INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

[Lonewarrior]

Why is that ? Former has force wide application as opposed to latter's niche use. Or does he mean marksman/sharpshooter rifle. Or is this a gimmick as the gpmg market is already saturated. Is this view pravelent in army too.

First thing first; no. As you now the army is not interested in this.

Almost all big armies and specially US are now looking for a GMPG that can provide the anti-personnel capabilities of .50 BMG in the weight category of a 7.62mm MG. Definitely it won't replace a 7.62mm MG, just supplement it.

And for that the only round suitable is 8-9mm calibre ones. Which incidentally is also the de facto standard for long range precision rifles.

 

[Johny_Baba]

Why is that ? Former has force wide application as opposed to latter's niche use. Or does he mean marksman/sharpshooter rifle. Or is this a gimmick as the gpmg market is already saturated. Is this view pravelent in army too.

ah no he's just pointing at common scenario of using full powered rifle bullet for both machine gun and sniper/dmr applications; and based on that his offering of .338 calibre rifle and machine gun and so, and that also is logical-practical etc...reason why there is this newfound interest in the west for .338 calibre machine gun apart from usual advantage due to the round of course;
then refer to next post by lonewarrior bhai where he explained the argument further.

...but then he flips-flops over the .338 lapua (the one we have started using here) and .338 norma (? i dunno if we even use that one here) so just wondering what to make of this whole thing when he himself is doing this...

 

[chetan_chpd]

y'all nibbiars...plz remember this is INSAS thread...

chill and enjoy santra flavour only

 

[pipebomb]

I would request members if they would like to share there view on 5.56 & 5.45.

I mean did IA even considered 5.45 before framing requirements for specification of INSAS rifle

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

I mean did IA even considered 5.45 before framing requirements for specification of INSAS rifle

No.

 

[pipebomb]

No.

But why though ? Are drafting GSQRs arbitrary process ( atleast i hope not ).

Isn't both 5.56 & 5.45 were in service at that time in their respective armed forces when INSAS was in design stage. As i remember we were kind of allied with the Soviets (i not too sure actually) and Soviet equipment was in peak use in 80's & 90's.

 

[harpreet288]

I saw a jam occuring in Ghatak in this video at 01:40.My guess is this is a failure to extract from chamber,as the bolt carrier is stopped at the half length of magazine so new cartridge might get extracted from magazine but stopped in between from feeding into the chamber due to this failure and tip of the new round is hitting on the end of former stucked cartridge.

Visual Representation of what might've happened there.This gun is Ruger Mini-14.

Alternatively it could be a failure to feed as well,in which the round extracted from magazine doesn't get properly aligned to the chamber and stucks between the chamber and bolt carrier group.

Visual representation of what might've happened in this case,Rifle is Zastava M70 (Yugoslavian/Croatian/Serbain variant of AKM)

It's not a bullet jam either the video was cut short or the firer fired a small burst..of 6 rounds that's the right way to fire on full auto so that the barrel doesn't heats up quickly..

 

[Maharaj samudragupt]

But why though ? Are drafting GSQRs arbitrary process ( atleast i hope not ).

Isn't both 5.56 & 5.45 were in service at that time in their respective armed forces when INSAS was in design stage. As i remember we were kind of allied with the Soviets (i not too sure actually) and Soviet equipment was in peak use in 80's & 90's.

Well we were allied but not in small arms , those were still fn fal and Sterlings , actually it is first time that a service rifle sig 716 will be imported in such a large numbers.

 

[Johny_Baba]

It's not a bullet jam either the video was cut short or the firer fired a small burst..of 6 rounds that's the right way to fire on full auto so that the barrel doesn't heats up quickly..

just watch video in maximum slow-mo possible and observe yourself, i still think it's a stovepipe or some other jam...

this is the frame where it occured and it stays same way even after some more frames, also note the position of the bolt carrier in this pic, it has already passed the end of magazine from where it would pick up a new round and so, and now stuck somewhere in mid-way like this

 

[pipebomb]

Well we were allied but not in small arms , those were still fn fal and Sterlings , actually it is first time that a service rifle sig 716 will be imported in such a large numbers.

I remember when we selected south korea air defence system (bhimo or bhiko something) russian angrily protested. Then how did 5.56 get through without any russian 'halla gulla'

 

[Maharaj samudragupt]

I remember when we selected south korea air defence system (bhimo or bhiko something) russian angrily protested. Then how did 5.56 get through without any russian 'halla gulla'

It was biho system, rest i dont know.
I will advice you that don't consider india as a russian client state like east Germany or poland etc

 

[Flying Dagger]

I remember when we selected south korea air defence system (bhimo or bhiko something) russian angrily protested. Then how did 5.56 get through without any russian 'halla gulla'

Really that's your question?

