INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

[Lonewarrior]

Well Gen Mikhail Kalashnikov caught us if guard when he saw our own made ak in one of our exhibition...
So the problem of IPR is there,&we have to solve it,we can't annoy the Russians can we..?

Gen Mikhail Kalashnikov caught us is not equal to IPR violation. Is it?

And how the heck is Klashnikov supposed to catch you when he himself blatantly ripped M1 Garand and named it his creation!?

How is there the problem of IPR if the expiry of patents, and that too in Russia is only 20 years?
How is there a problem of IPR if numerous US firms are making Klashnikov pattern rifles?

And as far as annoying the Russians go, it's the sole reason we are trying to please them by acquiring an outdated design and sub-par calibre. They were already annoyed by our growing closeness with US, Israel, France.

 

[pipebomb]

Comparatively paki G3s hits harder, while 5.56 makes up the lethality with ability fire more stable bursts

Firstly I would like to apologise for replying late.

What does "hit harder" & 'lethality' means in respect to soft skin target. Just wants to learn. It appears to me all that is matter , does a bullet able to penetrate sufficiently or not.

 

[harpreet288]

Gen Mikhail Kalashnikov caught us is not equal to IPR violation. Is it?

And how the heck is Klashnikov supposed to catch you when he himself blatantly ripped M1 Garand and named it his creation!?

How is there the problem of IPR if the expiry of patents, and that too in Russia is only 20 years?
How is there a problem of IPR if numerous US firms are making Klashnikov pattern rifles?

And as far as annoying the Russians go, it's the sole reason we are trying to please them by acquiring an outdated design and sub-par calibre. They were already annoyed by our growing closeness with US, Israel, France.

Well u give any thoughts the IPR problem is real&needs to sorted out and if u think that by making an early copy of F-16 & getting away without paying royalty to Lockheed Martin then ur fooling ur self to the core they won't let u off that easy.

Americans copied the GETMAN rifle Ka-98 in Springfield M-1903 when the Germans discoverd that the American have copied their rifle they demanded a huge royalty and the Americans obliged by paying it so get real my friend it's not that easy.

In today's world it's easy to make enemies than maintaining friends,&that too am old one...

Plus when the rifle order is huge then ur brain starts making the calculation of the cost and money factor comes in,all the things that have been dropped in our Ak-203 can be added at a later stage by our selves no big deal...

And the people who took the decision r not fools and expert on their area so let's no teach them what they know..

Secondly had we made a different designs of our own rifle although caliber could have ge same the IPR problem wouldn't have arisen at all,we simply copied the ak design and upset the Russians..

 

[Aditya Ballal]

Well u give any thoughts the IPR problem is real&needs to sorted out and if u think that by making an early copy of F-16 & getting away without paying royalty to Lockheed Martin then ur fooling ur self to the core they won't let u off that easy.

Americans copied the GETMAN rifle Ka-98 in Springfield M-1903 when the Germans discoverd that the American have copied their rifle they demanded a huge royalty and the Americans obliged by paying it so get real my friend it's not that easy.

In today's world it's easy to make enemies than maintaining friends,&that too am old one...

Plus when the rifle order is huge then ur brain starts making the calculation of the cost and money factor comes in,all the things that have been dropped in our Ak-203 can be added at a later stage by our selves no big deal...

And the people who took the decision r not fools and expert on their area so let's no teach them what they know..

Secondly had we made a different designs of our own rifle although caliber could have ge same the IPR problem wouldn't have arisen at all,we simply copied the ak design and upset the Russians..

Why pay an already high amount for a diluted rifle and then spend even more money to upgrade them at a later date when you can do it now only?
I hope you do know third party modification kits actually end up costing more or equal to the new rifle itself.
Especially when you have access to a rifle of similar specifications to the 203 of your own and access to good quality and cheaper Bulgarian Arsenal rifles of similar specifications.
CAPFs have taken full advantage of this. Kalyani/Bharat Forge is Arsenal AD’s Make in India partner.
This deal is exclusively political and meant to pacify the Russians and the OFB lobby and win votes in Amethi at the same time.

 

[Maharaj samudragupt]

Ak 203 won't come, I guarantee it.
Russians are saying that Indians are adamant on royalty issue.

