Chinese 5 th generation fighters

You did notice? Thermal imagers for Tanks and not TANKS, Are we buying any Tanks, or APCs or FICV from France? NO SIR..Guess not really good enough for us.

Good optronics are just as critical for tanks that they are for fighter jets. Even the Russians went to Thales for such cameras.

 

[Sam Biswas]

Mr. Modi and Parrikar are not interested in buying Rafale. Maybe, if they drop the price 5-6 billion, they will reconsider. They are being polite to the French government and not openly rejecting the deal altogether. Why French do not understand this fact is a mystery. You have to be insane or get a lots of bribe to buy Rafale or any fighter jet for that matter at $200-300 million a piece. It is simply not happening, not under Modi. India can buy any fighter jet in the world it wants; why should it pay through the nose for Rafale? Putting that money to work for Tejas and FGFA are far more worthwhile. It will help India much further and for decades.

 

[WolfPack86]

India Proposes France Disposes: France Rejects Bank Guarantee for Rafale

France has rejected the offer of a bank guarantee and is now waiting for further communication from India.
New Delhi (Sputnik) – The ongoing Rafale saga seems to be in the doldrums once more, as whatever India has proposed so far it has been disposed of by the French government. France has also rejected a bank guarantee for the deal.

Dassault Aviation initially offered to sell 36 Rafale fighter aircraft for around 10.5 billion euros but the Indian government has asked for a 30 percent discount. The issue over the price has so far proved to be a sticking point in the deal.

Now in a fresh move to clear the stalled Rafale deal, the French government has offered a new price and French Defense Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian has written a letter to Indian Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar regarding the deal. According to the defense ministry sources, France has now offered to sell 36 fighters for 7.8 billion euros which is around 7 percent less than the original price offered by Dassault Aviation.
But according to Defense Ministry sources, the Indian government has found the latest offer quite different from the earlier one as it contained product support only for five years instead of ten years envisaged in the earlier agreement. Additionally, the latest offer also ignores the cost of setting up infrastructure at two airbases for two Rafale squadrons.



According to the Defense Ministry sources, the Indian government considers it has nothing to gain from the latest French offer, where price has been slashed at the cost of product support which is an essential component of the Rafale deal.

India is also concerned that the French government has rejected India’s request for a bank guarantee for the deal.

The Rafale deal is unlikely to be resolved in the near future as France will go into election mode soon and the deal will take a back seat.
http://sputniknews.com/military/20160525/1040217814/india-france-rafale.html

 

[BON PLAN]

Mr. Modi and Parrikar are not interested in buying Rafale. Maybe, if they drop the price 5-6 billion, they will reconsider. They are being polite to the French government and not openly rejecting the deal altogether. Why French do not understand this fact is a mystery. You have to be insane or get a lots of bribe to buy Rafale or any fighter jet for that matter at $200-300 million a piece. It is simply not happening, not under Modi. India can buy any fighter jet in the world it wants; why should it pay through the nose for Rafale? Putting that money to work for Tejas and FGFA are far more worthwhile. It will help India much further and for decades.

Keep quiet instead of saying such banalities.

 

[BON PLAN]

India Proposes France Disposes: France Rejects Bank Guarantee for Rafale

France has rejected the offer of a bank guarantee and is now waiting for further communication from India.
New Delhi (Sputnik) – The ongoing Rafale saga seems to be in the doldrums once more, as whatever India has proposed so far it has been disposed of by the French government. France has also rejected a bank guarantee for the deal.

Dassault Aviation initially offered to sell 36 Rafale fighter aircraft for around 10.5 billion euros but the Indian government has asked for a 30 percent discount. The issue over the price has so far proved to be a sticking point in the deal.

Now in a fresh move to clear the stalled Rafale deal, the French government has offered a new price and French Defense Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian has written a letter to Indian Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar regarding the deal. According to the defense ministry sources, France has now offered to sell 36 fighters for 7.8 billion euros which is around 7 percent less than the original price offered by Dassault Aviation.
But according to Defense Ministry sources, the Indian government has found the latest offer quite different from the earlier one as it contained product support only for five years instead of ten years envisaged in the earlier agreement. Additionally, the latest offer also ignores the cost of setting up infrastructure at two airbases for two Rafale squadrons.



According to the Defense Ministry sources, the Indian government considers it has nothing to gain from the latest French offer, where price has been slashed at the cost of product support which is an essential component of the Rafale deal.

India is also concerned that the French government has rejected India’s request for a bank guarantee for the deal.

The Rafale deal is unlikely to be resolved in the near future as France will go into election mode soon and the deal will take a back seat.
http://sputniknews.com/military/20160525/1040217814/india-france-rafale.html

Seems Sputnik is even not informed about 50% offset and not 30%
So if the rest is of the same quality....

 

[Bornubus]

According to the DM interview on Rajya Sabha TV show "To the Point" the the Rafale deal will be signed by next month.

