Know Your 'Rafale'

[SajeevJino]

SPECTRA, Radar, Engines, even as Dassault claims that the skin is composites unlike Mirage 2000,
Thus the commonality might end up being several thousand Euros for nuts, bolts and ribits,
I think what they mean by commonlity maybe is that Rafale is just Mirage 2000 with two engines and canards.
After all Mirage III to Mirage 2000 to Mirage 4000 to Rafale is just modification of the base design Mirage III and nothing else.. Mirage III -- Mirage 2000 is Mirage III with better avionics,.. Mirage 4000 is twin engine Mirage 2000 with canards and more advance avionics. Rafale is remarketed Mirage 4000 with exaggerated SPECTRA
Everyone knows that Mirage 2000 is modified Mirage III
Food for thought
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...rage_2000B_top-view_silhouette_comparison.png

The commonality we are talking about missiles and bombs, not the $1 nuts and bolts

 

[Tactical Frog]

Defense Minister in Hindi is Raksha Mantri. Raksha = Defense, Mantri = Minister.

For some reason I imagined something more scary as Guardian of the Tower or something !
Any proposal for a Rafale codename in Hindi or Sanskrit ? I like Vajra for the Mirage 2000.

 

[BON PLAN]

You can see in this image of Mirage 4000 that its basically Mirage 2000 with twin eingine and Canards, and the same design was then modified a bit for Rafale
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-99B1wv5J3...assault++Mirage+4000+Jet+Fighter+Aircraft.jpg
http://www.aircraftinformation.info/Images/Mirage_4000_01.jpg

And this image shows how similar Mirage 2000 and Mirage 4000 looked, Mirage 4000 was twin engine Mirage 2000 with canards,
http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/759905M4000fev2582202jpg.jpg

Thus for developing Rafale the French did not have to do much, Dassault already had Mirage 4000 that was rejected by France and so all they did was tweak the design a bit and they had Rafale

It's normal ! M2000 and M4000 were simultaneously developped, with same engine.
France rejected M4000 because of its cost, despite French air force very interesting in.

First time spanish pilots trained against Mirage 2000, they thaught like you it was just a Mirage 3 derivative. Their desillusion was great : Their ass were kicked.

Between a Mirage 2000/4000 and a Rafale, only the fin is look like. Air entry, nose, delta, canard, undercarriage... are differents.

Fortunately the same drawing office made products with an "air de famille". A proof ? => F35 is a ugly brother of F22. But a brother.

 

[BON PLAN]

One should really commend Dassault, for designing Mirage III in 1961 (introduced) and using the same template for 5 decades !!!! Mirage III to Mirage 2000 to Mirage 4000 to Rafale, Am sure that Dassault will manage to tweak and push the same design for another 4 decades and possibly make a new record for a military plane, Highest money made by one design thats being tweaked and upgraded and used for maybe 10 decades (hopefully France will be using Rafale or its tweaked avatar till 2061 at least.. And this is an achievement

You're right ! totally similar

 

[BON PLAN]

The commonality we are talking about missiles and bombs, not the $1 nuts and bolts

and test bench, and some tools, and procedures, and suppliers (it cost in time and $ to change of supplier)...

 

[Compersion]

would have prefer that we buy a aircraft carrier from france that included a package of rafale fighters. a bit like what we did with the russians - vikramaditya + mig28K ... the french have the charles de gulle. and it appears to be nuke power.

because it seems we are talking price and TOT. perhaps we can make the initial payment and package better to france. we have to get full TOT including engine out of this otherwise it is useless deal. still feel out of all the choices and country to partner with at that time the best choice and transitional choice from before that carry from mirage was France and also for their support in past and going ahead in the future together all in one.

but doing above will delay and blah blah blah. there is also tint of UPA risk in this. it seems risk of people taking and asking for "credit" outside the purview of the GOI. the delaying probably is thinking this would agitate such. but such people might have equity and deliverable that would occur if deal happens and not by value of deal.

 

[WolfPack86]

Rafale deal could be concluded in June itself: Parrikar
Manohar Parrikar reluctantly gave up Goa's chief ministership to become the country's defence minister in November 2014, six months after the Modi-led NDA government assumed office. Since then, he has been busy overhauling the defence establishment, the 61-year-old IITian tells Rajat Pandit .Excerpts:

What changes have you ushered into the gigantic defence ministry?