 

[harpreet288]

Really that's your question?

The deal was a huge one and a big one,and the Russian defence industry was desperate for an order& traditionally being our friends they expected the deal in their favour...

Rifle doesn't create that much noise as big items do....

 

[pipebomb]

It was biho system, rest i dont know.
I will advice you that don't consider india as a russian client state like east Germany or poland etc

I wouldn't go that far to say that India is one of many client state of russia even though secrets of our underwater 2nd strike capability is at their mercy.

 

[pipebomb]

Really that's your question?

I think you may have guessed it right this time

 

[Marliii]

I remember when we selected south korea air defence system (bhimo or bhiko something) russian angrily protested. Then how did 5.56 get through without any russian 'halla gulla'

We aren't some russian client state that we have to ask them to change standard ammo.its indian military decision on what ammo to use not some igor or natashas

 

[pipebomb]

The deal was a huge one and a big one,and the Russian defence industry was desperate for an order& traditionally being our friends they expected the deal in their favour...

Rifle doesn't create that much noise as big items do....

Is there any study of effectiveness of shattering effect of 5.56 vs tumbling effect of 5.45 in terms of lethality or its consistency. I only ask this because i have heard/read some reports about ineffectiveness of 5.56(however i am not saying these reports are right & many other factors contribute to a successful fatal shot) but not much is known (to me) about 5.45(could be because of Russian secrecy or less proliferation of 5.45 in battlefields around the world)

 

[pipebomb]

We aren't some russian client state that we have to ask them to change standard ammo.its indian military decision on what ammo to use not some igor or natashas

I already addressed first part of your comment in my earlier post. Ofcourse final decision will be with MOD/GOI to choose a system or set requirement. But it is only logical that any friendly country (with MIC) which has defence ties with india will try to get their system be considered(let alone russia with their immense leverage on our defence establishment) even if it may not make the final cut. My curiosity is only because i haven't read any reporting from 80's or 90's on 5.45 being considered for INSAS rifle program.

 

[harpreet288]

Is there any study of effectiveness of shattering effect of 5.56 vs tumbling effect of 5.45 in terms of lethality or its consistency. I only ask this because i have heard/read some reports about ineffectiveness of 5.56(however i am not saying these reports are right & many other factors contribute to a successful fatal shot) but not much is known (to me) about 5.45(could be because of Russian secrecy or less proliferation of 5.45 in battlefields around the world)

The best answer is the American army and our own beloved Indian Army,5.56*45.has its own limitations which were proven in Afghanistan &Iraq war,where the enemies hit multiple time by,5.56 still were able to stay in the fight where as the opponents were firing a lethal 7.62*39 mm bullet from cold war AK..and causing casualty to the allied forces..

Ditto with the Indan army where terrorist couldn't be stopped even after being hit by multiple 5.56 rounds..thus actually demoralising the soldiers.

Thus, Americans r going in for 6.8*51mm round & we 7.62*51&7.62*39mm round...

Had the American listened to the Brits during the formation of NATO things could have been different altogether the Brits had proposed 7.0*43 mm or .280 round..but the American went for 7.62*51mm round and finally settled for 5.56*45 mm..

 

[pipebomb]

The best answer is the American army and our own beloved Indian Army,5.56*45.has its own limitations which were proven in Afghanistan &Iraq war,where the enemies hit multiple time by,5.56 still were able to stay in the fight where as the opponents were firing a lethal 7.62*39 mm bullet from cold war AK..and causing casualty to the allied forces..

Ditto with the Indan army where terrorist couldn't be stopped even after being hit by multiple 5.56 rounds..thus actually demoralising the soldiers.

Thus, Americans r going in for 6.8*51mm round & we 7.62*51&7.62*39mm round...

Had the American listened to the Brits during the formation of NATO things could have been different altogether the Brits had proposed 7.0*43 mm or .280 round..but the American went for 7.62*51mm round and finally settled for 5.56*45 mm..

Appreciate your response but i was more curious about 5.56 vs 5.45. My knowledge is quite limited in ballistic science(that's why i am here to learn and discuss these things but mostly learn), imho @Lonewarrior is far more knowledgeable in this regard.