 

[SajeevJino]

According to the DM interview on Rajya Sabha TV show "To the Point" the the Rafale deal will be signed by next month.

Parrikar is idiot when comes to clear defense deala , he is almost acting same like st.Antony

 

[ezsasa]

Parrikar is idiot when comes to clear defense deala , he is almost acting same like st.Antony

Nope, in my opinion it only shows how deals were done earlier. Basically they were done without having tough negotiations. I am assuming negotiations are getting prolonged because of the quality of offsets which the French are giving us in return.

 

[Sam Biswas]

Keep quiet instead of saying such banalities.

You should keep quite. You spit out bunch of BS about worthless Rafale. You and your countrymen would not be able to fool this Gujrati. It will not happen. Modi is just being polite.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Dassault , France have been negotiating for years now. Weeks, months , do not matter any more. Trappier just said to Reuters that the ball was on Indian side now. The output of Rafale at Merignac facility is now at 2 per month, more than enough for Dassault ' needs.

It is sad to say but if all these years were just for nothing, in the end it is Indian airforce that will suffer, not Dassault. But my personal assesment has not changed for quite some months : this deal will go through because PM Modi has put some of his personal credibility into it.

As a side note , Parrikar ruled out WASS torpedoes for Scorpene class ... Indian Navy will need the French F21 heavy torpedo badly. Probably a good time to get it with a discount, in a global package with Rafale.

In a package with rafale

Ha-ha what a joke

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Oh stupid froggie, Commonality is a very nice term you use but for a very stupid reason,
I mean because we have 48 planes and in order to have that commonality we buy 36 planes at exorbitant price? What is the use of the commonality? Rafale as such was not going to replace Mirage 2000 thus, buying Rafale which is already too expensive, and we have to buy exorbitantly priced weapons and we have to also build air conditioned hangars for them, No real advantage
To upgrade a late 3rd gen plane and push it as 4th Gen plane and upgrading it as such, and then to buy a 4th Gen plane because it has commonlity with a 3rd gen plane is stupidity.

But on other hand, Su-35 makes sense due to commonality, India already uses 250+ Su-30 MKI hence the advantage of commonlity is better., further, we make most parts and so not an issue for spares at all.

Tejas actually makes best sense, it would be inducted in far bigger numbers than Mirage 2000 or Rafale or even the combined numbers. IT is designed in India and much of its parts are indian made so there should be no issues of spares of maintenance

As far as the Rafale Saga goes, rather than invest in buying a 4th Gen plane that is being marketed as 4.5th Gen plane or even 5th gen plane, it is better to go for a truly 5th Gen plane, It has all the technological goodies that France/Dasssault cannot provide or not even capable of. If IAF is indeed looking at the future then its PAKFA/FGFA and not Rafale. Rafale is thing of past which maybe only Arab countries are comfortable to use.

Well I frankly don't want understand this commonality argument

On one hand they say rafale is modular design

And has modular LRUs and has a giant leap of advance against mirage 2000

Then they talk of commonality

How does these 2 work together

 

[SajeevJino]

You should keep quite. You spit out bunch of BS about worthless Rafale. You and your countrymen would not be able to fool this Gujrati. It will not happen. Modi is just being polite.

You are just a Modi fanboy..nothing else

 

[WolfPack86]

Dassault To Reduce Rafale Production If Indian Deal Fizzles Out

Dassault Aviation has said that it may decrease production of the Rafale aircraft if the deal to sell 36 aircraft to India does not materialize this year.
“The ball is not in my court, ball is in hands of the Indian authorities”, Eric Trappier, CEO of Dassault Aviation was quoted as saying at the EBACE business aircraft show in Geneva yesterday.
This is perhaps the first pessimistic statement from the Dassault CEO who has all along been upbeat about the prospects of securing the 36 aircraft Indian deal despite the delay in arriving at a contract.
The Dassault CEO was answering questions from media representatives as to the delay in signing the Indian contract. Ouest-france.fr which quoted Trappier also paraphrased his quote stating that the manufacturer may slowly decrease production of the Rafale to return to a monthly rate of one per month.
However, Indian Defense minister Manohar Parrikar was quoted as saying by Indian Express during the course of an interview, referring to the rafale deal, “Probably we are close to a final position, which may happen anytime soon.”
Dassault has two international orders on hand, one from Egypt and another from Qatar for 24 aircraft each, an order it expects to fulfil in 3-4 years. For this it has ramped production to two per month.
In another development, Early last month, for reasons that are not clear, former director general defense acquisition Smita Nagaraj was involuntarily placed on leave over differences with MoD leaders over Rafale negotiations.
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2016/05/dassault-to-reduce-rafale-production-if.html

 

[BON PLAN]

You should keep quite. You spit out bunch of BS about worthless Rafale. You and your countrymen would not be able to fool this Gujrati. It will not happen. Modi is just being polite.

Eh noob, just began to learn and come later.