The major change is the change in attitude in looking and dealing with different issues. There is more openness, more trust, more confidence, and the mindset to deliver, which was missing earlier. Things are now moving positively. On the welfare side, ex-servicemen have got one rank, one pension. There is also much faster handling of their grievances.
Then, the exercise to improve the teeth-to-tail ratio in the armed forces is underway. The aim is to improve combat power, while cutting down non-operational flab and old, unwanted things to reduce revenue expenditure. The Shekatkar committee should present its first round of recommendations by July. So, I expect all this to begin from August.

But what about urgently-needed defence reforms, including creation of a Chief of Defence Staff (CDS) post and unified structures to promote synergy among Army, Navy and IAF?

CDS, jointness and reforms in basic structures are all inter-linked. We are working on them seriously. If these issues were not resolved for 16 years, I think I can take a few more months. A CDS without jointness has no meaning. It requires a proper action plan for implementation over 7-8 years, it can't be done overnight.
The much-delayed modernisation of armed forces is yet to pick up?

We have finalised the defence procurement procedure (DPP)- 2016 to speed up the earlier processes. Acquisition proposals under the new DPP have already begun. The impact will be seen next year. When this government came to power, there were 388 AoNs (acceptances of necessity or initial approvals for modernisation projects) worth around Rs 5.5 lakh crore. Since then, we have given approval for another 110 AoNs worth Rs 2.5 lakh crore. But we have reduced the total number to 280 AoNs because we speeded up the processes and weeded out what was not required. Around Rs 1.5 lakh crore worth of projects have been ordered already. In the current fiscal, I intend to clear projects worth another Rs 1.5 lakh crore.

The estimated 7.8 million euros (Rs 59,500 crore) deal for the 36 French Rafale fighters is still stuck despite it being over a year since the Modi-Hollande summit in Paris announced it.
Some loose ends have to be tied up. I am out for eight days from next week. After I return, I hope to conclude it very soon. There is no reason why it should not be concluded in June itself.
But France is refusing to give sovereign guarantee or bank guarantee for the deal. What about the cost?
All issues will be addressed in the inter-governmental agreement (IGA) to be inked. The IGA will cover everything, including the guarantee. It will ensure that anything covered under it has to be executed by the two governments.

As for the overall price, I would not like to number-crunch at this stage. The figure will depend on the cost of the fighters, the cost of India-specific requirements, and the performance-based maintenance contract we want. Then, there are armaments like missiles and bombs.
J&K seems headed for a 'hot' summer with a spike in infiltration. Is there any change in Pakistan's support for cross-border terrorism? What's your assessment?




I don't want to say anything about Pakistan's attitude or the number of terror-training camps on its soil at this stage. But yes, infiltration attempts are increasing. But ourcounter-insurgency strategy is yielding results. During the current year till May 22-23, we lost nine security forces personnel but managed to eliminate 44 terrorists. There is another aspect to it. There is an attempt to flare up local sentiments in some areas. This is a new phenomenon which needs to be addressed by the local/state administration. It's not for the Army to react to it.
The PM is going to US on June 7. Will the bilateral Logistics Exchange Memorandum of Agreement be inked during the visit? There is criticism it will give basing rights to the US military in India.




We are trying to finalise the logistics pact as soon as possible. But the process is not yet complete. Apart from MoD, the document needs to be vetted by the MEA. It's a two-way process, with modifications being done by both sides. It goes up and down. Those being critical of it can see it after it is finalised. There is no point in putting the cart before the horse. There is no such issue (basing rights) at all. It's only about giving food, fuel and water, and that too for non-operational purposes.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...June-itself-Parrikar/articleshow/52459950.cms

 

[Anupu]

For some reason I imagined something more scary as Guardian of the Tower or something !
Any proposal for a Rafale codename in Hindi or Sanskrit ? I like Vajra for the Mirage 2000.

Gaurdian of tower. Hindi name will be given after it's inducted...

 

[WolfPack86]

Have sought report on Rafale negotiations: Manohar Parrikar
Manohar Parrikar has sought a report negotiating the price for the Rafale fighter jets as India looks at concluding the deal in a couple of months.
Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has sought a report from the committee negotiating the price for the Rafale fighter jets as India looks at concluding the deal in a couple of months.

In an interview to IANS, the minister also said that concluding the deal by June-July will mean the first of two Rafale squadrons will be in place in two to three year’s time. Asked about the concessions sought by France on bank guarantees, the minister said any decision taken will be “within the legal framework”.

“Whatever happens will be within legal framework, governmental framework, and according to what has been done in past,” he said.

As per reports, Fence has rejected Indian request for a sovereign guarantee or bank guarantee for the deal, and instead offered to provide a “comfort letter” from the prime minister.