 

[pipebomb]

Its funny how Chinese equipment doesn't have a ipr problem. Or atleast i haven't yet seen putin complaining about.

 

[Tactical Doge]

Firstly I would like to apologise for replying late.

What does "hit harder" & 'lethality' means in respect to soft skin target. Just wants to learn. It appears to me all that is matter , does a bullet able to penetrate sufficiently or not.

Hits harder............... Read stopping power,in regard of stopping power 7.62 (both Roosie and umiriki) is both ahead of 5.56 Nato

But from what I read, 5.56 can penetrate better than 7.62 Soviet (obviously you have different kinds of ammunition, but I'm generalising here)
There are several other members like Johnny Baba Ji (PBUH ) and others who have posted about this earlier, do take a look at their older posts and threads

 

[pipebomb]

Hits harder............... Read stopping power,in regard of stopping power 7.62 (both Roosie and umiriki) is both ahead of 5.56 Nato

But from what I read, 5.56 can penetrate better than 7.62 Soviet (obviously you have different kinds of ammunition, but I'm generalising here)
There are several other members like Johnny Baba Ji (PBUH ) and others who have posted about this earlier, do take a look at their older posts and threads

Now you have added another term 'stopping power', all this lexicon is very confusing to me. I don't want to be spoonfed but could you try to break it down in simple physics terms further. I really appreciate your help and interest in my question.

 

[Kartooz]

Hits harder............... Read stopping power,in regard of stopping power 7.62 (both Roosie and umiriki) is both ahead of 5.56 Nato

But from what I read, 5.56 can penetrate better than 7.62 Soviet (obviously you have different kinds of ammunition, but I'm generalising here)
There are several other members like Johnny Baba Ji (PBUH ) and others who have posted about this earlier, do take a look at their older posts and threads

Penetrate 'what' better?

 

[harpreet288]

Its funny how Chinese equipment doesn't have a ipr problem. Or atleast i haven't yet seen putin complaining about.

That's cause the Chinese have the licence to manufacture the Ak long back...and modify it according to their needs..

 

[Maharaj samudragupt]

Penetrate 'what' better?

Penetrate the skin better , what you thought?

 

[Tactical Doge]

Now you have added another term 'stopping power', all this lexicon is very confusing to me. I don't want to be spoonfed but could you try to break it down in simple physics terms further. I really appreciate your help and interest in my question.

Stopping power = knocking the soul out of a jihadi in a CI/CT ops
Stopping power is the ability of a weapon – typically a ranged weapon such as a firearm – to cause a target (human or animal) to be incapacitated or immobilized. Stopping power contrasts with lethality in that it pertains only to a weapon's ability to make the target cease action, regardless of whether or not death ultimately occurs
from wiki

Penetrate 'what' better?

The Jihadipigs's mother

 

[Kartooz]

Penetrate the skin better , what you thought?

Armour of course. All rounds can penetrate skin if they are fired from a decent enough range. Can't imagine why a 5.56 bullet would penetrate better than a 7.62. Would love to be enlightened on the subject.

 

[Kartooz]

Stopping power = knocking the soul out of a jihadi in a CI/CT ops


The Jihadipigs's mother

A 7.62 should penetrate the 6ft underground casket better IMHO. But hey, I am no expert.

 

[Lonewarrior]

And the people who took the decision r not fools and expert on their area so let's no teach them what they know..

Ummmm.....actually they are.

Americans copied the GETMAN rifle Ka-98 in Springfield M-1903 when the Germans discoverd that the American have copied their rifle they demanded a huge royalty and the Americans obliged by paying it so get real my friend it's not that easy.

Glad you mentioned this example.
When was "those seven" patents filed by Mauser!?
When did US Ordnance produce M1903!?
Were the Mauser patents expired when this happened?

Btw, US also copied the feed mechanism of MG 42 and operating mechanism of FG 42 in M60.
Any patents? And IPR violations? Any loyalty?

Secondly had we made a different designs of our own rifle although caliber could have ge same the IPR problem wouldn't have arisen at all,we simply copied the ak design and upset the Russians..