“At this stage, I do not want to interfere into or influence the committee that is discussing (the deal). I have told them they should discuss it and put up a report on this… what is the conclusion of the discussions,” he said.

“If the Rafale deal concludes by June-July we will have a squadron of Rafale in two-three year’s time,” the minister said.

He said that deal is in its final stage.

The deal for purchasing 36 Rafale combat jets in fly-away condition was inked during the prime minister’s visit to France last April.

A negotiating team was constituted to decide on the deal and is holding talks with the French side.
The deal comes with a clause for delivering 50 percent offsets, expected to generate business worth at least three billion euros for Indian companies.

http://www.financialexpress.com/art...-rafale-negotiations-manohar-parrikar/267470/

 

[sasum]

Have sought report on Rafale negotiations: Manohar Parrikar
Manohar Parrikar has sought a report negotiating the price for the Rafale fighter jets as India looks at concluding the deal in a couple of months.
Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has sought a report from the committee negotiating the price for the Rafale fighter jets as India looks at concluding the deal in a couple of months.

In an interview to IANS, the minister also said that concluding the deal by June-July will mean the first of two Rafale squadrons will be in place in two to three year’s time. Asked about the concessions sought by France on bank guarantees, the minister said any decision taken will be “within the legal framework”.

“Whatever happens will be within legal framework, governmental framework, and according to what has been done in past,” he said.

As per reports, Fence has rejected Indian request for a sovereign guarantee or bank guarantee for the deal, and instead offered to provide a “comfort letter” from the prime minister.

“At this stage, I do not want to interfere into or influence the committee that is discussing (the deal). I have told them they should discuss it and put up a report on this… what is the conclusion of the discussions,” he said.

“If the Rafale deal concludes by June-July we will have a squadron of Rafale in two-three year’s time,” the minister said.

He said that deal is in its final stage.

The deal for purchasing 36 Rafale combat jets in fly-away condition was inked during the prime minister’s visit to France last April.

A negotiating team was constituted to decide on the deal and is holding talks with the French side.
The deal comes with a clause for delivering 50 percent offsets, expected to generate business worth at least three billion euros for Indian companies.

http://www.financialexpress.com/art...-rafale-negotiations-manohar-parrikar/267470/

I have a suspicion the French Govt is arm-twisting us to conclude Rafale purchase agreement with threat of toropedoing India's bid for NSG entry and pmt seat in UNSC.

 

[smestarz]

Then it does not make sense at all., We have more missiles and bombs of Isareli and Russian origin than what is there for the 49 Mirages. So in your "wisdom" which brings more commonality? The weapons, spares etc that is shared by almost 300+ planes in IAF at present or just the paltry few hundred units that are purchased for Mirage 2000. I thought you would be wiser in this regard, but alas you do highlight your ignorance.

The commonality we are talking about missiles and bombs, not the $1 nuts and bolts

 

[smestarz]

You ar saying that F-22 and F-35 are similar? Wow dogmatix, that is certainly excellent.
When a new plane is in exercise, people do not know what to expect of it and that brings in the surprise.
I think the Spanish pilots were kicked the same way Rafale pilots were kicked by Su-30 MKI during exercise last year...

You should know a bit of designing, that when you add an engine etc, the shape changes, The shape changes is because of more knowledge and new technology available, and also the need for design, But that having said, Mirage III to Rafale is just same design, Tweaked over period of time. If you do know how to see the designs, you can know that.

It's normal ! M2000 and M4000 were simultaneously developped, with same engine.
France rejected M4000 because of its cost, despite French air force very interesting in.

First time spanish pilots trained against Mirage 2000, they thaught like you it was just a Mirage 3 derivative. Their desillusion was great : Their ass were kicked.

Between a Mirage 2000/4000 and a Rafale, only the fin is look like. Air entry, nose, delta, canard, undercarriage... are differents.

Fortunately the same drawing office made products with an "air de famille". A proof ? => F35 is a ugly brother of F22. But a brother.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

For some reason I imagined something more scary as Guardian of the Tower or something !
Any proposal for a Rafale codename in Hindi or Sanskrit ? I like Vajra for the Mirage 2000.

Yes

Shikhandi = a name of Mahabharat time person who was neither male nor female

Hiding behind whom Arjun killed bhishma

Why becuase
Rafale is a neutered aircraft neither here nor there positioned in between light & heavy

Neither stealthy like f35 f22 not as capable as s30

And as Arjun killed bhishma hiding behind shikhandi

Iaf thinks that by hiding behind 36 rafales they will defeat plaaf

Only the difference is bhishma got wounded because he had taken a wow never to use violence on non males &. Non warrior and shikhandi was neither a male nor a warrior

But plaaf has no such limitations

 

[Tactical Frog]

I have a suspicion the French Govt is arm-twisting us to conclude Rafale purchase agreement with threat of toropedoing India's bid for NSG entry and pmt seat in UNSC.

No way ! No way !
There is no arm-twisting at all. France can barely do arm-twisting with anyone. Monaco maybe !
We cannot even do arm-twisting with a country like Niger, Gabon, Chad. They go see the Chinese if we try.
Also, if years of reading about Rafale deal taught me something, it is that IAF is really fond of Rafale ! You cannot deny this. So at a point the politicians have to listen to what their military say. I don' t know for Modi, Parrikar, but here in France most senior politicians are clueless about military .

 

[WolfPack86]

India is looking for a foreign manufacturer to partner with an Indian firm for the manufacture of second twin-engine fighter aircraft in India.
The Defense Minister, Manohar Parrikar in an interview with the Hindu Friday said, “I am not looking for assembly at all. I am looking for a company to join with an Indian partner and to start manufacturing here by Transfer of Technology (ToT) in most of the items. I know that 100 per cent ToT may not be possible and 100 per cent indigenisation is not possible. Even with so many efforts, LCA has only around 40 per cent indigenisation.”
When asked whether he had identified the proposed second twin-engine aircraft to be made in India, Parrikar replied,“The process is under way but that will fructify only after we complete the Rafale deal.”
If the Indian MoD indeed decides on manufacturing a twin-engine fighter aircraft, it automatically rules out the US F-16 and Swedish Gripen. The manufacturers of both aircraft have been courting the Indian MoD for setting up manufacturing facilities of their aircraft in India.
On the other hand it brightens up the chances of manufacturers such as Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, Russian Irkut and US F/A-18 fighter aircraft are twin engine.
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2016/05/india-eyeing-twin-engine-fighter.html

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Mig 35 MKI. Damn cheap. King of dog fight. Very good multi role capability.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

And I'm eyeing the engine inside that Aircraft. Somebody steal that technology.

 

[WolfPack86]

It is best that Indian Government select F-18 Advance Super Hornet.Alenia Aermacchiwas a subsidiary of Leonardo-Finmeccanica[1] (formerly Finmeccanica) active in the Aeronautics sector, with offices and plants in Venegono Superiore, Varese, Turin Caselle Airport in San Maurizio Canavese, Province of Turin andPomigliano d'Arco, Province of Naples.[2] From 1 January 2016, the activities of Alenia Aermacchi merged into Leonardo-Finmeccanica’s Aircraft and Aerostructures Divisions, within the Aeronautics Sector.
Alenia Aermacchi was created on 1 January 2012 as the merger of Alenia Aeronautica and its subsidiaries (Alenia) Aermacchiand Alenia SIA. The former Alenia Aeronautica was created in 1990 by concentrating theFinmeccanica aerospace and defense industries Aeritalia and Selenia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alenia_Aermacchi
Eurofighter Typhoon is three Countries fighter. The Typhoon was designed and is manufactured by aconsortium of three companies, Alenia Aermacchi, Airbus Group and BAE Systems,
Finmeccanica is banned by Indian Goverment guys do you think Eurofighter Typhoon has a chance in India since it is four countries consortium like Britain, Italy, Germany and Spain. Rafale is 300 million dollar per aircraft . So the only American option left to us. Italy will stall Eurofighter Typhoon sale. Both tejas mk2 engine and F-18 Advance Super Hornet are same GE F414. France refuse help India in engine development only America helped us. By the way Tejas Engine is GE F404.

 

[BON PLAN]

I think the Spanish pilots were kicked the same way Rafale pilots were kicked by Su-30 MKI during exercise last year...

GIVE US ONE ONLY PROOF RAFALE WERE KICKED BY SU 30 MKI.
JUST ONE.
IF NOT CLOSE YOUR DIRTY MOUTH.

 

[BON PLAN]

You ar saying that F-22 and F-35 are similar? Wow dogmatix, that is certainly excellent.
When a new plane is in exercise, people do not know what to expect of it and that brings in the surprise.
I think the Spanish pilots were kicked the same way Rafale pilots were kicked by Su-30 MKI during exercise last year...

You should know a bit of designing, that when you add an engine etc, the shape changes, The shape changes is because of more knowledge and new technology available, and also the need for design, But that having said, Mirage III to Rafale is just same design, Tweaked over period of time. If you do know how to see the designs, you can know that.

Unfortunatly for you, I'm a mechanical engineer, with a specialty : engineering study.... and you ?