I'm asking you a very simple question. It can't get simpler.
Just mention all the patent numbers that are preventing us from copying the AK design.
I hope it won't be a big deal for you.
Please do it.

Well u give any thoughts the IPR problem is real&needs to sorted out and if u think that by making an early copy of F-16 & getting away without paying royalty to Lockheed Martin then ur fooling ur self to the core they won't let u off that easy.

Ohk, so you brought F-16 in defence of AK.
Guess what, you can copy F-16.

You keep mentioning IPR and patents and loyalties but I'm still unable to understand how are you not getting this simple fact that patents expire. Just 14 years and there is nothing holding you back from copying.

 

[Lonewarrior]

That's cause the Chinese have the licence to manufacture the Ak long back...and modify it according to their needs..

And when did Palmetto State Armoury get there license to make AKs!?

 

[Lonewarrior]

Firstly I would like to apologise for replying late.

What does "hit harder" & 'lethality' means in respect to soft skin target. Just wants to learn. It appears to me all that is matter , does a bullet able to penetrate sufficiently or not.

Hit harder and lethality and shoot to kill are all bullshit terms used by people not having a better understanding.

The only thing that matters in terminal ballistics is how much a projectile retains its energy at that given range and how is that energy transferred in that target.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Gen Mikhail Kalashnikov caught us is not equal to IPR violation. Is it?

And how the heck is Klashnikov supposed to catch you when he himself blatantly ripped M1 Garand and named it his creation!?

How is there the problem of IPR if the expiry of patents, and that too in Russia is only 20 years?
How is there a problem of IPR if numerous US firms are making Klashnikov pattern rifles?

And as far as annoying the Russians go, it's the sole reason we are trying to please them by acquiring an outdated design and sub-par calibre. They were already annoyed by our growing closeness with US, Israel, France.

They can copy the mechanism but when it comes to finishing ergonomics design they could have made some changes but they didn't

Heck they even called it Ak -7

That was the worst possible thing they could have done regarding MK he couldn't do much in reality but that was plain arrogant and stupid on OFB part.

Though we did adopted those copied aks in army.

 

[samsaptaka]

That argument can be made against any round, like a 50 cal is more lethal than 7.62 or a mortar is more lethal than 50 cal. All that matter is 5.56 does the job effectively to my knowledge. Let pak army surgeon worry about how to dig out a shattered round, even if he succeed patient would most probably left with permanent disability. Drawing disability benifits rest of his life, increasing pak army OPEX so a win-win for us. But if you go bigger calibre then hand held auto fire becomes progressively difficult. But that is too much good common sense which is an anathema to IA i guess also who can in their right mind doesn't want to settle in US after retirement with their children's future secured. Do not want to say more as any thing less than fouj worship is considered blasphemous in this forum it seems.

OT, but felt I might reply.
You have to understand the psyche of people in our country to see why "fouj worship" is there. In a country where everyone and everything in the govt is corrupt, the army is seen as a cut above and largely not into corruption. It's only the top level career generals esp in procurement that are corrupt and keep making deals for.phoren maal while keeping domestic product mired in endless trials. The poor jawan fights with what he has. So I agree with you when you say army must be questioned , but mainly its these top.brass who must, not the foot soldiers whose commitment and dedication is unparalleled and who sacrifice their lives for the country.

 

[pipebomb]

OT, but felt I might reply.
You have to understand the psyche of people in our country to see why "fouj worship" is there. In a country where everyone and everything in the govt is corrupt, the army is seen as a cut above and largely not into corruption. It's only the top level career generals esp in procurement that are corrupt and keep making deals for.phoren maal while keeping domestic product mired in endless trials. The poor jawan fights with what he has. So I agree with you when you say army must be questioned , but mainly its these top.brass who must, not the foot soldiers whose commitment and dedication is unparalleled and who sacrifice their lives for the country.

Have you ever been to defence canteen, a large percentage of people pickup tax-free goods and either supply it to their reletives or on make a little profit.Its one of the example of low level corruption. Its not exclusive to armed forces but every strata of our society. I don't know whether they are in majority but that is not the point i was making. Our armed forces are as much competent or corrupt as civil services, police or politicians, they all come from the same society. One do corruption according to their capacity, higher the post higher the capacity.